Vodka vs Neutral vs Additives vs Taste

[Dathhu]

Hi,

To start this topic, how many of you are happy with your neutral? Does it have any off tastes?

How does it compare to top shelf vodka?

Have you added anything that you think makes it better?

Are there things we can do at a hobby level to make something as good, if not better than the big players?

For fun, list your worst vodka experience




For me, vodka is an illusive beast. You're trying to beat out all the harsh flavour, but allowing a little... Some of that grain, be it wheat, corn, barley, you do want some of that through...

Balancing heads, tails... Apart from carbon filtering, I think big distillers are cheating more... I'm sure they're adding extra to improve mouth feel etc.


My neutral always had a slight bitterness to it. I chalked it up to tails, but after making repeated reflux runs, with more and more cuts, I'm just of the opinion that ethanol is bitter and additives are added to commercial product to smooth it out.

I've read that various different taste receptors work differently with everyone... Some are more prone to bitter, some less so, some almost none at all. For me, I can definitely tell the bitterness of ethanol, not strong, but it's there.



For me, my neutral works damn well as a mixer, doesn't stand up to a vodka soda though, or a straight sip. As I said, the lingering bitterness just doesn't work. Makes a great gin though, very happy with that. Thanks Odin for a great start.


Tried a small amount of citric acid... I think it works. A little acidity cuts almost all of the bitterness. Something I'll be testing more...

Any thoughts appreciated, sorry for the long ramble


p.s. my worst vodka experience...
Underage, got my older mate to buy me the cheapest bottle available... Was some brand like Ruskov or something, plainly pretending to be Russian...spent the next day driving the porcelain bus...

[Salt Must Flow]

I mostly do sugar washes, but I'm interested in doing some AG mashes. I'll be trying an AG Wheat Flour run soon. I strip with my pot head until my total collected low wines is 40%, dilute it with as much water my boiler can hold then do a spirit run with my 3" VM still using 6' of lava rock as packing (approx 3/8" sized bits). My goal is to achieve 97% ABV, odorless and as tasteless as possible. After airing for 1-2 days and proper cuts, it is very good and better than any store bought vodka I've ever tried or heard of. When people smell it, they always ask, "what is this"? When I tell them it's 80 proof vodka, they don't believe it. It smells like water, doesn't burn, no bite and as clean as I can make it. No hangovers, no puking, no head spinning or emotional roller coasters associated with heads. Additives or filtering shouldn't be necessary at all.

Some people strip their wash using a reflux column. They run it a good bit slower than a typical stripping run, but it comes out at higher ABV/cleaner than it does with a pot still. The spirit run cleans it up even better. Some strip, dilute, reflux spirit run, dilute and do another reflux spirit run.

What equipment are you using? What's your packing and your process? There's always room for improvement even if it is with the wash recipe, fermentation parameters, buffering your PH, testing/confirming your reflux ratio, testing the HEPT of your packing, testing power settings vs takeoff rate/ABV, etc...

Quick story. Yesterday my wife had me meet her and some of her co-workers at a local bar after work. Today I feel poisoned and hung over all day. Store bought liquor is absolutely horrible. I could drink MUCH more of my own product and feel fine the next day. I wish I could give the bartender a bottle of my own stuff and pay them to serve it to me

[Yummyrum]

Some commercial Vodka has Glycerine added to smooth and ads mouth feel .

[bitter]

I find neutral or vodka needs about 6 weeks post proofing down.

I've made some neutral mixed with water just has a little sweet taste nothing else. Also some amazing wheat vodka.

B

[Salt Must Flow]

I find neutral or vodka needs about 6 weeks post proofing down.

I've made some neutral mixed with water just has a little sweet taste nothing else. Also some amazing wheat vodka.

B

I used to dilute my product and bottle it at 80 proof. That was inconvenient and requires a lot of bottles. Now after making cuts, I dump it all into my boiler and use my bottom drain to spigot it into 1 gal glass jars with corks for storage. When I need to make vodka, I fill a couple bottles up to a line I marked (I forget what the volume was) with Reverse Osmosis water, add 750 ml of 97% ABV to it and shake it up. Even though this could be considered "not the best way", it's fine for me. I often have a bottle already made so it can age at 80 proof, but I don't really notice much of a difference. Not saying there is no difference, but it's nearly imperceivable to me.

[bitter]

I store most at 46 percent 50 max for neutral or vodka. 5-6g glass carboys are great storage with a cork.

B

[Salt Must Flow]

I store most at 46 percent 50 max for neutral or vodka. 5-6g glass carboys are great storage with a cork.

B

Yeah I have a 2 carboys and kegs that I used to use for bulk storage, but those 1 gal glass jugs are so easy to pick up and pour. I guess I'm a bit of a vodka snob, buy not a 100% vodka snob I'm always trying to improve things so I'm not married to any one method. I may one day dedicate a keg with bottom drain for bulk 80 proof storage. That would be easier than jugs as long as the keg is elevated off the floor.

[EricTheRed]

I make my vodka with oatmeal.
7.5 kgs of sugar and 2 kgs of oatmeal in a 50 L fermenter.
Stripped and run through a reflux for spirit run
94.5%
Family won't drink anything else.
Smooth. Sweet.

[Andrew_90]

Eric, what yeast you using with that?

Is that a Vodka you are making or a neutral?

[Saltbush Bill]

how many of you are happy with your neutral?

Very happy with mine these days, but its been a long journey.

Does it have any off tastes?

Very little taste of any sort.

How does it compare to top shelf vodka?

'

Are there things we can do at a hobby level to make something as good, if not better than the big players?

Dont know , Im not trying to make vodka and dont drink Vodka.....its all used for gin and other products that need Neutral.

Some background,,,,,, started out in the hobby using a T500, the first one or two ferments were turbos. Followed the instructions that came with the still, what was supposed to be a neutralish product to mix with flavorings, smelt a lot like Methylated spirits.
Thought there had to be a better way and found this place, learned about Birdwatchers Sugar Wash and making Cuts, started making much better Neutralish spirit.
Next step in improvement was learning about stripping the wash first and running low wines......this made a big difference to quality.
Somewhere around this time I threw the T500 owners manual into the garbage bin and worked out for my self how to run a CM reflux still......the slower the better ......not by temp of the water exiting the reflux condencer as Still Spirits would have you do.......more improvement and better cleaner spirit.
By now getting better at cuts and learning to dilute the low wines down to 25-30ish % to help leave tails behind helped more.
About this time The T500 went to live permanently on a shelf in the shed, at the same time a 3 inch boka with the right length column and proper copper structured mesh packing appeared on the scene.........yet more improvement.
The latest step in my quest to make the best neutral that I possibly can has been to use Shadys Sugar Shine recipe.....personally I think it pisses over a lot of the other recipes Ive tried for making a true neutral.

Things Ive learnt ......you wont make good neutral straight off .........its a learning curve and takes time and experimentation as well as the right still for the job.
You need a very clean wash.
Running low wines not wash is a must if you want the best you can make.
You cant be greedy with cuts , one jar to many from either end of the hearts will ruin the lot...........it aint neutral anymore.
All up its taken 10+ years to get what I consider "Neutral" and I'm sure there is still room for improvement.
I have a small stainless barrel where I store the best of the best.......its at about 38%ABV. People who have tasted it in recent times are always surprised at how smooth it is and how little burn it has, some comment that its almost like drinking rainwater. ,
I think that many people under- estimate how difficult it is to make very clean ethanol....its probably harder than many other spirits.
Ive always enjoyed the challenge, and can still hopefully get better at it.

[EricTheRed]

Eric, what yeast you using with that?

Is that a Vodka you are making or a neutral?

Vodka. Don't think my setup will hit azeo
Has flavour, but very little
I use distillers yeast

[bitter]

Yeah I have a 2 carboys and kegs that I used to use for bulk storage, but those 1 gal glass jugs are so easy to pick up and pour. I guess I'm a bit of a vodka snob, buy not a 100% vodka snob I'm always trying to improve things so I'm not married to any one method. I may one day dedicate a keg with bottom drain for bulk 80 proof storage. That would be easier than jugs as long as the keg is elevated off the floor.

Sanke with spear removed work even better as not seals to replace with PTFE!! I do have 1 corny for aging 5g at a time with sticks steup with PTFE seals but now have some sanke with spear removed.. Great for fermenting beer also!

B

[Andrew_90]

Some background,,,,,, started out in the hobby using a T500, the first one or two ferments were turbos. Followed the instructions that came with the still, what was supposed to be a neutralish product to mix with flavorings, smelt a lot like Methylated spirits.
Thought there had to be a better way and found this place, learned about Birdwatchers Sugar Wash and making Cuts, started making much better Neutralish spirit.
Next step in improvement was learning about stripping the wash first and running low wines......this made a big difference to quality.
Somewhere around this time I threw the T500 owners manual into the garbage bin and worked out for my self how to run a CM reflux still......the slower the better ......not by temp of the water exiting the reflux condencer as Still Spirits would have you do.......more improvement and better cleaner spirit.
By now getting better at cuts and learning to dilute the low wines down to 25-30ish % to help leave tails behind helped more.
About this time The T500 went to live permanently on a shelf in the shed, at the same time a 3 inch boka with the right length column and proper copper structured mesh packing appeared on the scene.........yet more improvement.
The latest step in my quest to make the best neutral that I possibly can has been to use Shadys Sugar Shine recipe.....personally I think it pisses over a lot of the other recipes Ive tried for making a true neutral.

Things Ive learnt ......you wont make good neutral straight off .........its a learning curve and takes time and experimentation as well as the right still for the job.
You need a very clean wash.
Running low wines not wash is a must if you want the best you can make.
You cant be greedy with cuts , one jar to many from either end of the hearts will ruin the lot...........it aint neutral anymore.
All up its taken 10+ years to get what I consider "Neutral" and I'm sure there is still room for improvement.
I have a small stainless barrel where I store the best of the best.......its at about 38%ABV. People who have tasted it in recent times are always surprised at how smooth it is and how little burn it has, some comment that its almost like drinking rainwater. ,
I think that many people under- estimate how difficult it is to make very clean ethanol....its probably harder than many other spirits.
Ive always enjoyed the challenge, and can still hopefully get better at it.

This is a great post and mirrors my experience although I am a good few years behind the learning curve. Nice to know others also had a learning curve. This post has encouraged me no end .

[bluefish_dist]

My vodka was quite good. Easily better than most mid level commercial. Took a while to get there. My process was a strip then low wines run in a tall packed column. Minimum of 6 ft packed, better with 8 ft. I did treat low wines with baking soda and let them sit for a week between runs. Proofing water was distilled. Was carbon filtered, then run through a 2um final filter.

Mash was 1/3 malted barley, 2/3 sugar. Opening gravity 1.07-1.075, red star bakers yeast. Would finish out in 3 days. Process was to mash in at 150 for an hour, then pump the wort into the fermenter which was full of sugar. Hot water would dissolve the sugar, then top off with cold water to required volume. Would be about 90 deg at that point. Add nutrients, citric acid, calcium carbonate and dry pitch.

Super easy to make and gave a nice barley note in the finished spirit. Really the trick is make good cuts and have a good column. I could run at 190.3-190.5 all day long. Took several iterations of column to get to that point. Also with larger diameter columns, orientation of the scrubbies was important. On the 4”, it was 4 per layer and then each layer rotated 90 deg. The 6” was one in the middle and a ring of them around the outside. Rotation between each layer.

[Dathhu]

how many of you are happy with your neutral?

Very happy with mine these days, but its been a long journey.

Does it have any off tastes?

Very little taste of any sort.

How does it compare to top shelf vodka?

'

Are there things we can do at a hobby level to make something as good, if not better than the big players?

Dont know , Im not trying to make vodka and dont drink Vodka.....its all used for gin and other products that need Neutral.

Some background,,,,,, started out in the hobby using a T500, the first one or two ferments were turbos. Followed the instructions that came with the still, what was supposed to be a neutralish product to mix with flavorings, smelt a lot like Methylated spirits.
Thought there had to be a better way and found this place, learned about Birdwatchers Sugar Wash and making Cuts, started making much better Neutralish spirit.
Next step in improvement was learning about stripping the wash first and running low wines......this made a big difference to quality.
Somewhere around this time I threw the T500 owners manual into the garbage bin and worked out for my self how to run a CM reflux still......the slower the better ......not by temp of the water exiting the reflux condencer as Still Spirits would have you do.......more improvement and better cleaner spirit.
By now getting better at cuts and learning to dilute the low wines down to 25-30ish % to help leave tails behind helped more.
About this time The T500 went to live permanently on a shelf in the shed, at the same time a 3 inch boka with the right length column and proper copper structured mesh packing appeared on the scene.........yet more improvement.
The latest step in my quest to make the best neutral that I possibly can has been to use Shadys Sugar Shine recipe.....personally I think it pisses over a lot of the other recipes Ive tried for making a true neutral.

Things Ive learnt ......you wont make good neutral straight off .........its a learning curve and takes time and experimentation as well as the right still for the job.
You need a very clean wash.
Running low wines not wash is a must if you want the best you can make.
You cant be greedy with cuts , one jar to many from either end of the hearts will ruin the lot...........it aint neutral anymore.
All up its taken 10+ years to get what I consider "Neutral" and I'm sure there is still room for improvement.
I have a small stainless barrel where I store the best of the best.......its at about 38%ABV. People who have tasted it in recent times are always surprised at how smooth it is and how little burn it has, some comment that its almost like drinking rainwater. ,
I think that many people under- estimate how difficult it is to make very clean ethanol....its probably harder than many other spirits.
Ive always enjoyed the challenge, and can still hopefully get better at it.

I think you and me both have started on similar paths, T500, turbo yeast, TPW etc...

This site really opened my eyes as to how much cheaper and better it is to ditch the turbo rubbish.

Even running a birdwatchers through the T500 was a massive step up.

T500 column hadn't been used for a over a year now, upgraded to a bigger boiler for stripping, but I'm still using the T500 boiler for reflux runs with a 2" CCVM with SPP.

I would like to increase it to a 3" on the bigger boiler, but space and height restrictions are the problem atm.

Been mainly doing a variation of Rad's All bran, but with Weet bix, being Aussie and all. Anything all grain I don't want to make as vodka atm... If I can source some really cheap grain and enzymes, I might reconsider but if I'm putting in the effort to mash I want whisky. Vodka is just for other people, but would still like to put out something I'd be happy to drink. Getting close, probably more than good enough for everyone else I'm letting sample it, but I still think a can do better.

Might try what Bluefish said, some barley, converted properly, sugar to bump it a bit. Will also try Shadys, just ordered some DAP will see how it goes...

Still, no matter what it's cheaper and cleaner on my head the next day than the $50/L swill here in Au

[NormandieStill]

My last batch of neutral was feed stock wheat and Yellow Label yeast. Stripped to around 30% in the pot and low wines proofed down further to around 20% then run through a packed column. Yield was not bad and could probably be improved by temperature controlling the ferment. I find it to be flavourless and without bite and it's made some nice gin and limoncello.

[Yummyrum]

Dathu , I was up at Dobsons Distillery a few weeks ago .It was Easter Holidays and they were flat chat doing tastings , but I asked Steven the owner ( who used to run Modern distiller forum) for a look out the back .
There , in a big room was IBC’s full of Tomato past wash .
He then strips that and runs it through about 8 plates with a packed section , then carbon filters it . No glycerine added .
Naturally I was keen to taste his Vodka ( which is also the base for his Gins ) . Gotta say I was absolutely amazed how clean it was .I well expected something unpleasant in there , but no .
I don’t drink my neutral as a Vodka , but I’m pretty happy with it . I’m keen to try carbon filtering just out of curiosity, just to see if I can lift it to the next level .

[bluefish_dist]

Yummy, I found carbon filtering just rounds off the rough edges. Sort of like a tumble debur for machined parts. Just knocks down the sharp edges. We could have easily skipped the filtering, but the way I read the bam, that’s part of what makes vodka unique. I filtered at 100 proof so I had some room for proof drift due to the water addition in the carbon. I would chase the alcohol with distilled water.

I also found the water you use makes a big difference in taste. We tried some really good spring water and it ruined our taste profile. Found distilled water worked best.

[Yummyrum]

Bluefish , I think I here what you are saying .
Last time I used Carbon was back when I did single run in a One Marble reflux still that averaged 70%abv from a Turbo wash . Carbon did an amazing job at stench removal .

Every step along the way , I have noticed an improvement in flavour ( or lack of bad flavours ) . From still upgrades , wash upgrades, cuts improvements . I really like the stuff I make now , and wonder if I can ever improve on it .
But thinking back to how effective carbon was at making bad swill drinkable, I wonder if there is still something in my nuetral that can be improved upon … I guess removed ?

[bluefish_dist]

I think the better your process the less carbon does to improve a spirit. It sure won’t hurt a vodka. I did find that even with washing the carbon before use, it still left some very fine particulate in the spirit. Hence why I filtered at the micron level prior to bottling. You could see a slight color change, seemed to be a bit more blue after filtering. I assume that was the carbon in the spirit.

[Northsouth]

I've been looking for a thread in here that discuss vodka. Have done birdwatcher and TSFFV myself a few times now, and the latter was the better. Lately ended up on stripping with a short 2" an 3" column (modular, 2" upper part) in moderate reflux for speed, but ended up with 93-94 and just kept the hearts as is. Really liked that. Then re-run of faints and early/late hearts at max reflux, long column 1.2m 2" at 1l per hour or less. This gave ABV 95.5 (use lava rock) average and I guess that is what most will call neutral, not vodka. Limited taste, no sweetness or any joy other than pure ethanol. Further down the road, I will experiment with mixing the first and the second. (The first I drank it all already:-) Also want to go for all grain, but step by step.

[Dathhu]

Dathu , I was up at Dobsons Distillery a few weeks ago .It was Easter Holidays and they were flat chat doing tastings , but I asked Steven the owner ( who used to run Modern distiller forum) for a look out the back .
There , in a big room was IBC’s full of Tomato past wash .
He then strips that and runs it through about 8 plates with a packed section , then carbon filters it . No glycerine added .
Naturally I was keen to taste his Vodka ( which is also the base for his Gins ) . Gotta say I was absolutely amazed how clean it was .I well expected something unpleasant in there , but no .
I don’t drink my neutral as a Vodka , but I’m pretty happy with it . I’m keen to try carbon filtering just out of curiosity, just to see if I can lift it to the next level .

I think I still have a bag of carbon stashed away somewhere, if I can find it I might try a litre or two and see if I can pick out any difference. Like you haven't touched the stuff since leaving turbos behind.

I might have to try and find some finer grade filter paper though, should know someone who I can get that from. I remember having some very fine sediment in those turbo batches...

I'll also have to try just proofing some down and letting it rest a bit. Never really had any sit too long, it's either been used for gin or pretty much just made up not long before for vodka drinkers.

[Salt Must Flow]

I've been looking for a thread in here that discuss vodka. Have done birdwatcher and TSFFV myself a few times now, and the latter was the better. Lately ended up on stripping with a short 2" an 3" column (modular, 2" upper part) in moderate reflux for speed, but ended up with 93-94 and just kept the hearts as is. Really liked that. Then re-run of faints and early/late hearts at max reflux, long column 1.2m 2" at 1l per hour or less. This gave ABV 95.5 (use lava rock) average and I guess that is what most will call neutral, not vodka. Limited taste, no sweetness or any joy other than pure ethanol. Further down the road, I will experiment with mixing the first and the second. (The first I drank it all already:-) Also want to go for all grain, but step by step.

Next time try diluting the hell out of your low wines with as much water as you can and do a spirit run. This makes a HUGE difference in quality and is considered standard operating procedure when making the purest neutral for vodka with a packed reflux column. EDIT: dilute to 15% to 20% ABV or so. Doesn't have to be 40% ABV.

When doing your stripping run, you can use your reflux colum, run it faster than you would a spirit run and the low wines will come off cleaner than it would with a basic pot still. If you then dilute your low wines with water and do a spirit run it will be even cleaner.

[Dathhu]

I also found the water you use makes a big difference in taste. We tried some really good spring water and it ruined our taste profile. Found distilled water worked best.

I might have to look into this a bit more too. I know every whisky/whiskey distillery loves to brag about their limestone filtered, pure spring, blah blah etc water. But whisky is a different beast and those minerals might help accentuate those flavours.

Whereas vodka, apart from the pure wank stuff like melted glacier water and the like, you never hear about any of it. Might try doing a batch with everything after low wines only being RO or distilled water. Maybe even from the ferment, but then I'd have to really pay attention to nutrient/mineral additives.

Next time try diluting the hell out of your low wines with as much water as you can and do a spirit run. This makes a HUGE difference in quality and is considered standard operating procedure when making the purest neutral for vodka with a packed reflux column.

I'll definitely agree with that, diluting neutral after stripping helps make it so much cleaner. A couple times I've even done a strip then another diluted pot run to help leave some of the off stuff behind. Helped a lot with the tails, left more nasty stuff behind on the second run.

[Dathhu]

Dathu , I was up at Dobsons Distillery a few weeks ago...

Bit far from me, but I might order something to try. Any recommendations from their range?

The fact you've given their neutral the thumbs up is a great boost to my confidence in their products.

[Saltbush Bill]

Next time try diluting the hell out of your low wines with as much water as you can and do a spirit run.

Wow that's an awefull lot of water in my mind.....exactly what ABV does that work out at for the low wines?

[Salt Must Flow]

Next time try diluting the hell out of your low wines with as much water as you can and do a spirit run.

Wow that's an awefull lot of water in my mind.....exactly what ABV does that work out at for the low wines?

Depends on the volume of the boiler, volume of low wines, but around 15% ABV isn't ridiculous I don't think. I checked the spent wash and it was just under 1% ABV. Yeah I exaggerated a bit because some have larger boilers and not so much low wines in comparison. Sure diluting it to 5% ABV could be going way overboard. I should have been more specific.

[Northsouth]

Next time try diluting the hell out of your low wines with as much water as you can and do a spirit run.

Wow that's an awefull lot of water in my mind.....exactly what ABV does that work out at for the low wines?

Depends on the volume of the boiler, volume of low wines, but around 15% ABV isn't ridiculous I don't think. I checked the spent wash and it was just under 1% ABV. Yeah I exaggerated a bit because some have larger boilers and not so much low wines in comparison. Sure diluting it to 5% ABV could be going way overboard. I should have been more specific.

Actually, that is what I did, did not explain it properly. I do almost 2 spirit runs for neutral, on to 92-94 ABV, then dilute to about 15, and then a slower one. Tried also to filter water with active carbon, and there was something meaningful in that, especially here where water is very hard. But I also like hearts of the first run, and feel the second run is almost too neutral. This is why I say maybe mix between the two in the future, 1 to 3 ratio, perhaps.

[Yummyrum]

Dathu , I was up at Dobsons Distillery a few weeks ago...

Bit far from me, but I might order something to try. Any recommendations from their range?

The fact you've given their neutral the thumbs up is a great boost to my confidence in their products.

These two are my pick . Can’t say I liked any of their Whiskeys

[Northsouth]

We want VODKA. Don't cofuse with Gin, which is neutral + taste.