Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

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Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

I'm into my third year of making bourbon-style mash using these "industrial" enzymes with what appears to be some success, but I've never been sure I'm doing it like I should to get the maximum effect. So this year I decided to be a bit more scientific about my method, which I'll describe and maybe begin a dialog on what's good about the method and what really doesn't help.

The process of making about 25 gallons of mash, after straining, begins thusly:

12:00 noon, first day: heat up 30 gallons of water, (10 gallons at a time due to pot size limitations). When it gets to about 80º C, add one-third of a 50 pound bag of cracked corn to each pot, and continue heating it to about 95º C while stirring. Let it cook for a few minutes at that temperature and then dump into a 55-gallon stainless steel drum, so I end up with 30 gallons of water with 50 pounds of corn. This is a nice hot starchy gel.

So here's where SEBstar HTL comes in. This is the heavy-duty amylase to do the primary breaking down of the starch. According to the maufacturer's datasheet: Works over a temperature range between 80º and 90º, and a pH range between 6.5 and 5.6.

2:00 pm: By the time I get all three pots dumped into the drum, I'm usually a little bit below 90º so I can stir in the enzyme, but I've had little idea of what my pH is. This time, I bought a pH probe (Milwaukee Instruments pH600 digital pen) to see if I'm actually within that range. The corn solution, after it's cooked, has a pH of 6.0 according to the gizmo, so it's right where it needs to be. I put in ~25 ml of the SEBstar, stir thoroughly, and put the lid on.

3:00 pm: Temperature is down to about 83º and it has thinned out a lot. That stuff really works. More stirring and let it sit some more.

The next step is to add the second enzyme, the SEBamyl GL. This one is a little fussier. It can work as hot as 65º and down to 30º, but it wants a lower pH. The datasheet says it needs pH between 5.5 and 2.8. I've never tried to control my pH, so this is new. My sensor says the pH has drifted down a little to 5.8, but that isn't low enough. Thinking I would need to lower the pH, I bought a gallon (!) of 85% phosphoric acid, [HANDLE WITH APPROPRIATE SAFETY MEASURES] expecting it will certainly move the needle. But how much to add? I have no idea, so let's try an experiment: I fill a bucket with 3 gallons of tap water, and the pH is right about 7.0. I added a mere 5 ml of the acid to the bucket, stirred, and checked the pH. It changed to 2.5! Yikes. A little of that stuff goes a long way.

5:45 pm: I added about 12 ml of the acid to the drum and stirred it in. That little bit took the drum contents down to about 5.2 pH, within the range of the enzyme's requirement. The temperature was now just below 65º, so I added a dose (30 ml) of the SEBamyl GL.

6:30 pm: Temperature is down to 60º, so I added 15 pounds of crushed distiller's malt and 15 pounds of crushed rye malt.

At this point, all the ingredients are in the mix. Lots of stirring and I put the lid on. Stirring a few more times over the evening. Whatever enzymes are in there can do their thing.

------------------

6:30 am, second day: Temperature is down to 50º, more stirring. Everything seems OK. More stirring from time to time through the morning.

2:00 pm, down to around 40º so I start the straining process and move it to the fermenters and pitch yeast. (EC-1118) SG at the time of moving into the fermenters, 1.077 by float and refractometer.

Sooooo--does this make sense? It seems to work, but I really can't tell what's happening. The effect of the SEBstar HTL is pretty obvious, but is the SEBamyl GL helping? Should it affect the SG?

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks!!
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by greggn »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:12 pm
Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks!!


Don't worry about the enzymes. Work on building a wort chiller.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by elbono »

I've only done the sebstar/sebamyl a couple of times but my experience is similar to yours. The first try took three days to get to get to pitching yeast later I could do it in two days. With a wort cooler (which I don't have) I'm sure it can be done in one day.

Comments on your process:

Add the sebstar before you start heating. This post links to a YouTube video of how pintoshine does it. You never get the thick mush this way. That whole thread is good reading.

The sebamyl is very sensitive to pH when I adjusted pH to about 4-4.5 with citric acid things went much faster.

pH meters are finicky gizmos, I've used laboratory grade ones at work and to get good numbers you should keep the electrode in a neutral buffer solution when not in use and check accuraccy with a high ph and low pH buffer before each use. There's no way I would trust one I bought on amazon. pH meters will give really screwy numbers if you don't maintain the electrode. Standard litmus paper doesn't give me enough resolution but you can get "kambucha" test strips on amazon for less than $10 for 100. I can guestimate to 0.25 pH with them.

Get a bottle of iodine at the local drug store. Use it to test for starch, until you get a no starch result the sebamyl needs more time. The sg reading should be done after all the starch is converted to sugar.

The malts aren't needed if you do the first steps right. They will add flavors you may want and should help complete the sachrification if you didn't get the first steps right. They definitely won't hurt.

After playing with seb enzymes and traditional corn/malted barley mashes I discovered angel yeast. My pallette is definitely not sophisticated enough to taste the difference in flavor. It is really easy, took me with a buddy less than 3 hrs today to grind/heat water/pitch yeast today. Take a look at the this thread. I may go back to a traditional corn/malt process someday but until then I'm loving the ease of the angel stuff.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

Here's the data on how to work with it..

SEBstar HTL.. https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf

SEBamyl GL.. https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf

Enjoy the learning..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Yup, I watched those videos from Pinto Shine a couple years ago. He and those videos got me started with all this, and I even bought my first bottles from him, but he apparently got out of the business. And I have those datasheets too.

I add the malts for flavor, not for their diastatic power, and I have made 100% corn mash too. These enzymes are great for that. And I agree 100% that pH sensors are finicky buggers, even the really fancy industrial ones need buffer solutions and the like. The unit I got has 7.1 and 4.1 pH calibration solutions, plus cleaning and storage solutions. Crazy stuff.

My challenge has been to see if we can work these enzymes into more conventional multi-grain mash making. (I'll take a look at your angel thread.) Anybody else doing this?

Thanks!
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:57 pm My challenge has been to see if we can work these enzymes into more conventional multi-grain mash making.
Have no idea what you mean by "if we can work these enzymes into more conventional multi-grain mash making"..

They do will with any grain combination except if rye grain are the predominating grain, then SEBflo TL needs to be used..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Twisted Brick »

elbono wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:06 pm I've only done the sebstar/sebamyl a couple of times but my experience is similar to yours. The first try took three days to get to get to pitching yeast later I could do it in two days. With a wort cooler (which I don't have) I'm sure it can be done in one day.

Add the sebstar before you start heating.
Many distillers (including commercial guys) do not recommend this approach. Enzymes are fragile, and for maximum fermentability and yield, should always be pitched into the most ideal condition possible - this means ideal temp, ideal pH, and ideal timing from a step mash perspective. Most municipal water supplies' pH come in at pH7 or above. Consider the following, straight from the SEBStar HTL spec sheet listed by Mars above:
SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH
6.5.
SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC.
On another note, best practice is to cool your converted mash down to pitching temps as soon as possible to avoid the risk of infection or grain-borne rogue yeasts getting ahold of the ferment prior to pitching.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Ben »

I did quite a bit of testing on this, documented a bunch of it here: viewtopic.php?t=84742

My conclusion was you need to be above 180°f for 2-3 hours to get the corn to reliably cooperate (using cracked corn run through a roller mill at 0.030 gap).

The GL does help, but you really want to be below 145 before adding it, or add it after you have cooled. You can get all your grain to convert without it, depending on the grain used, its situational.

I agree with GreggN, build yourself a wort chiller, it will save you a ton of time and you can put that into allowing your corn to gel. Helps prevent miscellaneous infections, etc.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

So let's review some of the points that have emerged from this discussion.

First, on enzymes:
• They are critical to success when making mash, whether naturally occurring in the grain or from external sources.
• They are fragile and only work under proper pH and temperature conditions, so it is important to introduce them at ideal points in the process.
For best results, we must manage pH and temperature to the greatest extent possible. Some work faster than others.

Second, on the practices mentioned here:
• I am probably undercooking the corn, and cooling too slowly. Spend more time on the hot end and cool faster using a chiller. (I have a chiller, actually a very nice one that I built with an integrated agitator. I'm just too lazy to use it much of the time. I'll try to take some photos next time I use it.)
• Grind the corn as finely as practical. I buy feed store cracked corn and run it through one of those cheap rotary grain mills. It does make the particle size more consistently small and creates lots of fines, so it's better than corn straight out of the bag.

I am consistently producing mash in worthwhile volumes with an SG of 1.075 and better, so I don't think I'm too far off the rails.

Thanks.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:01 am
• They are fragile and only work under proper pH and temperature conditions, so it is important to introduce them at ideal points in the process.
For best results, we must manage pH and temperature to the greatest extent possible. Some work faster than others.
Enzymes will still work under less-than-ideal conditions, but potentially more slowly and to a less than optimal. Treat them well and do not boil your wash and they will continue to work throughout your fermentation.

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

What is so complex with using the Specialty Enzymes, as they're the easiest to use.. would it be that be people don't understand what they read, or have not taken the time to search for the data sheets, as they are really clear and easy to read..

Example of SEBstart HTL from the data sheet..

Enzyme Properties:
SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH 5.6 – 6.5. SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90 C. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 - 85C. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95C and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95C. The activity of SEBstar HTLis stabilized by the presence of Ca++ ions and is inhibited by high concentrations of heavy metals.

Dosage:
The optimum dosage of SEBstar HTL depends on:
nature and dry solids (DS)% of the substrate to be liquefied (that's your grain size, the finer the better)
final starch-syrup dextrose equivalent (DE, %) required ( that required enough water to make that happen)
liquefaction temperature and pH (that required the exact temp and PH)
liquefaction time (typically 30 – 120 minutes) (for our use it's best to go 2 hrs)
recommended dose: 200 – 800g/metric ton starch DS or whole grain (that is .36ml per pound or 3.5ml per 10 lbs)

For those who can't understand it all means..
- For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes (we recommend at least 2 hrs)
- the optimum temperature is 80 - 85C. ( that is 176 - 185*F )
- the optimum pH 5.6 – 6.5 (requires a Ph meter and best Ph is 5.8 )

For best result, boiling water, addition of milled grain (which will reduced the temp and Ph), checking of temp and Ph after stirring in the grains, addition of enzyme at the right PH and temp.. it has never failed me following this process..
What's complex..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I double the doses for insurance and add them over a temperature range to average out the effectiveness in addition to whatever malts I'm using. I've never cooled rapidly and it takes a good day or so to drop to the 150*F range. I will use fans on the mash barrel and/or add water. I've certainly had a few lacto's and a butyric at least once with an all wheat. I have a nice pH meter I use for wine but have rarely used it for mashing... The grains seem to take care of all that. I will measure and adjust pH if fermenting something other than grains - like agave or honey..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

P. L. Why not try to improve on your process, instead, and just maybe you will get a better result with less grain usage..

You used 80 lbs of grains for an 30 gal batch.. cracked corn will not give you much ( a little flavor ) unless it is milled to meal size, similarly, milled the other grains instead of crushed and you will get way better results.. and the liquid enzymes will also work better at liquidizing the starches.. the enzymes don't work on large starch particles..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

After additional consideration of the suggestions offered, here's the practice I'm going to adopt.

The evening before, I'll do the water boiling and corn cooking. When it all goes in the big drum, it is usually below 90 C, so I add the SEBstar HTL and let it sit covered overnight. If I manage the insulation in keeping with the overnight low temperature, it can usually be in the low 60s by morning. If not, I can uncover it and it will soon cool to below 60 C. At that point, I can add a dash of phosphoric acid to bring the pH down, and add the SEBamyl GL, followed by the crushed rye and barley malt. Mix well, cover, and let it sit for at least two hours.

After that time has elapsed, put in the chiller and get it down to pitching temperature, about 38 C. I have a nice chiller that fits into the drum with an agitator to keep it all moving.
P1000764 copy.JPG
It has 10 turns of half-inch copper tubing with an internal agitator. (Sorry it's hard to see with the cluttered background.) There is a temperature probe with an RTD that extends into the mash so I can see the temperature as it's cooling. (The readout is still F instead of C.) I can also read the temp of the cooling water at the outlet. It takes about 15 gallons of cold tap water to do the job.
P1000764 copy.JPG
This shortens the time, so I can have everything strained and in the fermenters by lunchtime. I did it this morning and had an SG of 1.073 for the 25 gallons. The yeast is already doing its thing. If anybody wants to see better photos, let me know.

Thanks.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:04 pm After additional consideration of the suggestions offered, here's the practice I'm going to adopt.

The evening before, I'll do the water boiling and corn cooking.
No where in your "additional consideration" have you mention anything about changes to properly milling the corn, nor the other grains.. so are you still mashing with cracked corn ? ?

Such a big setup for cooling down a mash, not discounting the cost and time, must have a large family to supply..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Well, it's a very practical matter. I still have a couple of bags of cracked corn to use up. I do re-grind it myself, so it is finer than straight from the bag, although not as fine as corn meal. Next season I'll probably make that change. I also intend to look at my corn grinder and see if I can get it even finer for those last two bags I need to use up. I have found local suppliers for corn meal in the meantime.

I may not have much family to feed, but I do have some faithful subscribers.

Thanks.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

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Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:15 pm I may not have much family to feed, but I do have some faithful subscribers.
Be very careful with the so called "faithful subscribers", as all it takes is one who doesn't get what he wants, and you'll have people calling at your door, and not the friendly ones..

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by OtisT »

Pierrot Lunaier 55, that is a nice chiller you have there. Must be a big gear reduction on that motor. How slow does the paddle go, RPM?

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Thanks, Otis. It's a Bodine gear motor, 1/6 horsepower with a 50:1 reduction resulting in 28 RPM so there's plenty of torque. That's a nice speed able to keep everything moving, particularly around the coil for maximum heat transfer. Bodine makes dozens of such gear motor designs, axial and right-angle, and there are plenty available on eBay. (Many are DC so pay attention to that.)

To give an impression of size, the drum interior diameter is 22 inches, and the outer diameter of the cooling coil is probably about 20 inches. The agitator paddle itself is about 17 inches wide. With my normal recipe, the mash is about 24 inches deep, so that is the height of the coil and paddle.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Specman »

I know this post is a few days old, but wanted to throw in my $0.02. Like a lot of your folks, I agree that the SebStar HTL and Gluco are game changers. In the recent past, in my AG mashes - 65/20/15 corn/rye/6 row - I struggled to get above 1.055 using just the 6-row and powdered alpha amylase. But in the last three mashes I have cooked using the Sebstar HTL and GL, I am consistently into the mid-7's. I have also quit using the expensive flaked maize ($80 per 50lb sack at brewer's store) and happily gone over to the feed store steam rolled corn that I can buy locally for $15/50lb. I am glad to read these recent posts because I realize I was applying the GL at allegedly too hot of a strike point - like 150F - but didn't seem to suffer. With these two enzymes, I really think that the challenge of true AG bills is minimized. With a 12gal/25lb recipe this weekend, I achieved 1.065 by the time I transferred to the fermenter while still hot, let cool over night with no chiller, and then reached 1.075 by noon the following day before I pitched. So the process continued during the night.

As an overkill, I add the 6-row and 2t of the alpha powder along with the GL for the conversion process.

I would highly urge anyone struggling with corn-based AG to 1) find cheap feed store steamed/rolled corn, and 2) get big bottles of HTL and GL, and use liberally.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by StillerBoy »

Specman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:36 pm I would highly urge anyone struggling with corn-based AG to 1) find cheap feed store steamed/rolled corn, and 2) get big bottles of HTL and GL, and use liberally.
Good to know that they are working for you.. but if you are using rye in the grain bill, get some SEBflo TL, as will help even more..

This thread has more info on the TL..
viewtopic.php?t=87943

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

My batches of mash are consistently between 1.072-1.074 using the methods discussed here.

Just made a new batch today. Cooked the corn last evening (50 lbs in 30 gallons), added the SEBStar HTL and let it sit overnight. By morning, it was about 65 C, let it cool a bit to 60 C, added a bit of phosphoric acid to get the pH down (about 5.5), added the SEBamyl GL, plus the rye and barley, let sit for about 3 hours, then quick cooled and transferred to fermenters. Final SG: 1.072.

I'll have to look into that SEBflo TL...

Thanks.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:34 pm Final SG: 1.072.
I'd say that's a smashing success.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Lots of valuable info in here! Just received the Seb HTL and GL bottles to play around with corn.
But I want also introduce other grains as I don't want to do 100% corn liquor. I really enjoy Oats so I plan on 75% corn and 25% Oats, or maybe with some 2rows Barley (lowering the corn a bit).
Do I still make it exactly as I would with 100% corn? Throwing boiling water into all the grains, Add the HTL when I reach 185F, and the GL when I get below 145F? Or you would add the 2row at the same time than the GL enzymes?
Of course I would check Ph and adjust it accordingly with citric acid for the specific enzymes added.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by EricTheRed »

Evil_Dark wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:25 am Lots of valuable info in here! Just received the Seb HTL and GL bottles to play around with corn.
But I want also introduce other grains as I don't want to do 100% corn liquor. I really enjoy Oats so I plan on 75% corn and 25% Oats, or maybe with some 2rows Barley (lowering the corn a bit).
Do I still make it exactly as I would with 100% corn? Throwing boiling water into all the grains, Add the HTL when I reach 185F, and the GL when I get below 145F? Or you would add the 2row at the same time than the GL enzymes?
Of course I would check Ph and adjust it accordingly with citric acid for the specific enzymes added.

Your thoughts?
I've done and still am doing 24kgs fine ground corn meal, 9 kgs breakfast oats, ground to a flour.
This for a 150L ferment. I bring water to boil shut off and add grains while stirring with paint stick.
Temp is generally spot on for enzymes. Cover let cool overnight pitch next enzyme.
Works really well. OG typically 1.074
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Teddysad
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Teddysad »

Interesting that no one seems to have commented on your yeast (unless I missed it)
For what you are making, I believe you can get much nicer results with a nice whiskey yeast rather than ec1118. That is a wine / Champagne yeast and brings very little character or flavour into the mix.
As others have said, add the HTL into the heating up water but adjust pH and keep temps at maximum 90c. I have been and continue to experiment with several high temp liquid enzymes and they each have their quirks and following data sheets is important.
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Pierrot Lunaire 55
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Funny you should bring up the yeast. As a matter of fact, I've changed to Red Star Distiller's Active Dry Yeast. Maybe not as whiskey-ish as you're thinking, but a step in the right direction.
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by Bob Bear »

I have found where anyone linked to where they are buying HTL and GL liquid.
Are links not allowed even if you have no affiliation?

Also, I found a good reasonably priced source. With great proven instructions Is sharing the link allowed?
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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by elbono »

Bob Bear wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:10 pm I have found where anyone linked to where they are buying HTL and GL liquid.
Are links not allowed even if you have no affiliation?

Also, I found a good reasonably priced source. With great proven instructions Is sharing the link allowed?
I'm no admin but I think you're ok by rule 12 as long as they're not on this list. I'm on an angel yeast binge but sources for enzymes will be valuable when that ends. Give it a try, if it gets deleted just don't repost it.

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Re: Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Post by acfixer69 »

Links are allowed as help/aids but not as advertising. Giving a positive or negative to a link is how we find the bad and good ones.
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