Toasting Your Own Grains

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

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Avalir
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Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

Hey y'all,
[If you're only interested in how-to instructions, you can skip to the bottom section of the post]

So I wanted to make a quick post about this as I know I had a challenge yielding even vaguely helpful/insightful results via internet search. The most I was able to find seemed to be in the beer forums and usually pertained to toasting malt. I had an interest in toasting not only for added flavors and complexity, but also removal/reduction of less desirable flavors--when I first incorporated whole wheat into the grain bill, I was able to detect a very slight grassy flavor in the distillate, it wasn't terrible, but not fitting the profile I like and am pursuing.
This post is, of course, regarding toasting your own grains at home. I may be jumping the gun on this post as I won't even begin mashing my first attempt at home toasted grains until tomorrow. That being said, feel free to add or correct me if you feel the urge.
As a disclaimer, I've only toasted whole oats and whole wheat so far, but from what I've experienced the process, time, and temperature all ended up identical between the two and I'm confident it can be applied to most other whole grains also.
I did this using whole (non-crushed) grains. Set oven to 300F (I have a propane conventional oven)--I suspect up to 325F can also perform well, but low and slow will always give you more control and usually more satisfying results (as with most anything aside from a strip run). Just used a standard baking sheet lined with parchment (I feared aluminum foil may overdo the toast of the exterior without it being able to toast throughout). I found that 3lbs of either grain was the ideal fill; per the beer forums, people reccomended not more than 1/2 inch deep and I recall mention of someone attempting a 5lb load and will not do again (they didn't elaborate on the outcome, so I can only speculate). I did the oats and wheat on their own, one tray at a time, placed on the center oven rack to reduce variables. I briefly removed every 15 minutes to give the grains a quick stir before returning to the oven to ensure even/consistent toasting. Obviously, how long you toast depends on what flavors you're after, but this will likely be 30-90 minutes; I did mine for 90. As a tip, trust your nose for toasting (for anyone that's toasted your own wood, you know what I'm talking about).
While toasting the whole wheat, at the beginning, the primary aroma detected was grassy. At around 45 minutes it began to smell like sweet oatmeal cookies and the grassy odor began to wane. Around 75 minutes I was no longer noticing grassy aromas and it began to get a hint of carmel.
While toasting whole oats, it began similar to the wheat--grassy. Around 45 minutes, the grassy aromas waned and it began to smell like oats (not as much of a dramatic transformation as the wheat, I know). Around 60 minutes it definitely began to get some toasty scents. Around 75 minutes, the grassy odor was no longer present and a fresh bread aroma was mingled with the toasted oat aroma.
I immediately dumped the grains from the hot tray to paper bags for temporary storage so they wouldn't over-toast on the hot tray.

You probably could crush before, but that'll likely cause a quicker toast. I personally will continue whole for a couple reasons: flavor preservation--flavor fades the longer it lays around crushed, and the more exciting reason being crushing my toasted wheat was nearly as easy as crushing my malt--no straining required (for those that haven't crushed whole wheat berries, it is a royle pain--much much more strenuous than corn in my humble opinion).

I also want to add that the beer guys also reccomend letting toasted grains rest for anywhere from a day to a week in a paper bag. They advise mashing fresh toasted grains tend to impart an astringent taste in the beer. Not sure if we'd notice much after distilling, but it can't hurt to let rest.

So just a quick recap/toasting instructions for those that didn't want the long read:

Preheat oven to 300F (I have a propane conventional oven).
Line a baking sheet with parchment paper. Fill baking sheet with 3lbs of whole (non-crushed) grains. Spread the grains even across the baking sheet.
Place the baking sheet on the center rack of the oven.
Remove grains every 15 minutes to give then a quick stir to ensure even toasting and then place back in the oven.
Use your nose to determine ideal cook time. Cook time will likely be 30-90 minutes unless you're going for a much darker toast (I toasted for 90 minutes).
When toasting is complete, immediately transfer toasted grains into a paper bag to avoid over-toasting on a hot tray.
Let the toasted grains rest for several days in the paper bag prior to use (supposedly to avoid astringent tastes, or at least when used for beer).


Just thought I'd share in case anyone else was curious and/or having difficulty locating information/instructions.
Feel free to add to this or give feedback!
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

Making preparations for mashing, so I figured I'd add some extra notes.
As mentioned in the long original post, the wheat berries became extremely easy to crush after toasting; no more difficult than crushing malt. The wheat also had a very nice toasty aroma upon crushing. They smell like toasty mini wheats (the cereal). Untoasted wheat had a very mild grass/animal feed odor, which isn't detectable in the toasted.
The oats were of course just as easy to crush (I've always found them the easiest grain to send through the crusher). Aromas of sweet oats, slightly toasty. Day and night comparison to whole, untoasted--whole oats smell strongly of horse feed, which isn't present after toasting.

I'll be sure to add to this as I make notes on observations during fermentation, after stripping, and after the spirit run. These are both going in my bourbon mash (64% corn, 20% barley malt [10% pale, 10% vienna], 10% toasted oats, 6% toasted wheat).
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by subbrew »

Great write up. Are you going to mash them with enzymes? or just using them for flavor?

If mashing, I would be interested to see how they yield compared to untoasted grains.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

I do add enzymes, just to help yield as I have a tendency to multitask and my temperatures aren't always precise. The high temp alpha enzymes are also a life saver gelatinizating corn. So I'm sure my yield likely won't be affected, or at least minimally. But with toasting, I was predominantly interested in the flavors. In the mashing process, there were some very nice toasty aromas, but didn't overwhelm the corn at all. It actually complimented the corn very well. Its halfway through fermentation (I let it go about a week to work with my schedule). Using bakers yeast. Excited to see how it turns out.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

Also should include I ferment off the grain to spare myself the mess post-ferment and so I can give the spent grains to the chickens as scratch.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

I'll definitely let you know about yield, usually with the same grain bill (non-toasted) I'll usually land right around 7%. I don't usually take gravity measurements after mashing, just post-ferment to make extra sure nothing went wrong then estimate yield based on abv after stripping.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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subbrew wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:11 pm Great write up. Are you going to mash them with enzymes? or just using them for flavor?

If mashing, I would be interested to see how they yield compared to untoasted grains.
Sorry, was trying to write up a response while at work and did a rush job and don't think I addressed the question too clearly.

But yes, I am mashing. This is of course an AG mash. I do also end up adding extra enzymes just as a precaution to try to ensure maximum saccharification. Usually I'll yield right around 7% with this grain bill (non-toasted), though I typically don't bother taking a gravity reading after mashing, rather I calculate an estimated yield with the abv of low wines after the strip run.
I'll definitely let you know if there's any noticable difference in yield. I'll do my strip run in a few days. I'm anticipating the yield shouldn't be impacted, or at least not much, as I didn't toast the oats or wheat too dark.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

So, I got a bit over-eager and decided to get an early specific gravity reading. Clocked in at 0.997 with about 60hrs to go before I strip. A few small bubbles at the top, so there may still be a little yeast activity. Normally by stripping time, it'll read somewhere in the 0.992-0.997 range, so I'd speculate at this time that with my toast level the yield should be about identical.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

Tomorrow is stripping day! So I'm here with a brief update. As part of my practice, I like to rack the day before I strip, so any extra gunk I carry over racking will settle out and be removed before I put it in the boiler. It's planned as a 7 day ferment and I haven't observed and negative impact from racking after 6 day--I mean, it technically could've been called done 2 days before I racked.

Specific gravity reading is now at 0.994. I think it's fair to speculate this amount of toast didn't impact the yield.

The wash still has a very corn forward aroma. The specific toasted grains can't be singled out in the smell. However, I will say aroma is definitely more robust that hits on a more full-bodied beer note, for lack of a better way to describe it, than this bill would when using untoasted.

At this point in the process, the toasted grains (and toast level) definitely seem to be a big compliment to my bourbon mash.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Demy »

I self -produce my malt both the base and the special grains. Some are easy to obtain, others have a more complex procedure.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Demy wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:51 am I self -produce my malt both the base and the special grains. Some are easy to obtain, others have a more complex procedure.
I believe it. I need to start malting my own grains, hate what they charge for malt.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

Stripping is going great. It's giving off an aroma that's almost spot on for cheesecake, its it's fantastic.

On a side note, this is also the first batch I've made since buying a new house. Have the most delicious well water here (I never knew water could be so good). No smells can be detected even when boiling the water... at the old place, there was a spike in the chlorine and other chemicals in the municipal water that was making quality an uphill battle.
Just wanted to add that side note as I'm unsure how much of the improvements may be related to the water.
The well was actually one of the selling points for me as I stuck my head under the faucet like a lunatic in front of the realtor with this hobby in mind when I did it.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Good well water is gold.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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EricTheRed wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:42 am Good well water is gold.
Definitely seems that way. May even be able to use water straight from the faucet to reflux head. Turned out like Smirnoff at best when I tried it with municipal. But the yeasties seemed to enjoy it. With how good everything was smelling in all stages of the process, I'm curious how it may impact my final cuts. I'll be ecstatic if I get more bottling likker because of it.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Avalir »

So my spirit run is officially underway, so I wanted to add an update. My yield with the toast level I used was unchanged compared to the same grain bill with non-toasted oats and wheat.
I'm currently in the early hearts. As part of my cuts process (and also out of eagerness/excitement), I'll take a few drops on a spoon as it drips off the still to taste.
The profile I got from the early hearts is predominantly sweet with some bitterness (from my experience with some brown rice whiskey experiment, this bitterness will turn into a decadent nutty flavor after resting a few hours--which was honestly one of the main flavors I was hoping to gain by toasting). Mouthfeel even this early is smooth with some creaminess.

And a reminder from earlier in the thread, for those just popping in or curious, the grain bill is 64% corn, 20% barley malt [10% pale malt, 10% vienna malt], 10% toasted oats, 6% toasted wheat. I fermented for a week off the grain with bakers yeast with an ambient temperature of ~72F. I have a normal SS pot still and use a small amount of copper packing and I just double distill (1 strip run, 1 spirit run).

I'll probably update again once I've finished and made my cuts, but so far this is coming along extremely well. Especially excited to see how it transforms once I put it on some charred oak.
For a little preview on my aging, I age in a glass jug with some wood I've prepped. The in-law is a hobby craftsman and owns his own sawmill, so he throws me a few pounds for helping him mill several tons. So I have heartwood from american white oak, thrown in his solar kiln for a few months. I then cut it to size, toast in the oven, then char with a torch just prior to aging. I use a combination of light, medium, and heavy toast that I give a healthy char to (roughly level 3-4 char to all the toast levels).
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Too excited to wait for my next update, but I'll keep this one brief. In the mid hearts now and just took a small taste off the still. Still a fair amount of sweetness, but maybe half as prominent as in the early hearts. Nice toasted notes are coming through now and with a hint of carmel/butterscotch. Mouthfeel is a little more pronounced--nice creaminess, bordering vaguely buttery.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Another brief update. Approaching the end of the hearts. Sampling off the still, the flavor has is transitioning from toasty back to that bitter should transform into nutty taste. Also detecting a slight flavor that seems quite similar to what you might find when using smoked grains if you sampled it fresh (only played with smoked grains a couple time a long while back, so I couldn't say for sure if that's it, but the taste immediately brought that memory to mind). Grain flavors are becoming evermore present. Mouthfeel is still on the creamy side, but I'd say less than the mid hearts, or at least not standing out as much with everything else going on.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Have to work soon, but wanted to make a quick addition in regards to the final outcome after cuts. Flavor is extremely rich and sweet, the carmel/butterscotch notes definitely shine above everything else. The other, more subtle flavors I notes in various parts of the run aren't making themselves readily detectable--the nutty and possibly smoky flavors. The absolute most notable aspect in my opinion is the mouthfeel; it's far more intense than this bill with non-toasted oats and wheat, bordering too much of a good thing. I'll probably play around with how much I add in future batches, but I'm sure if I dilute after maturing, the mouthfeel intensity will definitely be reduced, however I usually keep my finished spirits barrel strength as I get sad about the flavor dilution after I've gotten accustom to the boldness of barrel strength from sampling while maturation is underway.
Definitely great flavors have been gained by toasting, so I'm satisfied. I'm contemplating also experimenting with various mixes of toasted and non-toasted, and maybe even blends of various toast levels to see what I can create.

Thanks for staying tuned in!
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by NormandieStill »

Glad this has worked out for you and thanks for the updates.

I malted a small batch of wheat recently to test my newly acquired dessicator. I then followed a recipe for making chocolate malt. I've not tried mashing in yet, but they taste pretty similar to the chocolate malt that I've bought in the past. I'm definitely going to have to play around some more with toasted grains.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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I hope to get into malting my own grains in the near future. Can't stand paying what they want to charge for malts, so I've only played with barley malts so far. I'm sure like with any other extra work and time that goes into our whiskey prep, it'll only expand our flavor possibilities to create a taste that's uniquely our own... also want to get into cultivating my own yeast for the same reason. Love that feeling of pride when you outdo yourself and know your spirit likely can't be completely replicated by another just due to how unique and customized you've made each step of the process.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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IMG_20220520_194933.jpg
Just malted my first 20kg barley and made some choc malt.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Looking forward to see how it turns out Bluc :thumbup:
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by Demy »

1653243217259.jpg
These are some special grains I do ... it is important (especially for toasted grains) to have a constant mixing, I built a small drum.
1653243217251.jpg
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Very nice. I especially like the aroma of the wash when using chocolate malt, it's like a nice porter... sadly, it wasn't a good fit the times I experimented with it (added it to bourbon and a single malt scotch-style). I still have a good 20lbs of chocolate malt and I'd hate for it to go to waste. Need to brainstorm up a grain bill it'll work well in to use it up. Also have some french oak cubes I got as a gift I think would pair nicely... oats, rye, chocolate malt, and wheat perhaps, maybe aged on partially charred french oak? I'll work on the recipe and logistics.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Avalir wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:57 pm Very nice. I especially like the aroma of the wash when using chocolate malt, it's like a nice porter... sadly, it wasn't a good fit the times I experimented with it (added it to bourbon and a single malt scotch-style). I still have a good 20lbs of chocolate malt and I'd hate for it to go to waste. Need to brainstorm up a grain bill it'll work well in to use it up. Also have some french oak cubes I got as a gift I think would pair nicely... oats, rye, chocolate malt, and wheat perhaps, maybe aged on partially charred french oak? I'll work on the recipe and logistics.
I made a wheated bourbon with chocolate malt. HBB with chocolate malt substituted for the honey malt. I didn't throw the chocolate in with the corn for fear of pulling too much astringency at the higher temperature. I used a litle alpha amylase to help keep the corn manageable and put all the malt in together. Had to go hunting in the tails for the chocolate flavour and skipped a few jars that might have aged out but weren't contributing anything interesting to the blend. Got some white and some sitting on oak. May turn out a little one dimensional but the chocolate flavour is nuts!
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Oh yeah, chocolate malt definitely goes a long way. Without grabbing and searching my old notes think I did 6% in my single malt. It wasn't bad, but chocolate flavor was definitely strong and stood out. A decent spirit, but not what you'd want out of a scotch.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Thought I'd check back in now that I'm nearing the end of my 3 month aging using these toasted grains in my bill. I'd say I hit the nail on the head for what I was trying to achieve. Nice mouthfeel, not too much either; I wouldn't go so far as to call it silky, but somewhat adjacent to it; definitely not oily or syrupy as I've gotten with using heavier oats or adding brown rice. Flavor is balanced and delightful; modest sweetness throughout; begins with carmel and transitions to more of a butterscotch with a nutty finish that lingers (if I had to pick a nut, I'd call it pecan-like), all with a mild balanced oak throughout.
I'd definitely call this a success for what I was going for. I'm thinking I'm going to toast larger quantities in large batches to get a consistent variety of toast levels to try to get a little more complexity/dimensions in future batches. I'll let you know how that turns out in a few months.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Sporacle wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:48 am Looking forward to see how it turns out Bluc :thumbup:
The white spirit is not bad. There is a bit of burnt toast type flavour but lots choc. A little astringent but not terrible. I just finished making my second bag homemade malt once I run it I will add it to the first lot spirit to calm the choc..
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

Post by EricTheRed »

The chocolate will fade if you let it age a bit.
Had the same issue. Left it another 2 months and it faded.
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Re: Toasting Your Own Grains

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Finally upgraded to a 15 gallon boiler and therefore upgraded to a 55 gallon fermenter (brute) so I have the volume to begin fermenting on the grain - not to mention I have no interest in straining grains from that large of a batch.
But getting back on topic, with the smaller batch and aiming for one consistent toast level, even though it was pleasantly tastey, I found myself missing some of the flavors from the raw grains. Long story short, for my first larger batch, I took a different route for toasting. This time I loaded 10lbs in steamer trays and toasted in the oven at 325F for 2.5 hours and giving it a quick stir about every 20 minutes. My logic is to end up with a blend of toast levels since it's not going to toast all too evenly. I figure doing this to an entire bushel to pull from, the consistency of variety should be about even batch to batch and ultimately give me a little more complexity to elevate my flavor profile. I'll let you know how it goes probably within the next couple weeks or month.

At the very least, it should save me time vs doing numerous smaller batches of more specific toast levels just to have to weigh them out separately and/or figuring out ratios. After I see how it goes, I'll assess if it would be worth my while to go the more tedious route. Quality generally is worth the prep time, but if this method is a home run on satisfying my palate, it's a least a time saver.
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