Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Pierrot Lunaire 55
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Have you thought about a shroud around the lower half of the boiler.
Most of the heat is getting away before it can heat the pot.


I like the shroud idea! The boiler pot is 13" in diameter at the bottom. If you look at the photo, you'll see there is a gap of 1.25" between the boiler bottom and top of the burner shroud. So if I make the inside diameter of my shroud 15.5", I'll have the same annulus. I can cut slots into the shroud to coincide with the outrigger horns, so the bottom of my shroud will be a couple inches below the top of the burner shroud. Convection should keep the hot gas going up. It will increase the amount of surface area for heat recovery big time.

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

This string has gone off in some interesting directions, which is always a good thing as they are invariably thought provoking.

My ultimate objectives relate to time spent and water consumption. Reducing propane consumption would also be a good thing, but it's not all that critical.

So what will Mark II of this setup look like? Here is a composite of the suggestions so far:
1. Use two 4-foot sections of finned pipe connected in series with a similar shroud to channel the forced air.
2. Make a more tapered transition from the boiler column down to the 3/4" finned pipe to ease steam flow from the boiler.
3. Replace the Liebig condenser with a shotgun (shell-and-tube) design. I'm sketching up a version with a 2" shell and four internal 1/2" tubes. I'll probably make it 24" long. I doubt I can mount it fully vertical due to space constraints, but it can have a steep downward pitch.
4. Build a shroud for the burner to improve heat recovery.

I don't think I'll change to an electric heater, but I'll give that idea more thought. I have to ask, don't they get fouled with burned residue when heating mash?? The idea makes more sense for a spirit run.

The idea of capturing heat from the condenser to preheat batches is conceptually very appealing to the engineer in me. But for the sake of practicality, I may let that one go for now. I'll stick with preheating using a second burner for the time being, but I can use a shroud for that as well since it's the same burner. Should speed things up and use less propane.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Twisted Brick »

If you go the shotgun route, you won't need the condenser shroud or tapered lyne arm. A 21" length on the shotgun will allow you to strip at maximum heat/speed levels and be lighter weight than a full 24" shotty. The boiler shroud will pay for itself immediately.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

So that looks to be a 2 inch shell? 3 inch? How many tubes/what size inside?

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Ahhhh, I just found your string about your shotgun construction. Questions answered, and I might add, a thing of beauty is a joy forever.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by NZChris »

I hope the people recommending shrouds have tried them, I’ve heard that they can cause burn on above the liquid level. A search of the forum should find something about it.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

If the mash is liquid enough to avoid burning on the bottom, I would think it would be OK on the sides as well. In any case, I'm going to give it a try.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:37 am I don't think I'll change to an electric heater, but I'll give that idea more thought. I have to ask, don't they get fouled with burned residue when heating mash?? The idea makes more sense for a spirit run.
That's unfortunate that an electric setup is not in your consideration, because the longer you wait, the less it will happen.. as to causing some scorching, no different than using gas.. what is missing in your response is the fact that scorching only happen if an improperly cleared wash/mash is used..
Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:37 am My ultimate objectives relate to time spent and water consumption.
As to your "ultimate objectives" is the fact that the present setup is slow, and a water hog, and the path traveling on now will not improve that.. as I have stated and what was stated by TB, which will improve greatly over your present setup, is a 2" straight to the 2" shotgun.. this will meet both of your objectives, plus a few other benefits..

It's always nice to experiment with, but it's has to be done in a manner that shows improvement toward the altimate efficiency with the lease attachments in the way..

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:37 am
I don't think I'll change to an electric heater, but I'll give that idea more thought. I have to ask, don't they get fouled with burned residue when heating mash?? The idea makes more sense for a spirit run.
Your right.
The set up you have now can distill anything, without the need to filter or squeeze.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:43 am Have you thought about a shroud around the lower half of the boiler.
Most of the heat is getting away before it can heat the pot.


I like the shroud idea! The boiler pot is 13" in diameter at the bottom. If you look at the photo, you'll see there is a gap of 1.25" between the boiler bottom and top of the burner shroud. So if I make the inside diameter of my shroud 15.5", I'll have the same annulus. I can cut slots into the shroud to coincide with the outrigger horns, so the bottom of my shroud will be a couple inches below the top of the burner shroud. Convection should keep the hot gas going up. It will increase the amount of surface area for heat recovery big time.

Thanks.

P1000785.JPG
Let me correct myself. :oops:
Make the shroud shorter than I recommended.
Covering the lower half of the boiler might be too much and cause a hardened ring of crud to form inside the boiler. The lower 1/4 to 1/3 would be better.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

I'm working on this at the moment. When the boiler is full, the liquid is a bit beyond where the milk can begins to curve into its taper, so even if I make it as long as I was planning, it will still end below the liquid level most of the time. If I want to get really complex and wonderful, I can cut multiple sets of slots on the bottom at different depths so the shroud can be placed in different positions. I'll work on that.

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by NZChris »

Today, I spent some time looking at historic still boiler designs to see if any of them applied to heating above the liquid line. I learned some new stuff, but nothing that contradicted what I already knew.

I suspect that most of the drawings of fired boilers that I found were bricked between the firebox and the lowest level of the charge, the hot exhaust gasses going out through a chimney. None of them showed heating of the walls of the still above the charge.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

So, a trip to Menards to buy a section of square heating duct, application of some tin snips, a few pop rivets, and we have a burner shroud. I've included some photos of with and without, so you can get some indication of how it fits together.
P1000790.JPG
P1000788.JPG
P1000791.JPG
So, does it work? A quick, slightly scientific test yielded this:

Putting 3 gallons of water into the can (roughly 5 inches deep) and running the burner without the shroud, the temperature changed from 22.2 to 46.1 C over 10 minutes, with the burner regulator in a normal operating position.

Doing the test again with 3 gallons of water and the regulator in the same position but with the shroud in place, the temperature changed from 23.0 to 60.2 C in 10 minutes. I'd say that's quite a difference, and it will probably have a greater effect with more liquid in the can so it can use more of the sides as a heating surface. Not bad. :clap:

One thing that struck me particularly, was that I kept flicking droplets of water at the shroud while it was running, expecting the water to sizzle and flash into steam. It didn't. It's interesting that the shroud doesn't get hotter.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Sarge410884 »

Need to make a reusable gasket for a thumper. Turning a 2 gallon stock pot fot a 5 gallon boiler,
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Twisted Brick »

Sarge410884 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:57 pm Need to make a reusable gasket for a thumper. Turning a 2 gallon stock pot fot a 5 gallon boiler,
Sarge410884
Hey Sarge,

You'll get more visibility (and responses) if you open a new thread with a title somewhat like "Need ideas on gasket for a thumper".

You can also start your digging with a search on DIY gasket.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

@ Pierrot Lunaire 55
Now that the burner is figured out. :thumbup:
Have you started to gather up the parts needed for the hybrid air-water cooled condensers. :?:
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by cob »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 I searched all your posts looking for the configuration of your previous liebig.

Would you please describe it?
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

About the Liebig: It's a pretty straightforward design.

Outer jacket: 1-1/2 inch pipe
Inside pipe: 3/4 inch pipe
Cooling water feeds: 1/2 inch pipe

Begin by getting two reducing TEEs, 1-1/2 x 3/4 x 1/2. This is available as SKU 32956 from SupplyHouse.com, and probably others. The only thing you have to do to modify the TEE is remove the internal stop that keeps you from pushing the 3/4 inch pipe all the way through. Depending on what tools you have available, you should be able to do it with with a 7/8 inch drill bit or reamer, round file, or small grinding wheel. You may have to do some fiddling to get the pipe to pass through easily. Overall condenser length can be whatever you think is necessary.

Usually a Liebig has the cooling water feed come in at the bottom at the condensate exit end, and the feed goes out the top at the steam inlet end. This minimizes trapping air inside. Solder it up and you're in business. There are other resources on soldering elsewhere.

Here's a close-up photo of my condenser at the delivery end. I put a valve on the cooling water feed line.
P1000777.JPG
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

shadylane wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:19 pm @ Pierrot Lunaire 55
Now that the burner is figured out. :thumbup:
Have you started to gather up the parts needed for the hybrid air-water cooled condensers. :?:
Yes I have. It may be a while before I start the overall assembly. I work on these sorts of things during the off-season (winter). Maybe I'll do some sort of series of posts on its construction. Lots of good suggestions from y'all to incorporate.

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:46 pm
Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:37 am I don't think I'll change to an electric heater, but I'll give that idea more thought. I have to ask, don't they get fouled with burned residue when heating mash?? The idea makes more sense for a spirit run.
That's unfortunate that an electric setup is not in your consideration, because the longer you wait, the less it will happen.. as to causing some scorching, no different than using gas.. what is missing in your response is the fact that scorching only happen if an improperly cleared wash/mash is used..
Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:37 am My ultimate objectives relate to time spent and water consumption.
As to your "ultimate objectives" is the fact that the present setup is slow, and a water hog, and the path traveling on now will not improve that.. as I have stated and what was stated by TB, which will improve greatly over your present setup, is a 2" straight to the 2" shotgun.. this will meet both of your objectives, plus a few other benefits..

It's always nice to experiment with, but it's has to be done in a manner that shows improvement toward the altimate efficiency with the lease attachments in the way..

Mars
One other thing: Before I built the hybrid setup discussed here, I did my stripping runs by feeding the boiler directly into a 48 inch Liebig with a 1 inch through pipe. Crude, but it worked just fine. The problem was it created LOTS of hot water. Why? Because all the heat from the boiler was being transferred directly to the water. Now, Twisted Brick's setup is beautiful and I like the efficiency of a shotgun condenser. (I plan on using one with my new setup.) However, is it not simply a more efficient way to transfer all the heat directly to the water? The point of the air-cooled stage is to dissipate some of the heat before it hits the condenser. That heat has to go somewhere, and I'm trying to give it more places to go. What am I missing?
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:41 am
One other thing: Before I built the hybrid setup discussed here, I did my stripping runs by feeding the boiler directly into a 48 inch Liebig with a 1 inch through pipe. Crude, but it worked just fine. The problem was it created LOTS of hot water. Why? Because all the heat from the boiler was being transferred directly to the water. Now, Twisted Brick's setup is beautiful and I like the efficiency of a shotgun condenser. (I plan on using one with my new setup.) However, is it not simply a more efficient way to transfer all the heat directly to the water? The point of the air-cooled stage is to dissipate some of the heat before it hits the condenser. That heat has to go somewhere, and I'm trying to give it more places to go. What am I missing?
Correct. Funny, this was the first question I ever posted here. In short, multiple vapor tubes slows vapor speed (4x vs a liebig) and allows increased dwell time to extract the maximum amount of heat over a short length. But, like you say, the heat has to go somewhere. I recycle (70gph) my coolant water through a 30gal poly barrel that can go from 69F to 118F over the course of a 11gal stripping run (about 2hrs full blast). It is after the coolant has reached these higher temps (and lower heat transfer coefficent) that the shotty's internal baffles become important to efficiency. All of this contributes to the shotty's heat extraction placing a burden on one's coolant scheme.

Just my gut feeling, but I would think a finned/shrouded liebig would work more efficiently after exiting the condenser (more heat to remove) than before it. I'm sure a knowledgeable member can chime in here. The shotty's effectiveness at removing heat isn't in question, its how to remove that extracted heat exiting the shotty to help keep the coolant cool.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:41 am The problem was it created LOTS of hot water. Why? Because all the heat from the boiler was being transferred directly to the water. Now, Twisted Brick's setup is beautiful and I like the efficiency of a shotgun condenser. (I plan on using one with my new setup.) However, is it not simply a more efficient way to transfer all the heat directly to the water? The point of the air-cooled stage is to dissipate some of the heat before it hits the condenser. That heat has to go somewhere, and I'm trying to give it more places to go. What am I missing?
Firstly it’s not the heat from the boiler that is handled by a product condenser, it’s the condensing of the vapors created in the boiler that’s required to be change to a liquid..

Secondly, maybe just using to much power.. the mindset of hard and fast, create lots of hot water beyond what should be required.. unless you have a large family to feed, at the hobby level for personal use, the hard and fast is not required.. and
there is also a point of ideal balance, which means the balance between power used to the coldness of the water used should be in balance.. beyond that balance is a point of no return, costing in extra water needed to do the task of stripping, for
what, to save a few minutes of time..

I strip using a 2 x 19" raiser, straight into a 2 x 6" a 5 x 1/2" tubes with 3 baffles shotgun, and it's ideal balance is 3500w at 3/4L of 60*F water with a 75*F distillate temp and done under an hour.. yeah it will handle 5500w, but at a high cost of extra water, for what, to save a few minutes.. not discounting that I don't have hot air issues, or the hazard of the long liebig create..

What is forgotten is that a product condenser has two task, one to condense the vapors, and second to cool the distillate.. Liebig are built long, not for condensing but for cooling of the distillate mostly, and it’s a very poor design because of it’s poor distillate cooling ability, especially at a horizontal position, being mindful that about 80% of a liebig function is used for that purpose..

Also one has to be mindful of all what is happening, within a product condenser, during the condensing and cooling, or how does all of that happens.. it’s quite simple.. vapors to condense need to come in contact with something cooler than themselves, which in the distillation process, water is used as it’s the easiest to control and readily available.. also vapors condense mostly by touch, in other words, coming in contact with cooled wall(s) and distillate.. so area surface that will provide such, the more efficient the condenser will work..

That is why, a shotgun condenser, setup in a vertical position, will provides more surface area than a liebig will.. and also understanding that distillate don’t drop from in mid air but travel along a wall surface, the shotgun provides more wall area and cooling ability, plus has extra benefits, and one is using less water in the process to cool down the distillate..

So what am I missing, lots in understand of what is actually taking place.. but it's depended on you to see the different or the path to choose for improving the issues you are incurring.. we can only provide info from our experiences..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by cob »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:51 am About the Liebig: It's a pretty straightforward design.
I was asking about your previous liebig because 3/4 over 1/2 appears to be

the most water efficient and can handle massive input in lengths around 3-4 feet

If your old liebig fits those parameter's give it a try. I like your experiment.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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StillerBoy wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:54 am That is why, a shotgun condenser, setup in a vertical position, will provides more surface area than a liebig will.. and also understanding that distillate don’t drop from in mid air but travel along a wall surface, the shotgun provides more wall area and cooling ability, plus has extra benefits, and one is using less water in the process to cool down the distillate..
Mars
Makes me think that a finned air cooled condenser might work better for knocking down vapour in a vertical position. Maybe even better if a flat strip of twisted copper is added to the inside?

A well built Liebig could then be attached to do the product cooling….
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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Makes me think that a finned air cooled condenser might work better for knocking down vapour in a vertical position. Maybe even better if a flat strip of twisted copper is added to the inside?

A well built Liebig could then be attached to do the product cooling….
[/quote]


You're probably right, but I do have to deal with the practicalities of fitting it in my garage. Although, imagine: A tall riser, straight up from the boiler, almost to ceiling height. A u-turn, feeding into the finned cooler(s) installed vertically. They serve as a downcomer, and then have the water-cooled condenser at the bottom. The two air-coolers would have to be in parallel rather than series, and it would need a really interesting duct to channel air through the fins. VERY interesting notion though. This idea is beginning to grow on me. I could probably even send some of the hot air out the window via a duct.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Yummyrum »

Shotguns are great on electric stills , but Liebigs are better at keeping the collection as far away from a gas fired still as possible .
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

You're probably right, but I do have to deal with the practicalities of fitting it in my garage. Although, imagine: A tall riser, straight up from the boiler, almost to ceiling height. A u-turn, feeding into the finned cooler(s) installed vertically. They serve as a downcomer, and then have the water-cooled condenser at the bottom. The two air-coolers would have to be in parallel rather than series, and it would need a really interesting duct to channel air through the fins. VERY interesting notion though. This idea is beginning to grow on me. I could probably even send some of the hot air out the window via a duct.
[/quote]


This new still, using parameters just described and following critical points earlier in the discussion, is in the works, and construction is well along. I'll start another chain to discuss its progress.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by squigglefunk »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:46 pm scorching only happen if an improperly cleared wash/mash is used..
or is the necessity of clearing the ferment a byproduct of the improper heating method of a poorly designed still.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:36 am or is the necessity of clearing the ferment a byproduct of the improper heating method of a poorly designed still.
There is no scorching to occur if the wash/mash is properly cleared.. but you fail to expand on what you mean by "poorly designed still".. the boiler is a part of the still but separate from the a still design..

Unless one is fortunate to have a bain marie style as a unit for a boiler or is steam equipped, in which case there is no issue of concern with scorching..

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