Why do I need copper in my still?

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Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Edmonton »

Been doing my homework and I’m still torn between Copper and Stainless. That is before I came across this video!
Thoughts?
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Copper every time for me.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Uncle Jesse »

Copper removes sulphates and should be included somewhere in your vapor path.

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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I've never had any perceivable issue with any of my stainless setups. You can put copper in the boiler and/or copper mesh in the base of the riser or column. Stainless is cheaper (if I'm not mistaken), tougher, generally doesn't corrode and would likely last virtually forever. Copper is easier to solder in comparison to stainless, but when I need structural parts welded, I take them to a local guy who TIG welds for me.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by StillerBoy »

Edmonton wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:38 pm I’m still torn between Copper and Stainless.
What is it that got you torn between copper and stainless ? ?

Copper for me, and stainless is for the cheapys or don't want to take the time to build from copper..

And yeah, copper porn is really nice especially while one is being babysat..

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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Copper is more traditional, more artisanal, more romantic - looks better, easier to work with, will last a lifetime and you probably won’t regret making or buying a copper still. There’s lots of info that explains the how and why to copper making better spirits. Maybe some of that is the luddites saying their piece? The stainless advocates also often explain how you can always add copper mesh or cutoff bits into the boiler and vapor path.

Can you answer or consider a couple questions? Which would you prefer and why do you feel that way? How much does it really matter? Does it matter how you feel about it? Does how you feel about the equipment have an impact on what you get out of being involved in the pursuit of making high quality spirits with real character, depth, and complexity? Even if it’s very subtle?

You only have to buy the correct thing once where if you buy the wrong thing first you’ll probably end up spending good money again…

Make the story personal?

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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Edmonton »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:12 pm Copper is more traditional, more artisanal, more romantic - looks better, easier to work with, will last a lifetime and you probably won’t regret making or buying a copper still. There’s lots of info that explains the how and why to copper making better spirits. Maybe some of that is the luddites saying their piece? The stainless advocates also often explain how you can always add copper mesh or cutoff bits into the boiler and vapor path.

Can you answer or consider a couple questions? Which would you prefer and why do you feel that way? How much does it really matter? Does it matter how you feel about it? Does how you feel about the equipment have an impact on what you get out of being involved in the pursuit of making high quality spirits with real character, depth, and complexity? Even if it’s very subtle?

You only have to buy the correct thing once where if you buy the wrong thing first you’ll probably end up spending good money again…

Make the story personal?

Cheers,
-j
I consider myself a perfectionist and have a keen sense of taste and smell. With that being said…
Has any done a blind taste test between the 2?
Some say you will never notice the sulfur and others say different.
My worry is the slightest hint of sulfur may turn me off.
But I have not experienced this yet.
So, yes, I am leaning towards copper but still always looking for more info!
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by LWTCS »

With very strict / controlled fermentation practices, copper is not necessarily requisite. Some beer geeks might even say that distillers use copper as a crutch for shitty fermentation practices.
Also, there is no such thing as too much copper in the vapor path. It simply will never hurt.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Edmonton wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:41 pm
jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:12 pm Copper is more traditional, more artisanal, more romantic - looks better, easier to work with, will last a lifetime and you probably won’t regret making or buying a copper still. There’s lots of info that explains the how and why to copper making better spirits. Maybe some of that is the luddites saying their piece? The stainless advocates also often explain how you can always add copper mesh or cutoff bits into the boiler and vapor path.

Can you answer or consider a couple questions? Which would you prefer and why do you feel that way? How much does it really matter? Does it matter how you feel about it? Does how you feel about the equipment have an impact on what you get out of being involved in the pursuit of making high quality spirits with real character, depth, and complexity? Even if it’s very subtle?

You only have to buy the correct thing once where if you buy the wrong thing first you’ll probably end up spending good money again…

Make the story personal?

Cheers,
-j
I consider myself a perfectionist and have a keen sense of taste and smell. With that being said…
Has any done a blind taste test between the 2?
Some say you will never notice the sulfur and others say different.
My worry is the slightest hint of sulfur may turn me off.
But I have not experienced this yet.
So, yes, I am leaning towards copper but still always looking for more info!
I primarily make the cleanest neutral I possibly can though I have made flavored spirits too. If I get any off flavors, it's been due to poor cuts and getting greedy usually close to tails. I can tell if I get too much heads. It's as plain as day when you drink it. If I do bad cuts, I run it again and learn from that experience. I have never experienced the scent or flavor of anything that could be considered 'sulphur', meaty or anything typically described by having any lack of copper. Honestly, I've never put copper in my boiler other than the 1" copper pipe which leads to a ball valve for my bottom drain. I have only put 3-4 rolls of copper mesh in the riser/column. So far I've only read about people's 'feelings' about copper. To me and in my experience that's all it is ... feelings. I admit my experiences to you may be considered anecdotal, but I'm telling the truth and not based on feelings.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by NZChris »

I've always had copper in my stills so don't have personal experience of running without it, but I've walked into someone else's distillery, smelled the product coming off the SS still and straight away asked where he had put the copper. He hadn't put any in and thought he was making good product.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Edmonton wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:41 pm
I consider myself a perfectionist and have a keen sense of taste and smell. With that being said…
Has any done a blind taste test between the 2?
Some say you will never notice the sulfur and others say different.
My worry is the slightest hint of sulfur may turn me off.
But I have not experienced this yet.
So, yes, I am leaning towards copper but still always looking for more info!
There have been multiple posts here of sulphur complaints from members running 'un-modified' stainless stills as detection of sulphur compounds, while up to each individual, is easily detectable. If you go stainless you may find your threshold for DMTS. If you go with copper, you won't. If cost is a factor, go with stainless, and as the owner of keen senses, you can report back with how effective stuffing copper in the boiler/vapor path works for you. No one ever blamed a discriminating distiller for investing in copper over stainless.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Stonecutter »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:58 pm With very strict / controlled fermentation practices, copper is not necessarily requisite. Some beer geeks might even say that distillers use copper as a crutch for shitty fermentation practices.
Also, there is no such thing as too much copper in the vapor path. It simply will never hurt.
This is why I haven’t attempted a beer yet. I’m much to lazy. Stillin is great that way. Make a filthy wine, make a sour beer and you’ve got yourself some damn fine congeners. I definitely appreciate coppers crutch.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by SaltyStaves »

My main liebig is copper, but my preheater condenser is SS. With the same wash in both vessels and both condensers producing, the SS will produce a very heavily-sulphured aroma.
I have yet to double distill anything with the SS condenser exclusively, so I don't know how much will end up in the final product, but the stripped distillate is offensive.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Uncle B »

StillerBoy wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:07 pm Copper for me, and stainless is for the cheapys or don't want to take the time to build from copper..
Easy, son. Some of us aren't master craftsmen, don't have the space, time or equipment to build from scratch, or just like the durability of stainless. There are perfectly valid reasons to go stainless.

But to the question... I had a particularly sulfur-y ferment a while back, and five copper plates in a SS column, run twice (was making neutral), was enough to clean it up. Mind you, the bottom plate turned completely black, but it did the trick. And while I agree having some copper in the system is very helpful, copper doesn't need to be the end-all-be-all if other factors push you toward stainless.

If I followed the video correctly (after a couple of beverages, admittedly), it sounds like the the most effective place for copper is in the liquid path. So copper boiler and/or copper condensers would be more effective than, say, a copper onion head. In my humble opinion, mixing and matching metals is perfectly acceptable; the quality of the end product should be more important than the aesthetics of the still.

Finally, one thing not mentioned yet is the thermal conductivity of stainless vs. copper. Speculating since I haven't run copper, but I'd imagine that a stainless column retains heat better, needing less power input. Conversely, one place you might actually want copper is at your condensers, as they're more efficient.

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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

From memory only a tiny proportion of stills built when I started out in the hobby were made from stainless prior to them becoming readily available commercially for the hobby market.
The popularity of stainless seemed to come about more from ease and price of mass production than any other reason......I strongly suspect that if it wasn't for that , that 99% of stills would still be made from copper.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by still_stirrin »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:47 pm… I strongly suspect that if it wasn't for that, that 99% of stills would still be made from copper…
That … and the price of copper! Ridiculous around here now days.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Copper , good stills and good booze don't come cheap SS.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Renhoekk »

Edmonton wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:41 pm Has any done a blind taste test between the 2?
Yep. The Scotch Whisky Research Institute's Sensory Panel participated in a thorough test of this.
They sampled new make from a variety of identically-scaled pot stills, in different configurations.
The configurations included stainless only, stainless with copper in the vapour path, all copper, copper pot with stainless condenser and so on.

Compared to the new make from the 100% stainless stills, the conclusion was that copper reduced sulphury and "meaty" notes.
Copper worked best when it was 1) in the condenser on a stripping run, and 2) part of the pot on the spirit run.

Interestingly, the Panel thought the spirit run from the stainless still with copper added to the condenser was quite sulphury--just as bad as the 100% stainless spirit run with no copper.

..
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by distillingwisdom »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:40 pm I've never had any perceivable issue with any of my stainless setups. You can put copper in the boiler and/or copper mesh in the base of the riser or column. Stainless is cheaper (if I'm not mistaken), tougher, generally doesn't corrode and would likely last virtually forever. Copper is easier to solder in comparison to stainless, but when I need structural parts welded, I take them to a local guy who TIG welds for me.
Is Tig welding lead free and suitable for distillation purposes?
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

distillingwisdom wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:36 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:40 pm I've never had any perceivable issue with any of my stainless setups. You can put copper in the boiler and/or copper mesh in the base of the riser or column. Stainless is cheaper (if I'm not mistaken), tougher, generally doesn't corrode and would likely last virtually forever. Copper is easier to solder in comparison to stainless, but when I need structural parts welded, I take them to a local guy who TIG welds for me.
Is Tig welding lead free and suitable for distillation purposes?
As far as I know it is. When TIG welding stainless, they should use stainless filler rod too.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by distillingwisdom »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:38 pm
distillingwisdom wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:36 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:40 pm I've never had any perceivable issue with any of my stainless setups. You can put copper in the boiler and/or copper mesh in the base of the riser or column. Stainless is cheaper (if I'm not mistaken), tougher, generally doesn't corrode and would likely last virtually forever. Copper is easier to solder in comparison to stainless, but when I need structural parts welded, I take them to a local guy who TIG welds for me.
Is Tig welding lead free and suitable for distillation purposes?
As far as I know it is. When TIG welding stainless, they should use stainless filler rod too.
Can we use Tig to weld copper and stainless together?
Also do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

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distillingwisdom wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:12 am do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
No. Heat breaks down epoxy.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

distillingwisdom wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:38 pm
distillingwisdom wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:36 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:40 pm I've never had any perceivable issue with any of my stainless setups. You can put copper in the boiler and/or copper mesh in the base of the riser or column. Stainless is cheaper (if I'm not mistaken), tougher, generally doesn't corrode and would likely last virtually forever. Copper is easier to solder in comparison to stainless, but when I need structural parts welded, I take them to a local guy who TIG welds for me.
Is Tig welding lead free and suitable for distillation purposes?
As far as I know it is. When TIG welding stainless, they should use stainless filler rod too.
Can we use Tig to weld copper and stainless together?
Also do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
Yes, copper & stainless an be TIG welded together.

Epoxy is always a 'no go' in either the boiler or anywhere in the vapor path.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by LWTCS »

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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by buchrob »

This will probably please nobody, but at least I can freshen up my copper easily between runs. Also no stress on the plbg as things heat up.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by distillingwisdom »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:48 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:38 pm
distillingwisdom wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:36 pm

Is Tig welding lead free and suitable for distillation purposes?
As far as I know it is. When TIG welding stainless, they should use stainless filler rod too.
Can we use Tig to weld copper and stainless together?
Also do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
Yes, copper & stainless an be TIG welded together.

Epoxy is always a 'no go' in either the boiler or anywhere in the vapor path.
A quick question.I am building a pot distiller.
For a distilling purpose Is it safe to solder brass compression fittings for joints that connects SS boiler to the copper coil or the compression fittings must be of copper?
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:30 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:48 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:38 pm

As far as I know it is. When TIG welding stainless, they should use stainless filler rod too.
Can we use Tig to weld copper and stainless together?
Also do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
Yes, copper & stainless an be TIG welded together.

Epoxy is always a 'no go' in either the boiler or anywhere in the vapor path.
A quick question.I am building a pot distiller.
For a distilling purpose Is it safe to solder brass compression fittings for joints that connects SS boiler to the copper coil or the compression fittings must be of copper?
Brass is fine as far as I know. I actually have a few brass fittings where I soldered copper tube through it to make thermowells. I have one in each boiler, one in the head of my pot still and one in the vapor take-off in my reflux still. If you search this site for "pickling brass", you should get some good search results. There's discussion about the potential for lead in brass and what 'pickling' the surface does. People say that lead cannot carry over with the vapor. The only brass fittings I have are only in contact with vapor.

Solder adheres very well to brass as well as to copper. Same with stainless, but stainless it just a bit trickier to solder. It's more about the technique with the heat and solder. Practice helps and tinning the stainless surface with solder helps too.
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by distillingwisdom »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:37 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:30 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:48 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:12 am
Can we use Tig to weld copper and stainless together?
Also do you recommend using cold weld like epoxy for copper and stainless?
Yes, copper & stainless an be TIG welded together.

Epoxy is always a 'no go' in either the boiler or anywhere in the vapor path.
A quick question.I am building a pot distiller.
For a distilling purpose Is it safe to solder brass compression fittings for joints that connects SS boiler to the copper coil or the compression fittings must be of copper?
Brass is fine as far as I know. I actually have a few brass fittings where I soldered copper tube through it to make thermowells. I have one in each boiler, one in the head of my pot still and one in the vapor take-off in my reflux still. If you search this site for "pickling brass", you should get some good search results. There's discussion about the potential for lead in brass and what 'pickling' the surface does. People say that lead cannot carry over with the vapor. The only brass fittings I have are only in contact with vapor.

Solder adheres very well to brass as well as to copper. Same with stainless, but stainless it just a bit trickier to solder. It's more about the technique with the heat and solder. Practice helps and tinning the stainless surface with solder helps too.
OK thanks
Would this solder wire be suitable for my purpose or its too thin?
https://electrobes.com/product/50gm-hig ... -diameter/
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by Yummyrum »

distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:48 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:37 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:30 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:48 am

Yes, copper & stainless an be TIG welded together.

Epoxy is always a 'no go' in either the boiler or anywhere in the vapor path.
A quick question.I am building a pot distiller.
For a distilling purpose Is it safe to solder brass compression fittings for joints that connects SS boiler to the copper coil or the compression fittings must be of copper?
Brass is fine as far as I know. I actually have a few brass fittings where I soldered copper tube through it to make thermowells. I have one in each boiler, one in the head of my pot still and one in the vapor take-off in my reflux still. If you search this site for "pickling brass", you should get some good search results. There's discussion about the potential for lead in brass and what 'pickling' the surface does. People say that lead cannot carry over with the vapor. The only brass fittings I have are only in contact with vapor.

Solder adheres very well to brass as well as to copper. Same with stainless, but stainless it just a bit trickier to solder. It's more about the technique with the heat and solder. Practice helps and tinning the stainless surface with solder helps too.
OK thanks
Would this solder wire be suitable for my purpose or its too thin?
https://electrobes.com/product/50gm-hig ... -diameter/
No . It will drive you nuts . It’s designed for soldering PCBs .
Stuff we use for plumbing and still building is typically 3-4mm diameter . Even then , some of the bigger joints you still need to feed it pretty fast . That 0.8mm stuff is too small . If you made up big twisted lengths of it so it was about 3mm fat , it may work .

I’d just get the right stuff .
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Re: Why do I need copper in my still?

Post by distillingwisdom »

Yummyrum wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:03 pm
distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:48 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:37 am
distillingwisdom wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:30 am
A quick question.I am building a pot distiller.
For a distilling purpose Is it safe to solder brass compression fittings for joints that connects SS boiler to the copper coil or the compression fittings must be of copper?
Brass is fine as far as I know. I actually have a few brass fittings where I soldered copper tube through it to make thermowells. I have one in each boiler, one in the head of my pot still and one in the vapor take-off in my reflux still. If you search this site for "pickling brass", you should get some good search results. There's discussion about the potential for lead in brass and what 'pickling' the surface does. People say that lead cannot carry over with the vapor. The only brass fittings I have are only in contact with vapor.

Solder adheres very well to brass as well as to copper. Same with stainless, but stainless it just a bit trickier to solder. It's more about the technique with the heat and solder. Practice helps and tinning the stainless surface with solder helps too.
OK thanks
Would this solder wire be suitable for my purpose or its too thin?
https://electrobes.com/product/50gm-hig ... -diameter/
No . It will drive you nuts . It’s designed for soldering PCBs .
Stuff we use for plumbing and still building is typically 3-4mm diameter . Even then , some of the bigger joints you still need to feed it pretty fast . That 0.8mm stuff is too small . If you made up big twisted lengths of it so it was about 3mm fat , it may work .

I’d just get the right stuff .
They look unusual than a typical soldering wire but i think they should work right? Specially the copper one. As you know copper is lead free right?

https://www.daraz.pk/products/5pcs-silv ... 38870.html?

https://www.daraz.pk/products/soldering ... 60526.html?
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