Still implosion

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
JoeFlipperhead
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:09 pm

Still implosion

Post by JoeFlipperhead »

Hello I recently acquired a 20 gallon copper pot still built by Steven stillz if anyone is familiar. This was my first time distilling and I believe I bit off more than I could chew.

During my first run the vapor came to a stop at the thumper even though the temp was more than enough to get alcohol running. I probably overfilled the thumper if that matters. I also had a fine mist vapor leak from union connecting pot to thumper.

Later on the pressurized vapor blew a hole thru the paste on the cap so I cut the heat and loosened the leaky union to relieve the buildup and my still imploded. I checked for any blockages and found none. Can anyone give me causes to my problems and the appropriate action?
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Still implosion

Post by StillerBoy »

You can start by doing some reading, which will provide info as to why and what, which seems to have not been part of the learning..

app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... itesearch=

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Still implosion

Post by LWTCS »

When you kill the heat on the primary kettle the vapor will collapse. This collapsing will cause a vacuum and will suck liquid in the thumper back into the primary kettle. If the suction overpowers the structural integrity of the thumper walls it will collapse the walls.
I'm assuming there was no vacuum break included with your purchase?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
JoeFlipperhead
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:09 pm

Re: Still implosion

Post by JoeFlipperhead »

No I’ll be sure to get a vacuum breaker next time but I still have numerous problems I need help with

1. I had the pot >190 degrees and I wasn’t seeing a drop of alcohol. The pipe leading to thumper was very hot but the pipe leaving to condenser was cool

2. It was actually the pot that imploded. Did I trigger this by opening the union? If I hadn’t I fear the pot would of exploded from the buildup.

3. In the future after I cut the heat what are the appropriate actions?

Thanks
User avatar
Salt Must Flow
Distiller
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:06 pm
Location: Wuhan China (Novel Coronavirus Laboratory)

Re: Still implosion

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Once the boiler comes up to temp, vapor starts to rise up. Once the thumper comes up to temp vapor will start to exit the thumper and enter the condenser.

The cause of the implosion was explained previously. Opening the boiler to atmosphere after shutting down stops vacuum which causes implosion.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Still implosion

Post by LWTCS »

1. Vapor starts to form at around 190 in the primary with a 10% charge. Gotta throw some more heat at the primary is all. Needs more power because of the thumper.
2. Just get a vacuum break on both kettles.
3. See #2
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Still implosion

Post by StillerBoy »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:21 pm 1. I had the pot >190 degrees and I wasn’t seeing a drop of alcohol. The pipe leading to thumper was very hot but the pipe leaving to condenser was cool
I assuming based on the statement not mentioning the thumper banging and thumping that the primary (pot) haven't generated enough vapors yet to even start heating up the thumper.. you'll know when the thumper starts to be heated..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
Yonder
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:53 pm
Location: Best State in the Union!

Re: Still implosion

Post by Yonder »

So if you’re running a thumper here’s what happens; the alcohol turns to a vapor and enters the cold thumper. The vapor cools and drops its alcohol in the thumper. The liquid in the thumper takes some time to heat up and soon reaches the point where alcohol in the thumper vaporizes, moving on to the cooling coils in the flake stand. At that point you have distilled the wash twice and hopefully produced some potable drink.
During this process you have created an overpressure in both the boiler and thumper. When you cut the power the over pressure dissipated and creates a vacuum. Since the piping from the boiler to the thumper is “underwater” the boiler can’t clear the vacuum created and it collapses.
Next time open the union after shutting off the power.
Double, Double, toil and trouble. Fire Burn and pot still bubble.
User avatar
Chauncey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:30 am
Location: NOLA

Re: Still implosion

Post by Chauncey »

Can we get some pics of the setup? Details on the contents too. Alot of thick mash and grain in the still? Volumes?
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>

When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Still implosion

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Don't feel special , newbies seem to manage this fairly regularly........for some its part of the learning curve.
While this is a fun hobby things can and will go very wrong very quickly if your not paying attention.
That is why one of the number one rules is to never leave a still unattended.
JoeFlipperhead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:29 pm Later on the pressurized vapor blew a hole thru the paste on the cap
This is the bit that worry's me.....why did that happen ?
An Implosion is a way better ending than an explosion.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Still implosion

Post by NZChris »

This might be one of those rare occasion when not watching the still might have had a better outcome than watching it. Because an action was taken without allowing for the consequences, a still was destroyed. I recall doing an experiment that demonstrated this effect when in school, long before I built a still.

A leak in a still is the result of pressure. You should not have any more pressure in a still than is required to get the thumper working. A leak is a sign that you have a problem and that you need to shut down and find the restriction, but you must avoid imploding the still when you turn the heat off. A couple of seconds worth of lost vapor while you disconnect a thumper shouldn't be a problem unless you haven't put your fag out.
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Still implosion

Post by Setsumi »

You state "Later on the pressurized vapor blew a hole thru the paste on the cap so I cut the heat and loosened the leaky union to relieve the buildup and my still imploded."

Did you checked upstream of the loosend union for a blockage?
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
bilgriss
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1690
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 pm
Location: Southeast-ish.

Re: Still implosion

Post by bilgriss »

Sounds like there's a blockage somewhere. You should be able to blow through all the pieces of your system assembled, cold, without back-pressure, and when assembled. And an overfilled thumper will take a long time to heat, comparatively. It doesn't take a huge amount, and it will pick up some liquid from condensation as it heats as well.
User avatar
TwoSheds
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:49 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: Still implosion

Post by TwoSheds »

I was pretty surprised at how much my thumper filled up during a run. From 3/4 to near puking levels! Start low, like 50%, and you'll be safer.

I don't think you mentioned the size of your thumper?

FWIW, though I've tried a dozen different configurations in only about 20 runs, I would advise running in pot still for a couple runs first, then start adding components like plates, packing, and thumpers once you have a feeling for what is going on in the boiler.

Stay safe!

TwoSheds
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Still implosion

Post by StillerBoy »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:29 pm recently acquired a 20 gallon copper pot still built by Steven stillz
https://www.stillzstore.com/stillz.html ... /130699772
TwoSheds wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:55 am I don't think you mentioned the size of your thumper?
He doesn't mention the size of the thumper, but the site only has two sizes of thumpers 2.75 and 2.50 gal which both are way under sized for a 20 gal still.. it unfortunately that sill maker screw people over, but it the old saying, buyer be ware...

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Still implosion

Post by cob »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:29 pm I cut the heat and loosened the leaky union
Loosening a union and breaking a union are two entirely different things.

If you can't see the open end it may still have a seal with the nut loose.
be water my friend
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Still implosion

Post by Kareltje »

A lot of answers have been given, some very good, but alle based on insufficient information from your side.

When you have a boiler with fluid and a thumper (that you did not mention in your intial setup!) filled with fluid, and you cut the heating, there can not occur an implosion of your boiler: it simply would extract all the fluid from the thumper into the boiler.
But your report seems to indicate some kind of blockage, somewhere. Both blocking the vapour from boiler to thumper and fluid from thumper to boiler.

You do not give us sufficient information to help you further.
Metalking00
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Still implosion

Post by Metalking00 »

Each inch of water in a column equals .036 psi. Depending on how high it has to pull the liquid in the thumper up to get it back to the boiler it could be enough of a vaccuum to crush the boiler.

If there was chunky stuff in the thumper that got sucked into the tube and blocked it, then that could definiety do it.

Edit: i looked at the 20 gal still on that site and it says its 38" tall. If it pulled liquid up to the top, that be a vacuum of about 1.5 psi. I think that could be enough to do it.
Last edited by Metalking00 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Still implosion

Post by The Baker »

Implosion was a risk for moonshiners distilling in the open, when sudden rain cooled the vapour in the boiler.

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Still implosion

Post by jonnys_spirit »

551D871B-8FB5-455F-9CA7-ED7CF18C487F.jpeg
This one? In my opinion the vapor tube is too narrow and a liability for becoming clogged.

Are you running electric or flame?

Hot ethanol vapor is very explosive. Install a valve between thumper and boiler that you can open to the atmosphere to prevent the vacuum when shutting down.

Be safe!

Cheers,
-jonny
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Still implosion

Post by shadylane »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:29 pm
I cut the heat and loosened the leaky union to relieve the buildup and my still imploded. I checked for any blockages and found none. Can anyone give me causes to my problems and the appropriate action?
Sounds like you almost relieved the vacuum in time. :(
Next time turn the heat down to a simmer, loosen the union then cut off the heat.
I'd cut the lyne arm in two and solder in a Tee and valve.
And I'd fix the leaky union.
User avatar
Euphoria
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:48 am
Location: Western WA

Re: Still implosion

Post by Euphoria »

When I cut the heat, (electric element,) I open my ball valve on the top of the shoulder of the boiler. Direct air to atmosphere. No implosion problem.
Still 002 (2).JPG
"Government doesn't have the answer to the problem, government is the problem." Ronald Reagan
User avatar
Chauncey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:30 am
Location: NOLA

Re: Still implosion

Post by Chauncey »

Also a I've always had to use a single wrap of Teflon tape on the mating surfaces/threads of the union to keep it from leaking. Just a wrap or two so it would still screw together right.
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>

When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
JoeFlipperhead
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:09 pm

Re: Still implosion

Post by JoeFlipperhead »

Yes the still was the one pictured above. I blew through everything afterwards and couldn’t find any blockages. I did let the still sit awhile after cutting heat. The implosion occurred right as I was loosening the union so I didn’t know if I caused it or was just late saving it.

So if I run until there is little to no vapor left the risk of implosion should be zero?

I’m looking into a completely new setup from north Georgia still company. They have option for ferrule connections instead of unions and a pressure relief valve.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Still implosion

Post by StillerBoy »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 am So if I run until there is little to no vapor left the risk of implosion should be zero?
Before buying a new one, with the above statement, and what you have experience, you need to go back and research how a pot still is run/operated, and went a thumper is attach, what the process is to operate it..

Speed will kill, but in your case, it will drain you account dry.. slow down and learn what's required to be learn to be in the hobby, otherwise, it wouldn't be wise to be for you to participate in..

A Georgia still will be no better than the Steven one.. it wasn't a still issue you experience, it was a lack of knowledge which did the implosion, nothing to with a still.. and a pressure relief valve will not save the still in operating a thumper..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
zach
Swill Maker
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:42 am

Re: Still implosion

Post by zach »

Euphoria wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:24 am When I cut the heat, (electric element,) I open my ball valve on the top of the shoulder of the boiler. Direct air to atmosphere. No implosion problem.

Still 002 (2).JPG
I've got one of these ball valves, and a check valve in parallel which will allow flow in with 1/2 psi of vacuum. If the circuit breaker were to open during a run I didn't want to rely on being close enough to open the valve..
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Still implosion

Post by shadylane »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 am
The implosion occurred right as I was loosening the union so I didn’t know if I caused it or was just late saving it.
Watch the Youtube videos of Pepple collapsing barrels.
They always give it a tap on the side to start it happening.
JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 am So if I run until there is little to no vapor left the risk of implosion should be zero?


The risk of implosion is still there. Turning the heat down to simmer first is a good practice because it allows you to open the boiler vent without a lot of vapor escaping.
JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 am I’m looking into a completely new setup from north Georgia still company. They have option for ferrule connections instead of unions and a pressure relief valve.
Look for a copper pot that is thicker than the one you have.
Pots with rings rolled into its side is stronger than a pot with smooth sides.

What you needed was a vacuum relief valve.
The copper pot blowing the caps paste seal is its pressure relief valve. :shock:
Elevate the thumper, this will make it easier for the pot to suck liquid out of the thumper.

If it was my dented copper pot.
I'd straiten it back out and use it for a thumper. :ewink:
User avatar
Stonecutter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:40 pm
Location: Somewhere within the Milkyway

Re: Still implosion

Post by Stonecutter »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 am Yes the still was the one pictured above. I did let the still sit awhile after cutting heat. The implosion occurred right as I was loosening the union so I didn’t know if I caused it or was just late saving it.

So if I run until there is little to no vapor left the risk of implosion should be zero?
Shut down when you’re done collecting and use some hot pads to remove the column from the boiler.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Still implosion

Post by NZChris »

JoeFlipperhead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 amSo if I run until there is little to no vapor left the risk of implosion should be zero?
As long as you are boiling some type of liquid in it, it will be filled with vapor.

When liquid from the thumper gets sucked into the main pot, it is cooler than the vapor in the pot and will create even more vacuum as it speeds up the vapor collapse.
User avatar
Stonecutter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:40 pm
Location: Somewhere within the Milkyway

Re: Still implosion

Post by Stonecutter »

I got the still pictures mixed up Joe. I can see why you can’t simply remove head right after running it. :oops:
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
Post Reply