Cleaning up sulfury low wines
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- Rumrunner
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Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Hey guys,
Not too long ago I distilled a 25gal batch of Honey Bear Bourbon and to my dismay, I had a sulfur rich product. Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.
I always run my bourbon in single runs with two plates and usually have great results. During this last stinky run, I decided to crank it up full blast and simply strip the rest of it to run at a later date.
After posting about it on here, I was given the advice to re-run it with fresh wash as to not lose too much flavor. I’ve got a new 25 gallon batch going today. This time around, I’m potentially going overboard with nutrient, but I decided to add 1/2cup boiled yeast, 4 crushed multivitamins, a big pinch of epsom salt, 4 teaspoons of calcium chloride and 1 tablespoon of DAP. I’m going to ferment with DADY at 85 degrees F.
My batch sizes typically get me two full single runs with my keg boiler. Here’s my plan. First run will be as usual with the fresh wash. I’ll then do two more runs where I divide the wash in half and add half of my stinky low wines to them for re-running.
I’m paranoid of bringing back sulfur flavor. I have an all stainless rig, with the only copper being the plates themselves and my 8” copper coil RC. Normally it seems to be enough to not have an issue, but now, due to my paranoia, I want to compensate for the lack of copper. I have an 18” stainless riser that I put my plates on top of. I was planning on stuffing it with a bunch of copper mesh, which will act like more plates, so I was thinking of maybe only using one plate this time around, but I’m curious about your guys’ thoughts on this.
My logic seem sound? Any ideas that might work better?
Not too long ago I distilled a 25gal batch of Honey Bear Bourbon and to my dismay, I had a sulfur rich product. Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.
I always run my bourbon in single runs with two plates and usually have great results. During this last stinky run, I decided to crank it up full blast and simply strip the rest of it to run at a later date.
After posting about it on here, I was given the advice to re-run it with fresh wash as to not lose too much flavor. I’ve got a new 25 gallon batch going today. This time around, I’m potentially going overboard with nutrient, but I decided to add 1/2cup boiled yeast, 4 crushed multivitamins, a big pinch of epsom salt, 4 teaspoons of calcium chloride and 1 tablespoon of DAP. I’m going to ferment with DADY at 85 degrees F.
My batch sizes typically get me two full single runs with my keg boiler. Here’s my plan. First run will be as usual with the fresh wash. I’ll then do two more runs where I divide the wash in half and add half of my stinky low wines to them for re-running.
I’m paranoid of bringing back sulfur flavor. I have an all stainless rig, with the only copper being the plates themselves and my 8” copper coil RC. Normally it seems to be enough to not have an issue, but now, due to my paranoia, I want to compensate for the lack of copper. I have an 18” stainless riser that I put my plates on top of. I was planning on stuffing it with a bunch of copper mesh, which will act like more plates, so I was thinking of maybe only using one plate this time around, but I’m curious about your guys’ thoughts on this.
My logic seem sound? Any ideas that might work better?
- Salt Must Flow
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Put lots of copper bits and/or rolls of copper mesh in your boiler. You can put 3-4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of your riser too. I wouldn't run an all SS still without at least some mesh in the riser whether it be your stripping run or your spirit run. Even more mesh during a stripping run sure couldn't hurt.
- Stonecutter
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Can you describe the smell, is it Rotten eggs or burnt matches? This link may be helpful. I was never able to use copper to get the smell out of my distillate. I also tried hydrogen peroxide without success but I’m sure I didn’t follow Odins directions well enough as I didn’t know the exact amounts of sulfur in my product.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
When I had the opportunity to treat SO2 I used both a long piece of copper mesh in the low wines carboy as well as a dose of H2O2 and that cleaned up the burning matchstick smell in the spirit run - I let it sit for a few days with H2O2 and the copper mesh..
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
It's your punishment for not using enough copper and not using it in the boiler. Have a read of this;
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Not a bad idea. How much hydrogen peroxide should I use? This is new to me. I’ve never had a sulfury all grain before.jonnys_spirit wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:26 pm When I had the opportunity to treat SO2 I used both a long piece of copper mesh in the low wines carboy as well as a dose of H2O2 and that cleaned up the burning matchstick smell in the spirit run - I let it sit for a few days with H2O2 and the copper mesh..
Cheers!
-j
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
The lack of copper in my rig is a product of me buying, not building. I have zero fabrication or soldering skills, nor time to invest, although one day it would be a fun thing to do. Again, my normal protocol is to keep sulfur out of the ferment to begin with, which up til now has been successful.NZChris wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:04 pm It's your punishment for not using enough copper and not using it in the boiler. Have a read of this;
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
I did forget to mention, I always put copper mesh wads in my boiler before any run, including the stinky one. Guess it didn’t help that time as something produced a lot of sulfur in the fermenter. To this day I still have no idea what could have caused it since everything was done the same and I’ve never had issues in the past.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
It’s definitely an egg-y smell. When it was coming off the spout it almost had a burnt vegetal flavor.Stonecutter wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:34 am Can you describe the smell, is it Rotten eggs or burnt matches? This link may be helpful. I was never able to use copper to get the smell out of my distillate. I also tried hydrogen peroxide without success but I’m sure I didn’t follow Odins directions well enough as I didn’t know the exact amounts of sulfur in my product.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Many issues with what was done, certainly not the same as the previous runs..
Below is one issue.. you normally do a one run on 2 plates, but last run wasn't.. you when have way, then change from plate running to stripping.. then you state you did everything the same as previous runs.. Not So..
Mars
Below is one issue.. you normally do a one run on 2 plates, but last run wasn't.. you when have way, then change from plate running to stripping.. then you state you did everything the same as previous runs.. Not So..
BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:09 pm To this day I still have no idea what could have caused it since everything was done the same and I’ve never had issues in the past.
Another issue maybe it was the copper mesh that was stinky and have not been cleaned, as they need some cleaning now and then or else they do become useless..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:52 am I distilled a 25gal batch of Honey Bear Bourbon and to my dismay, I had a sulfur rich product. Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.
I always run my bourbon in single runs with two plates and usually have great results. During this last stinky run, I decided to crank it up full blast and simply strip the rest of it to run at a later date.
Possibly better recording keeping/logging need to improved or implemented..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:09 pm I did forget to mention, I always put copper mesh wads in my boiler before any run, including the stinky one.
Mars
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
When I was saying I did everything the same, I was referring to ferment and performing the run with two plates. Halfway through the run, I determined it was a lost cause and decided to just strip the wash.StillerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:11 pm Many issues with what was done, certainly not the same as the previous runs..
Below is one issue.. you normally do a one run on 2 plates, but last run wasn't.. you when have way, then change from plate running to stripping.. then you state you did everything the same as previous runs.. Not So..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:09 pm To this day I still have no idea what could have caused it since everything was done the same and I’ve never had issues in the past.Another issue maybe it was the copper mesh that was stinky and have not been cleaned, as they need some cleaning now and then or else they do become useless..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:52 am I distilled a 25gal batch of Honey Bear Bourbon and to my dismay, I had a sulfur rich product. Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.
I always run my bourbon in single runs with two plates and usually have great results. During this last stinky run, I decided to crank it up full blast and simply strip the rest of it to run at a later date.
Possibly better recording keeping/logging need to improved or implemented..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:09 pm I did forget to mention, I always put copper mesh wads in my boiler before any run, including the stinky one.
Mars
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:52 am Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.
I read the statement as contrary in meaning.. if I understand correctly, what it is your saying, is a finished batch, half was "un-squeezed" whatever that means, and run without any issue.. the second half of the same batch, was the one with the issue, so what done to it before spiriting it..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:12 pm When I was saying I did everything the same, I was referring to ferment and performing the run with two plates. Halfway through the run, I determined it was a lost cause and decided to just strip the wash.
So whatever you did, it what not the same prior to each run.. somehow somethings was done differently.. a change in process who knows ? ? a developed process is so important but not so if "it's ok to wing it" as it what seem to of happen here..
Mars
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
What I meant by squeezing refers to squeezing the rest of my remaining distillate out of the grains with a mop wringer. My first sprit run was from the clear wash on top, the second was from what was soaked in the grains. After I squeeze the grains, I let them clear in a chest freezer and rack to the boiler. So yes, there could be some measurable difference with both of the batches from this variable alone, but I’ve never noticed til now.StillerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:36 pmBrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:52 am Interesting thing was the first half of the batch “un-squeezed” seemed to be okay. The second half was where the problems happened.I read the statement as contrary in meaning.. if I understand correctly, what it is your saying, is a finished batch, half was "un-squeezed" whatever that means, and run without any issue.. the second half of the same batch, was the one with the issue, so what done to it before spiriting it..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:12 pm When I was saying I did everything the same, I was referring to ferment and performing the run with two plates. Halfway through the run, I determined it was a lost cause and decided to just strip the wash.
So whatever you did, it what not the same prior to each run.. somehow somethings was done differently.. a change in process who knows ? ? a developed process is so important but not so if "it's ok to wing it" as it what seem to of happen here..
Mars
Also, I don’t ever “wing it.” I try to be as precise as possible in my process with every batch I do and take detailed notes. I try to leave as many variables as I can within my control, which is why I’m confused that this batch didn’t go as expected.
I appreciate you taking your time to post on this thread, but don’t find what your saying to be helpful. I’m taking it as you telling me I don’t know what I’m doing, but not providing me with anything that could be taken as ways to improve. The original thread was asking if my logic is sound about my plan to process my low wines that were tainted with sulfur. This is in fact new to me as I’ve never had to deal with it before. I’ve done many successful runs of bourbon up to this point and am really proud of the finished product.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
I double-distill through a pot, but I used to get 'eggy' notes from running squeezed but uncleared/opaque ferments that admittedly contained lots of grain 'fines' and yeast (collectively: custard). This may not be what is contributing to your off-flavors, but once I started racking the clear off this squeezed custard from my bourbon ferments the problem went away.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
This is interesting. It could explain the difference from the first run since it was already clear. I did notice the second run stayed a bit more murky than usual, despite my usual cold crashing.Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:53 pm I double-distill through a pot, but I used to get 'eggy' notes from running squeezed but uncleared/opaque ferments that admittedly contained lots of grain 'fines' and yeast (collectively: custard). This may not be what is contributing to your off-flavors, but once I started racking the clear off this squeezed custard from my bourbon ferments the problem went away.
Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
It is only the Low Wines and you did have some copper in the boiler for the stripping run, so you might be worrying about nothing. Did you have copper contact in the condenser? Your spirit run, if done with copper in the necessary places, might clean it up better than you are thinking it will.
I haven't bothered tasting my Low Wines for years.
I haven't bothered tasting my Low Wines for years.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Before contributing something meaningful, one has to find out what was done and how, plus trying to relate to the language used..BrewinBrian44 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:05 pm I’m taking it as you telling me I don’t know what I’m doing, but not providing me with anything that could be taken as ways to improve. The original thread was asking if my logic is sound about my plan to process my low wines that were tainted with sulfur.
A still does not contribute to the production of sulfur, the fermentation phase is the place it's done, the still only tell you something wasn't done right in that phase.. so you fermentation process need review, the pressing process, plus clearing process.. I've done a gooood number of mashes, and never experience creating sulfur, but my process is much different than most, especially when it comes to clearing..
As to mixing low wine that you done like due to sulfur smell with some fresh mash, I certain wouldn't be doing so, until I had figure where/why the issue was caused..
Mars
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
The areas I had copper in still were as follows:NZChris wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:05 pm It is only the Low Wines and you did have some copper in the boiler for the stripping run, so you might be worrying about nothing. Did you have copper contact in the condenser? Your spirit run, if done with copper in the necessary places, might clean it up better than you are thinking it will.
I haven't bothered tasting my Low Wines for years.
-3 wads of copper in boiler “balls slightly smaller than the size of my fist
-The physical plates and caps themselves, two of them. “Sight glass style
-the graham coil RC is full copper
Everything else is stainless, including the shotgun PC. I suppose I could add some mesh inside the condenser tubes for a bit more contact. I was thinking about stuffing additional mesh in the riser before the two plates as well, although, since reflux will be falling on it, it will likely act as an additional plate.
On other recipes, when I run pot still style and perform a stripping/spirit protocol, I always stuff my riser full of copper, but I prefer single runs on two plates with honey bear bourbon.
Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
According to the research I posted, and another source, copper in the condenser won’t help for the spirit run.
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Re: Cleaning up sulfury low wines
Update:
I elected not to add the sulfury low wines to my last batch of Honey Bear. I didn’t need the extra volume anyways and I now have enough spirit to re-fill fill my 5gal Gibbs. I still need to process it and I have an idea:
My plan is to dump the low wines into my boiler with a crap load of copper mesh and let it sit for a week, sealed off, then strap on my vodka column, full of copper mesh and just reflux the crap out of it for a couple hours, giving the vapor plenty of time to mingle with the copper and hopefully remove all the sulfur without collecting any product. After the copper reflux step, I’ll let the boiler and column cool off, then attach my regular plated column, with some copper mesh in the riser and perform a run as normal.
For my new batch, the extra steps I took to address sulfur paid off. I used ample yeast nutrient in the wash and ran it with a good amount of copper in the boiler and added more copper to my riser, under the plates. The spirit was great! No stink, just sweet, tasty white spirit. I also gave the strained portion of the wash more time to cold crash and added some gelatin solution to it to help aid the clearing. I also was less greedy, not racking too close to the cream at the bottom. Worked well!
I’ve not had problems in the past excluding these added protocols, but I feel it’s just added insurance for a better product every time.
I elected not to add the sulfury low wines to my last batch of Honey Bear. I didn’t need the extra volume anyways and I now have enough spirit to re-fill fill my 5gal Gibbs. I still need to process it and I have an idea:
My plan is to dump the low wines into my boiler with a crap load of copper mesh and let it sit for a week, sealed off, then strap on my vodka column, full of copper mesh and just reflux the crap out of it for a couple hours, giving the vapor plenty of time to mingle with the copper and hopefully remove all the sulfur without collecting any product. After the copper reflux step, I’ll let the boiler and column cool off, then attach my regular plated column, with some copper mesh in the riser and perform a run as normal.
For my new batch, the extra steps I took to address sulfur paid off. I used ample yeast nutrient in the wash and ran it with a good amount of copper in the boiler and added more copper to my riser, under the plates. The spirit was great! No stink, just sweet, tasty white spirit. I also gave the strained portion of the wash more time to cold crash and added some gelatin solution to it to help aid the clearing. I also was less greedy, not racking too close to the cream at the bottom. Worked well!
I’ve not had problems in the past excluding these added protocols, but I feel it’s just added insurance for a better product every time.