Sugar vs. Grain

[Andrew_90]

Notwithstanding the costs or complexities in processes. Would a Gin benefit from a neutral made with grain rather than sugar?

[NZChris]

That depends on what style of gin you are making.

If you are aiming for a Jenever, or any style of gin that is usually GNS based, a TPW sugar wash is probably the worst choice,

[Yummyrum]

These guys use Tomato Paste wash for all their Gins which have won world medals .
https://www.dobsonsdistillery.com/

Was only up there a week ago with the SIL/BIL . Still had a big fermentation room full of IBC’s of TPW .

[Andrew_90]

I am making for personal consumption would like to up my quality if possible and cost may be the trade-off. I am rather happy with Odin's Gin and slight variations thereto and this will probably become my home staple. I will almost always dilute my Gin with Tonic Water and on the odd occasion Dry Lemon, can't see myself drinking gin neat.

I see Odin's recipe seem to allow for a neutral from either. While sugar washes are great workarounds for the newbie, for some odd reason I feel that making Gin from a sugar wash is actually cheating if that makes any sense?

As your home "quaffable" Gin, would moving to a GNS be telling in product quality.

Now that I have got to the point that I make a nice Gin (for me that is) I feel that experimenting with grains for a neutral would allow me to improve my craft and playing with grains will set me up to have a go at Whisky.

[Saltbush Bill]

I think that a grain neutral spirit "GNS" will always beat a sugar wash as long as its made with a fairly neutral /bland grain such as wheat is chosen for the job.
As Yummy said though Dobsons have been using TPW as a gin base for years and have won awards world wide.
My personal pick of the sugar washes to use as a Gin base is Shadys Sugar Shine, simply because it makes the best Neutral Ive been able to make to date.
If something better comes along one day then I will probably use that.

[bluc]

Depends what your looking for. If you want the alcohol to dissapear sugar based if you want mouthfeel "some" flavour then grain based. Wheat would be my choice.
But I am very new to vodka neutral..more into brown spirits..
Uj style whiskey makes a nice neutral better I think then tpw. But more a vodka then a neutral..

[Andrew_90]

I have been using SSSW exclusively now for some time so maybe I too will stick with that.

[NZChris]

After telling a newbie that he wouldn't be able to make decent gin using a grape based spirit, (because of the advice I'd read on this forum), I made a batch of gin using my grape spirit, made a very nice gin, and had to apologize for giving him poor advice.

[Saltbush Bill]

After telling a newbie that he wouldn't be able to make decent gin using a grape based spirit, (because of the advice I'd read on this forum), I made a batch of gin using my grape spirit, made a very nice gin, and had to apologize for giving him poor advice.

I'm sure that's a possibility, but first you need to have the right still and the experience to be able to make that grape based spirit well enough for it to be of benefit to the Gin.
Its no good trying to make a decent Gin if the grape based spirit tastes like the grappa that the old Italian man down the road from me makes, 90 years old and doesnt now what a cut is.
I aint making Gin with that stuff.
So the fact remains, most newbs dont have the experience or the still to make a decent base from grapes.
Once they have both of the above and have made a fair bit of gin using neutral, they will probably work it out for them selves that it is possible.
But then what is possible and what is best / easiest or most economical are far from the same things.

[Canuckwoods]

Of course, you can try the hybrid Ted's fast fermenting vodka

[ginfitz]

For gin, I just want to start with neutral alcohol and that’s ethanol, the purer the better. The botanicals are what should give your gin its flavor. Years ago I lived in Central Asia and drank some wretched grain based vodkas. One from Tajikistan was particularly bad and tasted like it had gasoline in it. I still drank it and was rewarded afterwards with a massive headache. I also regularly sampled some very good vodkas, mainly from Russia. Now I live in Central America and make neutral from white sugar. When I’m lazy, I can also buy imported grain based vodka. I can make a nice gin with either of these. Personally, I don’t think it’s worth the added effort for grain but then so much of this is according to your own taste and perhaps the cost of local ingredients and the amount of time you’re willing to spend. And, after one big gin, the source, ethanol from grain vs. sugar is a moot point, unless your “neutral” is badly made.

[NormandieStill]

My last batch of neutral was from Yellow Label yeast and feed grade wheat. I get the wheat for peanuts and for the yield it's cheaper than buying sugar at the supermarket.

Does take a little more patience though. You still have to mill and then gelatinise the wheat, squeeze the grains (not that there's a lot left over!) and cold crash it. I'd like to get my hands on a big wooden barrel and mash in a full 4 charges worth in one go to see if I can optimise the process.

I did a Wineo's POSW before this and I don't know that the end result was noticeably different. I am pulling my neutral out of a decently long packed column though. I suspect if I were potstilling, the sugar wash would provide a higher yield.

[Aotearoa]

I'm tempted to try grain (distiller's malt) just to try to be authentic, but I reckon if you can produce 90%+ neutral from supermarket sugar, then I don't think many (honest) people could tell the difference once you've re-distilled with clean water and botanicals.

[still_stirrin]

…I don't think many (honest) people could tell the difference once you've re-distilled with clean water…

I’ve distilled many sugar washes and many all-grain mashes and I can taste (and smell) differences between the products, even if distilled to high purity. It is the congeners that come along with the ethanol into the collection vessel that account for the differences even in very small amounts.

I believe that “experience” will teach you to discern the differences as well.
ss

[8Ball]

Of course, you can try the hybrid Ted's fast fermenting vodka

+1
I’m a gin rookie and Ted’s works for me. It also works to blend with a rich dark rum.

[Dgwyn]

…I don't think many (honest) people could tell the difference once you've re-distilled with clean water…

I’ve distilled many sugar washes and many all-grain mashes and I can taste (and smell) differences between the products, even if distilled to high purity. It is the congeners that come along with the ethanol into the collection vessel that account for the differences even in very small amounts.

I believe that “experience” will teach you to discern the differences as well.

I’m glad to see someone else has the same point of view. I’ve made several inverted sugar washes with DADY and/or Angel Yellow yeast and run them in a column still. They all had an off flavor that I don’t taste in all-grain batches. I’ve made the decision to stick with all grain for everything and not use sugar going forward at all.

[Demy]

I am often using a portion of grains or malt because they are a good source of nutrients for the yeast.