Running Plates for the First Time

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werkkrew
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Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

As the title says, I recently built a new still with 4 bubble plates in a 4" column. Prior to this still I was using a very basic pot still and doing the usual stripping -> spirit run workflow. I have about 15 spirit runs under my belt on the pot (with about 3 stripping runs per) so I got very comfortable on my simple pot and was making some really quality whiskey. Issue was it was only about 3 gallons so it took a lot of time to get any meaningful amount of product.

I have done 3 runs on the new still (one vinegar, two actual washes), after lots of reading I think (or thought) I understood how to run it, but I'm having some trouble. Prior to these 3 runs I have never run any sort of reflux still, plates or otherwise.

My heat source is a 6500w electric element on a DIY controller I built on 240v. I have pretty fine-grained control. My dephlegmator is throttled using a ball valve, I wish I had a little bit more control here but it's adequate.

So generally my run goes something like this, (in theory):

- Run at full power until boiler temp is about 160, start paying attention to the column temperature with my hand by touching it.
- Once the column is hot to the touch at the first plate I turn on my cooling water to wide open to the dephlegmator (full reflux), still at max power input
- Once all plates are loaded I let it run in that state for about 10-15 minutes after reducing the power from 6500w to about 3000w
- Slowly reduce water flow to the deplheg until I get output, first output is slow, few drops / second - collect fores
- Reduce water flow a bit more to reach a nice takeoff rate, collect / do cuts as usual
- Once temperature in column starts to increase and abv starts to go down noticeably increase cooling flow and/or lower power input to push the tails back down as much as I can
- Once it feels like I've collected all the hearts I can, essentially turn off all flow to the dephleg and collect as much of the remaining alcohol as I can for feints - shut down the run once column temp is above ~200 and I'm collecting < 40% abv

My issue is that all of the heads/hearts come off at almost 190 proof and I'm afraid I'm stripping out too much flavor, so I wind up trying to mess with variables (less cooling to RC, more heat input, etc) to try to push the takeoff rate high enough that my abv. is closer to 160 proof (to make a true Bourbon) but I can never really get it there. It seems like its either 180-190 proof, or mostly water. I spent a large portion of the runs messing with stuff that my cuts weren't clean at all, so I just tossed everything I got off those first two runs into my feints jar.

Am I doing something wrong in my process? Should I be able to push the abv down to 160 or so on 4 plates or am I trying to do something the still doesn't want to do? Should I worry about getting it to 160 or just let it run where it wants to run? If less abv is indeed better for a flavored spirit like whiskey, what is the correct way to run this still? Less plates?

I'm having a hard time figuring out the balance between RC water flow and power input and which thing I should be adjusting. In my head I think I understand it - that either increasing heat input or reducing RC water flow should have the same end result (letting more vapor through) but in practice I am not sure that's actually how it works.

Thanks for any insights in advance!
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm My dephlegmator is throttled using a ball valve, I wish I had a little bit more control here but it's adequate.
Anything other than a needle valve is going to make you wanna tear your hair out. Buy one and you can use it for other things as well.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm start paying attention to the column temperature with my hand by touching it.
:thumbup: way to go.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm Once all plates are loaded I let it run in that state for about 10-15 minutes
No real need for that, you can start milking fores off pretty much straight away at a slow drip.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm reducing the power from 6500w to about 3000w
3000W is about the most you should need, many can and do run at less than that. Between 2400 and 3200w seems to be where the average person runs.......for my money less is more.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm My issue is that all of the heads/hearts come off at almost 190 proof and I'm afraid I'm stripping out too much flavor, so I wind up trying to mess with variables (less cooling to RC, more heat input, etc) to try to push the takeoff rate high enough that my abv. is closer to 160 proof (to make a true Bourbon) but I can never really get it there. It seems like its either 180-190 proof, or mostly water. I spent a large portion of the runs messing with stuff that my cuts weren't clean at all, so I just tossed everything I got off those first two runs into my feints jar.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm Should I be able to push the abv down to 160 or so on 4 plates or am I trying to do something the still doesn't want to do? Should I worry about getting it to 160 or just let it run where it wants to run? If less abv is indeed better for a flavored spirit like whiskey, what is the correct way to run this still? Less plates?
From my experience all 4 platers like to run at around 92% ABV / 184 proof at the start of run, they will drop back to around 88-89% toward the end before tails show. If yours is running consistently higher I would suggest that your Hydrometer is wrong or that your using to much heat and reflux.
You only need enough heat to keep the pates loaded while drawing off about 2L-2.5 per hour in your language 4.2 - 5 US pints an hour.
Plated column are designed to run high ABV and still retain flavour.
Imo Its a complete waste of time trying to make a plated column do things it doesnt want to do.......as in push it out of its happy zone.
If you really think you need lower abv and more flavour then remove a plate or two.......you will get a dirtier spirit and lower abv, and the still will be happier running that way.
I'd be digging those runs back out of the faints collection and trying to run them again, lotta wasted tasty booze in that lot is my guess.
werkkrew wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:10 pm In my head I think I understand it - that either increasing heat input or reducing RC water flow should have the same end result (letting more vapor through) but in practice I am not sure that's actually how it works.
Thats pretty much it , and visa versa..........problem is to fine tune things you do need that needle valve.
Now your going to get people coming along here saying you can run a 4 inch 4 plate column a whole lot faster than what Ive quoted.......Yes I go slow n steady........you do the same till you can run well at that speed then try faster if you really must............in 2 or 3 years when ya got a lotta runs under your belt come back n tell me how well they go at a faster speed.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Yummyrum »

You wrote a lot there Salty and I would have to agree with every word of it .

To emphasise the key points . Keep the power at or under 3kW . 4 plates are happy at 92% ABV . If you want lower ABV , use less plates.
A needle valve is invaluable on a deflag .
Keep the takeoff around 2-2.5 L/h

Werkrew, you seem to be getting the hang of it .Salty has given you some top advise
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Thanks Yummy :thumbup: Probably a bit wordy , but as you and I know, I been running these things for more than a few years now.......they are one thing in the distilling world that I feel pretty confident about giving advice on.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

Thanks for the replies guys. Appreciate the information!
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by LWTCS »

Agree with both Salty and yummy.

But also to add, you don't have to wind it up and fully enrich the column. Er, 100% reflux is not needed if you are not trying to collect the highest abv.
As you've noticed, once the column is enriched it doesn't want to let the likker come out with a lower abv.

Before you pull a plate out try this: Think like a pot stiller. Then, just a trickle of cooling media. No 100% reflux period.
Definitely put a valve on your cooling circuit that will provide more precision control than a ball valve.

Dave Pickerell also made whiskey on an 8 plate column. He just de-emphasized all the reflux.

Edit: I forgot to add that if you want to squeeze out a super strict heads cut, go with the high reflux. Then kill the power and let the plates drain and fire it back up with minimal (or less) cooling flow. Only takes a few minutes extra.

Nuther Edit; You probably don't want to completely eliminate cooling media flow unless you are certain your cooling lines won't get too soft and collapse. Not an issue if you are hard piped.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

LWTCS wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:26 pm Nuther Edit; You probably don't want to completely eliminate cooling media flow unless you are certain your cooling lines won't get too soft and collapse. Not an issue if you are hard piped.
Yeah I had thought about this, I am using john guest push-to-connect fittings and they are only rated for around 160F so Id have to be careful just shutting the dephleg down completely and having issues with my fittings melting or failing in some other way.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by LWTCS »

werkkrew wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:39 am
LWTCS wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:26 pm Nuther Edit; You probably don't want to completely eliminate cooling media flow unless you are certain your cooling lines won't get too soft and collapse. Not an issue if you are hard piped.
Yeah I had thought about this, I am using john guest push-to-connect fittings and they are only rated for around 160F so Id have to be careful just shutting the dephleg down completely and having issues with my fittings melting or failing in some other way.
Ok yessir, keep a trickle flowing then.
You'll also notice that with minimal reflux you shouldn't need as much power to get the same / preferred collection speed.

After running through that exercise if you find you're still not landing your preferred proof then removing a plate would be the next step.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by SDEngr1 »

When running bubble plates it is next to impossible to get your ABV down around 80%. You look like you are running things correctly with only fine tuning needed. I heat my column, turm down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes. I go to about 30% reflux then adjust my heat input until a get a few drips/sec to pull off the foreshots. I increase heat slightly while removing the heads. Once I'm into the hearts I hammer down with a steady pencil stream until condensation starts showing up in the lower column. Increase reflux ratio and adjust heat to slow collection until tails are inevitable.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 am I heat my column, turm down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes.
Might I ask why the 45 minutes of full reflux?
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:57 am
SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 am I heat my column, turm down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes.
Might I ask why the 45 minutes of full reflux?
Read somewhere it's important to "stabilize the column" for a while...
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by LWTCS »

werkkrew wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:59 am
Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:57 am
SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 am I heat my column, turm down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes.
Might I ask why the 45 minutes of full reflux?
Read somewhere it's important to "stabilize the column" for a while...
Yeah all that is only necessary if you are trying to drive up the abv.
Abv will already be boosted by virtue of the multiple phase change cycles. Again, for whiskey proofs you have to put the brakes on the protracted reflux mode.
Think like a pot Stiller.

Stabilize/equalize is just code for shifting as much alcohol into the column as possible.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by LWTCS »

Without temp data, I'd bet a 4 plate column would be fully enriched ( notwithstanding an appreciably low heat input) in 15 minutes or less after all the plates are loaded.
Can any of you data geeks confirm?
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by SDEngr1 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:57 am
SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 am I heat my column, turm down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes.
Might I ask why the 45 minutes of full reflux?
I have read to "stabilize the column" for 2 full hours but will only commit to 45 minutes so far. It allows the volatile compounds to segregate in the column and better purify by specific boiling temp. Since I started doing this procedure I can distill with <10% heads, >70% hearts, and around 20% heads although I normally stop before they are all pulled off. I think 70=% yield of clean hearts is well worth the effort!
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:49 am I'd bet a 4 plate column would be fully enriched ( notwithstanding an appreciably low heat input) in 15 minutes or less after all the plates are loaded.
Id bet your right Larry, in fact I'd go as far as to say 10mins or less.
Imo waiting for 45 minutes to start a run is just 45 minutes wasted......I start drawing fores off at a slow drip almost immediately.
LWTCS wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:13 am Stabilize/equalize is just code for shifting as much alcohol into the column as possible.
If a plated column isn't fully stabilized by the time I'm finished drawing off Fores it never will be.
SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:37 pm I have read to "stabilize the column" for 2 full hours but will only commit to 45 minutes so far.

Id be interested to see were you read/ heard that?
Hell even a packed reflux column doesn't take that long to stabilize.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by SDEngr1 »

"The Compleat Distiller" book which is one of the most comprehensive books on distillation I have ever read. I used to start collecting right away also but have gone from 60% or less yield to 70% or more yield. The amount of heads I collect has dramatically decreased using this method. The book will explain how the column can be easily disrupted if draw off rate is too quick in the beginning.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

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SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:37 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:57 am
SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 am I heat my column, turn down heat, then full reflux for 45 minutes.
Might I ask why the 45 minutes of full reflux?
I have read to "stabilize the column" for 2 full hours but will only commit to 45 minutes so far. It allows the volatile compounds to segregate in the column and better purify by specific boiling temp. Since I started doing this procedure I can distill with <10% heads, >70% hearts, and around 20% heads although I normally stop before they are all pulled off. I think 70=% yield of clean hearts is well worth the effort!
Just a thought from a very non-technical stiller using just a pot still.

If you want a clean spirit like vodka, 'better purification' is important.
For 'brown spirits' much less so.Geoff
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

Going back to the original topic, I ran my still again today. Only used two plates this time and was still unable to get it to really go below 180 proof, so I let it run how it wanted.

At around 3000 watts and minimal flow through the dephleg I was only able to get a peak takeoff rate of about 1.5L/hr.

All in all it was a productive run, I'm very happy with the output - tastes good and I got a good quantity. Still learning how to run a reflux still, specifically the plater but I'm getting the hang of it.

Wish I could get a faster takeoff rate though, I figured based on some responses here and the fat 4" diameter I'd be good for 2.5L/hr easy.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Less water to the deflegmator = less reflux= more booze leaving the still faster.....that simple.
The difference between 1.5 L an hour is only a tiny adjustment of a needle valve....that is why you need the precision that they suppy.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Stonecutter »

I’m NOT saying this is where SDEngr1 got the 2hr stabilizing info from, and I sincerely hope this doesn’t take the thread of the rails…but I do know that the unnamed YouTube personality preaches very lengthy stabilizing times. I appreciate SBB and Larry’s input. I had no idea that the enriching time was so low. I’m about to dive into a plated column and this is great news.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

Yeah I got a needle valve, loved using it, was night and day from the ball valve.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:36 pm that the unnamed YouTube personality preaches very lengthy stabilizing times.
Sounds like his kind of Rubbish.
Ive never read or even seen the The Complete Distiller, which is apparently where that information came from. I do know of the book and Ive seen others query some of the information in it at times.
From my understanding it mainly deals with packed column type reflux stills, not Perf Plate or Cap Plate type column stills which are a completely different kettle of fish.
If anyone out there has a copy and wants to show me the section that deals with plated columns in full reflux for 2 hours I'd love to see it.
werkkrew wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm Yeah I got a needle valve, loved using it, was night and day from the ball valve.
They really do make things much much easier. :thumbup:
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by ThomasBrewer »

The Nixon/McCaw book is available quite inexpensively from The Amphora Society, Amazon, or even pirate scans at the usual places. It's a worthwhile read.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

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werkkrew wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:30 pm Going back to the original topic, I ran my still again today. Only used two plates this time and was still unable to get it to really go below 180 proof, so I let it run how it wanted.

At around 3000 watts and minimal flow through the dephleg I was only able to get a peak takeoff rate of about 1.5L/hr.

All in all it was a productive run, I'm very happy with the output - tastes good and I got a good quantity. Still learning how to run a reflux still, specifically the plater but I'm getting the hang of it.

Wish I could get a faster takeoff rate though, I figured based on some responses here and the fat 4" diameter I'd be good for 2.5L/hr easy.

Wait, say that again please.
With two plates you were pulling 180 and throwing 3000 watts at the kettle? For the duration of the run or as fores? Temp corrected?
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

That's correct. Duration of the run.

Not temp corrected though.

Also worth noting the tails were extremely compressed and came very late.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I'm thinking what Larry is.....90% on two plates seems excessively high abv%.
I take it that you are running plain ol wash in that thing and not low wines of some kind?
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by LWTCS »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:45 pm I'm thinking what Larry is.....90% on two plates seems excessively high abv%.
I take it that you are running plain ol wash in that thing and not low wines of some kind?
Particularly if the cooling media flow rate is minimal and no 100% reflux period.
I'm afraid I'd have to see that with my own eyes.
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by werkkrew »

I'm not making stuff up, I suppose there is a chance my hydrometer is wrong but I don't think so... I'll take a video next time :)
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Stonecutter »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:11 pm
If anyone out there has a copy and wants to show me the section that deals with plated columns in full reflux for 2 hours I'd love to see it.

Here ya are Bill. There’s a bunch of other garbage in there about running by time and temp as well. :crazy:
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Re: Running Plates for the First Time

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Thank you for posting that up Stonecutter, as I suspected no mention of plated columns that I can see.
A packed column and plated columns are two very different beasts used to produce two very different products.
If you can find the words Plated Column anywhere in or near that section of the book then I'm keen to know.
I'll take an educated guess and say that you wont even find the words Plated Column in that book.
Even then Id go as far as to suggest that letting a packed column stabilize for 2 hours is a waste of time and not something that anyone really does.
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