Pot still to column coversion

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

I’ve got a 20 gallon pot still I’ve been using to produce primarily bourbons. I’m wanting to start dabbling in neutrals and was wondering if it is as simple as adding plates and a dephlegmator. The head of my still is 4” and attaches with a seal and a tri clamp. Can I just add a couple of plates, also with tri clamps, as well as a dephlegmator, and then connect that to my condenser? If this will work, how many plates would I need? Alternatively, could I just make a 4” copper pipe that I could pack and get the same results? If both of these are viable options, which is the best way to go?

[TwoSheds]

Pics would help (or if it's a commercial unit a link to the ad or something) but if it's tri-clamp you're probably on the right track!

I have 2" and 3" tri clamp, and have run up to 6 plates, packed, and packed on top of plates. My experience is you'll get a cleaner wash running through a similar length of packed pipe, but it's a little slower and a bit fussier to run. YMMV.

Either way I think it's good to be able to monitor, so sight-glass tees or a clear section on top of a packed column can help you know what's going on.

And of course the cleaner the wash you start with the better.

Consider your ceiling height or how high you're willing to go on a ladder to set up, monitor, and tear down all that, it's likely to be a limiting factor. Also consider how much weight you're stacking on your kettle, including packing and the weight of dephleg/condenser water. It all adds up quickly and anything more than an extra foot or so will likely need additional support.

Good luck!

TwoSheds

[subbrew]

My understanding is that you need close to 20 plates to make neutral. But I don't have any experience, that is just from reading here. As for a packed column you could go with many designs, VM, CCVM, or CM. And then there are packing materials to choose from, lavastone, SS or copper scrubbies, marbles... Since the rule of thumb is 20 inches of column for each 1 inch in diameter your 4 inch diameter would call for a very tall column so you might want to reduce it down to 2 or 3 inches. Also,do you have power enough to run a 4 inch packed column?

So yes, if you have a 4 inch triclamp connection at the top you have a lot of choices. I would start here viewforum.php?f=17

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Thanks two sheds. Here is a pic of the type of plate I’m thinking about using. This, of course, would be followed up by a dephlegmator and the head, going to the condenser. Height isn’t a huge concern. I have three to four feet I could add before I get tight on the ceiling.

A36923E5-8F4C-408F-AD20-C8D3CFAEBC63.jpeg

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

My understanding is that you need close to 20 plates to make neutral. But I don't have any experience, that is just from reading here. As for a packed column you could go with many designs, VM, CCVM, or CM. And then there are packing materials to choose from, lavastone, SS or copper scrubbies, marbles... Since the rule of thumb is 20 inches of column for each 1 inch in diameter your 4 inch diameter would call for a very tall column so you might want to reduce it down to 2 or 3 inches. Also,do you have power enough to run a 4 inch packed column?

So yes, if you have a 4 inch triclamp connection at the top you have a lot of choices. I would start here viewforum.php?f=17

Thanks, subbrew. I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading in that forum, just having trouble making heads or tails of it. I have a 140,000 btu propane burner, so I think that would be enough power to run that column, but I could definitely reduce it down if needed. But I do run 10-15 gallons at a time, so distillation time is also a consideration.

[StillerBoy]

I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading in that forum, just having trouble making heads or tails of it.

This statement is a good indication that more reading is required..

First a plated column ( a flute ) is not for making neutral but a flavors.. as for developing a unit for neutral, a reflux column is what is required with the proper packing..

A picture of your present pot setup would be of assistance in helping out..

Mars

[subbrew]

Thanks, subbrew. I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading in that forum, just having trouble making heads or tails of it. I have a 140,000 btu propane burner, so I think that would be enough power to run that column, but I could definitely reduce it down if needed. But I do run 10-15 gallons at a time, so distillation time is also a consideration.

If it were me I would go with a three inch packed column. Compromise of speed and height and weight. Working on this myself and been reading on packing. I had thought marbles but the more I read of lava rock, I am leaning that way, as it is cheap and light, as well as very efficient.

The other area to think about is how you run your condenser. I was thinking of CCVM as it is easy but I cool from a couple of 55 gallon drums so the temp will increase over time, not sure how much I will have to be tending the reflux condenser flow.

Read a lot and then pick your compromise.

[Twisted Brick]

There's really no getting around the required reading for making a neutral. Look up what HETP means and how many times a distiller's beer needs to be re-distilled to get to a 'neutral', not azeo. You should also come across the explanation that a column of continuous packing will allow you to run a shorter column than the equivalent number of plates. Like Jonny said, plates are for flavor.

Maybe this will help.

viewtopic.php?t=63103

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

That was a great read, twisted brick. It looks like if I want to make a neutral, then a packed column is the way to go to get a neutral. So let’s back up a step and determine what it actually is I want to produce. My wife doesn’t like the taste of alcohol. She likes vodka and likes to mix it with fruity drinks. She also likes flavored vodkas. I just assumed a neutral is the way to go about this, and then use it to macerate fruits to gain the flavors. Please correct me if I’m wrong about that. I’m trying to post a pic of my current pot still setup but the file is too large to post.

Subbrew, I draw my condenser water from a well and don’t need to recycle it, so I think I can get by with a CM column if that is route I need to go.

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Finally got it compressed enough to post. It’s a 20 gallon pot, 6.6 gallon thumper and 4 gallon condenser.

054FFF4D-3F12-46EC-8E88-F513B83DFB67.jpeg

[Stonecutter]

That was a great read, twisted brick. It looks like if I want to make a neutral, then a packed column is the way to go to get a neutral. So let’s back up a step and determine what it actually is I want to produce. My wife doesn’t like the taste of alcohol. She likes vodka and likes to mix it with fruity drinks. She also likes flavored vodkas. I just assumed a neutral is the way to go about this, and then use it to macerate fruits to gain the flavors. Please correct me if I’m wrong about that. I’m trying to post a pic of my current pot still setup but the file is too large to post.

Subbrew, I draw my condenser water from a well and don’t need to recycle it, so I think I can get by with a CM column if that is route I need to go.

Looks like you want a “panty dropper” type spirit. That topic is found in the “Tried and True” section. As mentioned above, lots of reading to be had. It can be tiring to hear it but there is much that has been talked about regarding the “tips and tricks” with neutrals. Some threads can be quite daunting and sometimes vague queries are hidden within offbeat topics but I assure you the information regarding the exact questions you’re after are bountiful and VERY easy to find.
Good luck to you BDC

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Yeah, stone cutter, that’s partly what I’m after. I have a panty dropper in progress now using the distillate from a sugar head off of an all grain mash. I have found that there are lots of hidden gems in threads that were started from a totally different topic. There’s lots of information to soak in in this hobby for sure.

[Deplorable]

You said you usually run 12 to 15 gallons. So think about how much "vodka" you'll want/need to make in a run and how often you want to make a vodka run. Then, armed with that bit of info, think about how much 80 or 100 proof vodka you'll get from a run of 94-95% abv spirits.
3 gallons of 94% makes about 7 gallons of vodka. That's a lot of hooch.
Now you need to think about how long you want to sit and tend the still for a given run. Because the diameter of the column will have a significant impact on the take off rate. If you have the space(height) a 3 inch column 5 feet tall and properly packed should get you in the neighborhood of 1.5 to 1.9 liters per hour based on my experience with a 2" packed column and just under 1 lph.

Consider converting to electric heat, and you can gain some advantage on height, as well as being considerably safer to operate around 95% spirits. In my experience I'm also able to better control the equilibrium in the column with electric heat.

Enjoy the education you're exploring.

[Salt Must Flow]

That was a great read, twisted brick. It looks like if I want to make a neutral, then a packed column is the way to go to get a neutral. So let’s back up a step and determine what it actually is I want to produce. My wife doesn’t like the taste of alcohol. She likes vodka and likes to mix it with fruity drinks. She also likes flavored vodkas. I just assumed a neutral is the way to go about this, and then use it to macerate fruits to gain the flavors. Please correct me if I’m wrong about that. I’m trying to post a pic of my current pot still setup but the file is too large to post.

Subbrew, I draw my condenser water from a well and don’t need to recycle it, so I think I can get by with a CM column if that is route I need to go.

A VM (vapor management) still is easier and more convenient than a CM. Just a turn of a gate valve and you can make adjustments to the takeoff rate.

I'd start with a good sugar wash recipe. I have been doing Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash, but with the addition of 1/4 cup of boiled yeast. Once you have very clean neutral you can make whatever you want with it. I've never tried macerating fruits and distilling it before so I wouldn't have any input there. I mostly flavor my vodka with natural oils or make mixed drinks.

[LWTCS]

Definitely prioritize getting your missus taken care of first.
Not doing so may factor into her signing off on future cool things that you need.

Random packing will make the best neutral at this scale.
The best method if product draw is a debated topic that may never be agreed upon.

Keep reading and see what shakes out for your build skills, understanding and budget.

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

You said you usually run 12 to 15 gallons. So think about how much "vodka" you'll want/need to make in a run and how often you want to make a vodka run. Then, armed with that bit of info, think about how much 80 or 100 proof vodka you'll get from a run of 94-95% abv spirits.
3 gallons of 94% makes about 7 gallons of vodka. That's a lot of hooch.
Now you need to think about how long you want to sit and tend the still for a given run. Because the diameter of the column will have a significant impact on the take off rate. If you have the space(height) a 3 inch column 5 feet tall and properly packed should get you in the neighborhood of 1.5 to 1.9 liters per hour based on my experience with a 2" packed column and just under 1 lph.

Consider converting to electric heat, and you can gain some advantage on height, as well as being considerably safer to operate around 95% spirits. In my experience I'm also able to better control the equilibrium in the column with electric heat.

Enjoy the education you're exploring.

That’s a great point! I never even thought about it that way. I’m just so used to running large washes in order to get enough 130 proof to fill my 5 gallon barrel. One five gallon wash would make enough vodka to last my wife for a while.

[Salt Must Flow]

You said you usually run 12 to 15 gallons. So think about how much "vodka" you'll want/need to make in a run and how often you want to make a vodka run. Then, armed with that bit of info, think about how much 80 or 100 proof vodka you'll get from a run of 94-95% abv spirits.
3 gallons of 94% makes about 7 gallons of vodka. That's a lot of hooch.
Now you need to think about how long you want to sit and tend the still for a given run. Because the diameter of the column will have a significant impact on the take off rate. If you have the space(height) a 3 inch column 5 feet tall and properly packed should get you in the neighborhood of 1.5 to 1.9 liters per hour based on my experience with a 2" packed column and just under 1 lph.

Consider converting to electric heat, and you can gain some advantage on height, as well as being considerably safer to operate around 95% spirits. In my experience I'm also able to better control the equilibrium in the column with electric heat.

Enjoy the education you're exploring.

That’s a great point! I never even thought about it that way. I’m just so used to running large washes in order to get enough 130 proof to fill my 5 gallon barrel. One five gallon wash would make enough vodka to last my wife for a while.

Well if you think about it, theoretically with a 12-15 gal wash at 10% ABV ... you should be able to get approximately 1.2 to 1.5 gal of pure ethanol assuming you're equipment is producing the purest possible. You won't get that much because after the heads and tails cut you'll end up with less. Once diluting 1.2 gal to 80 proof you should end up with 1.65 gal of vodka. It it were 1.5 gal of pure ethanol diluted to 80 proof then it would be 2.063 gal of vodka. Like I said, you won't get that much from a 12-15 gal fermentation/wash after your cuts. Also diluting your low wines down as much as reasonably possible will give you a cleaner product. Many say that you can dilute to 40% ABV, but I dilute MUCH lower. Even 15% ABV is not ridiculous. For this, many either do multiple stripping runs, collect until their total collected product is 40% ABV then either do a spirit run or dilute it even further to do a spirit run. Others have a significantly larger boiler for stripping. They do large fermentations, do a large stripping rung then do a spirit run in a smaller boiler.

[Salt Must Flow]

Also consider that if she doesn't like the taste of alcohol ... if you build an efficient rig, you'll make the best vodka she will ever taste and with no hangover.

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

I did some more reading last night, and I’m thinking maybe I should seriously consider a Boka column as well. The only problem with that is I have limited time for my hobbies. I’d rather spend that time brewing and distilling rather than building something and I haven’t found a Boka column available for sale that I really like. I may just go with a 3x48” packed column. Seems it would be simpler to build if I go that route, and would take less time. If I could find one for sale, I’d just need a 4” to 3” tri clamp reducer to make it fit on my pot. Gonna take a little thinking to make a decision.

[Deplorable]

Im a simpleton, and therefore went with a CCVM. Easy to build, cheap, easy to operate, and makes good neutral. I made mine out of copper, but there is no reason one can't make the whole modular rig out of SS spools and just pack it with copper mesh. Lots of members have built all SS CCVMs here. go read through the CCVM threads, and see if it suits your needs. Don't count anything out until you have researched all the options. Then decide what suits your needs the best and build it.

[cob]

Im a simpleton, and therefore went with a CCVM. Easy to build, cheap, easy to operate, and makes good neutral. I made mine out of copper, but there is no reason one can't make the whole modular rig out of SS spools and just pack it with copper mesh. Lots of members have built all SS CCVMs here. go read through the CCVM threads, and see if it suits your needs. Don't count anything out until you have researched all the options. Then decide what suits your needs the best and build it.

+11

[Salt Must Flow]

Im a simpleton, and therefore went with a CCVM. Easy to build, cheap, easy to operate, and makes good neutral. I made mine out of copper, but there is no reason one can't make the whole modular rig out of SS spools and just pack it with copper mesh. Lots of members have built all SS CCVMs here. go read through the CCVM threads, and see if it suits your needs. Don't count anything out until you have researched all the options. Then decide what suits your needs the best and build it.

+11

-11

Ask those same people if they've ever ran a CCVM in comparison to VM and ask which they prefer to use. I'd guarantee they haven't tried VM and haven't tried lava rock instead of using entirely copper mesh packing. Copper mesh and/or stainless scrubbers doesn't even hold a candle to properly sized lava rock. That is a fact. It's not even in question unless you're reading really old posts.

[Saltbush Bill]

Nothing wrong with copper mesh.....it does the job just fine......if it doesn't you need to work on improving your still.

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

So I just did quite a bit of reading about Dad300’s Ccvm design it it sounds like maybe what I’m looking for. Especially the ease of building it. But, I have a couple of questions.

How do you adjust the height of the condenser? I didn’t see that mentioned anywhere. Is it as simple as placing a rod or bar across the coils and letting it rest on top of the column? Or is it supposed to be a friction fit in the column and friction is all that holds it in place?

Also, I have no interest in running my product condenser straight back down parallel to the column. I heat with gas and having 95% alcohol dropping a live an open flame is a no go for me. Can I angle my product condenser away from the fire and have that work? I’m thinking of going with a shotgun condenser. Will it work on an angle or does it have to be completely vertical to be effective?

[EricTheRed]

Also, I have no interest in running my product condenser straight back down parallel to the column. I heat with gas and having 95% alcohol dropping a live an open flame is a no go for me. Can I angle my product condenser away from the fire and have that work? I’m thinking of going with a shotgun condenser. Will it work on an angle or does it have to be completely vertical to be effective?

My 2 cents
i have a 60cm SS 2" Shotgun - does NOT really like running on an angle - i get this pulsing of the output, - don't get it vertical (or near as dammit vertical)
So, i run it straight down, and then have the output running away from the output to my collection jar
you do need a bit of extra height to be able to get it horizontally away from the burner

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Also, I have no interest in running my product condenser straight back down parallel to the column. I heat with gas and having 95% alcohol dropping a live an open flame is a no go for me. Can I angle my product condenser away from the fire and have that work? I’m thinking of going with a shotgun condenser. Will it work on an angle or does it have to be completely vertical to be effective?

My 2 cents
i have a 60cm SS 2" Shotgun - does NOT really like running on an angle - i get this pulsing of the output, - don't get it vertical (or near as dammit vertical)
So, i run it straight down, and then have the output running away from the output to my collection jar
you do need a bit of extra height to be able to get it horizontally away from the burner

That was another thought I had. Maybe just run the shotgun condenser vertically and then come off the bottom with a tube running at a 30° to 45° angle to move the product away from the flame.

[Stonecutter]

Yes it’s as simple as adding a rod to adjust the height. Some folks have pretty intricate ways to adjust the coil height.viewtopic.php?f=50&t=84986

Yes, you can angle that Product condenser, pooling will not be an issue with a properly built condenser TwistedBrick has some pictures of a similar setup somewhere around here.

[Twisted Brick]

Also, I have no interest in running my product condenser straight back down parallel to the column. I heat with gas and having 95% alcohol dropping a live an open flame is a no go for me. Can I angle my product condenser away from the fire and have that work? I’m thinking of going with a shotgun condenser. Will it work on an angle or does it have to be completely vertical to be effective?

Some distillers run their shotguns vertically and extend the final collection tube away from the still. There are a number of solutions listed here . Yummy's is the most elegant because it is adjustable, IMO.

Part of a condenser's efficiency is a function of the amount of dwell time the vapor/condensate sees before exiting. Angling the condenser can increase dwell time, and in the case of a multiple-vapor tube configuration (shotgun) the dwell time is also increased due to a lower aggregate vapor speed.

[bunny]

I did some more reading last night, and I’m thinking maybe I should seriously consider a Boka column as well. The only problem with that is I have limited time for my hobbies. I’d rather spend that time brewing and distilling rather than building something and I haven’t found a Boka column available for sale that I really like. I may just go with a 3x48” packed column. Seems it would be simpler to build if I go that route, and would take less time. If I could find one for sale, I’d just need a 4” to 3” tri clamp reducer to make it fit on my pot. Gonna take a little thinking to make a decision.

BDC:
You have gotten some pretty good advice so far.
I'll throw you a slow curve.

First I wouldn't touch Dr. Zarkoff's beautiful ship for any reason.
It will make excellent low wines strips for your complete new rig as well as what you have been doing.

I like your thoughts about a Boka, but really no need for both LM and VM setups.

Source a used short pony keg (7.75g).
Failing that, possibly a tall pony (7.75g) or, last choice, a sixtel keg.
Attach a 1" half coupling to screw in a 1500w element.
You won't really need any more holes because you should only be using clean clear strip for neutral. Need for interior access is minimal or nonexistent.
Attach 150cm/60" of 2" column filled with appropriate sized black lava ( or, if you want to throw money at it, spp).
Fit your favorite LM head and you are in business.
You will probably not NEED a controller.
I run mine without a controller as 1500w will not flood my 2" at full reflux.
Also no need for a PC.
No need for copper anywhere in this build if you strip with the big mother ship.

Typically with 64lbs of sugar in 48 total gallons of wash I end up with 8 liters of 97% or about 19 liters of 80 proof vodka. That's a lot of vodka and were talking a 2" column.

Good luck which ever way you go.
Have some fun,
Stay safe!