Equipment and wash:
Vevor 30l football “column” (potstill)
1400watt hot plate
20l wash based on full grain 2pale ale (safe us 05 yeast) (I brew beer for a long time) - 6.56%abv
At first everything went ok. Temperature raised and I started collecting around 60c (discarded the first 100ml even if this was a stripping run). Based on the thermometer I was stable at 79-81c after collecting roughly 1liter (75%, 70%… last was 50%). The temperature dropped to 70c then 60c… what hell? I thought it would continue to raise up to 98 plus… then I stop the distill.
Anyone can shed some light why that happened? Was I out of ethanol?
jpsobral wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:20 am
Anyone can shed some light why that happened? Was I out of ethanol?
The end result was 1 liter of low wines at 60%
Simple.. you distilled by temperature instead of by power usage base on the out put at the spout.. further more, with the last jar being at 60% ABV, you left lots of alcohol in the wash..
More research is needed before moving forward, it's clear there's lack of knowledge on distilling..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
There's nothing wrong with observing vapor temp. I would expect to see the vapor temp rise throughout a stripping run. Did you turn the power down at all or did you strip at a set power level?
A lot of electric hot plates do not run at a continuous steady power. Power often turns on and off as an intended safety feature. I don't know if that might be the cause of temp drops.
The plate was at max and yes it goes in and out (thermostat) but quite fast.
Stillerboy I understand your point and definitely I still need to read a ton but sometimes doing it once in practice also opens your eyes. I knew I left a lot of alcohol on the mash but still I didn’t get the logic shouldn’t the vapor temp continue to increase?
Should I just monitor the alcohol output until I got a 20% abv?
jpsobral wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:23 am
but still I didn’t get the logic shouldn’t the vapor temp continue to increase?
Should I just monitor the alcohol output until I got a 20% abv?
Stillin with a pot setup is about manage the output at the spout, not if the temp is raising or not, and by managing the amount of power used.. less power less output, more power more output.. in your case, 1400w of power will be slow climb of output vapors especially on 20L run and especially as the alcohol depletion occurs..
As to the second item, you got that right, as the end of a run is monitor by the ABV of either the jar or the overall output..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
How deep into tails people strip often differs. Generally when stripping flavored spirits people often strip more. Many that strip sugar washes or mashes for neutrals claim they strip less in comparison. There's a lot of threads on this forum that cover how deep people strip.
In my experience, when I've stripped an 8%-10% ABV wash until the total collected product was 40% ABV, what's left in the boiler was 3% ABV. If you're stripping relatively larger fermentations, that could be considered as a significant amount of alcohol left in the boiler. I've stripped using my packed reflux column with the reflux condenser removed and capped. Once the total collected stripped product was 40% ABV I installed the reflux condenser and pulled the remaining alcohol out of the wash. That resulted in a 25% increase of collected product after my following spirit run and cuts. I thought it was worth the little extra time. I suppose this only good for neutral spirits or for gathering feints from flavored spirits to later do a neutral spirit run with the feints.
I am aiming on focusing my knowledge in whiskey and brandies. So alambic / pot still for now.
I just think I need to upgrade sooner than later equipment this chinese stuff only takes you to a certain point and poorly. But I will open a threat about.
I am now running the spirit run on the low wines I got and let you know how it went.
To your original question, what you saw doesn't make sense. As you boil the wash or mash the ABV goes down which raises the boiling temperature. The vapor temperature also rises even though it may be cooler than the liquid at a point down stream.
So something odd probably happened. Undetected vapor leak? Crappy thermometer crapped out? Something with the heat input?
Unlike most people here I don't think a thermometer on a pot still is totally devoid of information but this is a good example of why you don't run the still by the thermometer. It led you to end your run early.
Did your output rate drop dramatically? That would indicate either the first or third reason I give.
Any smells/aroma in the area? That would indicate the first.
My guess is the second.
I started with your stills little brother not that long ago. While I learned a lot with it I spent a lot of time dealing with it's faults that could have been better spent.
The biggest value I got from my amazon still was seeing things to avoid when I built my own.
My advice play with this still a little bit and decide if you want to devote the time to really learn all you need to know. I've been at it a little less than two years fairly regularly and there is so much I still need to learn...
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
For flavored products you are stopping your strips far too early, leaving much flavor and alcohol in the backset.
Tape over the thermometer so that you can't read it, then run by controlling the output stream. I copy what some commercial pot stillers do and run until the total low wines collection is around the same as theirs, 24-28% depending on the product.
If your still doesn't have much copper in it, fix that by adding some to the boiler and vapor path.
Hot plates often give newbies trouble. Controlling the power with the built in simmerstat isn't ideal because it continually switches the power on and off, plus most of them have a built in safety feature that switches off the largest internal element if the plate gets too hot, so a 1400W plate might only be putting out 700W after the plate gets hot enough to trip it's internal thermostat.
I strip a little less than a third of my of my boiler charge: 1G of low wines out of a 3.5G charge. Usually the low wines wind up being 25%-28% abv. My ferments come out right at 8-9% too. No need to watch temps this way.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting. Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
First think I would recommend is get rid of the hot plate or figure out how to bypass the safety switch so you have continuous power to your still. The heat kicking on and off will cause nothing but problems.
I will also support the opinions already posted. Learn what you can from this still (mostly what NOT to do) and build your own. If you look at my rigs in my signature, you can see that I reused the pot from my Crapazon still and scrapped the rest. Yours is nicer than mine was so you'll be able to build off of your pot a lot easier. I had to add my own ferrule to switch to 2" but it looks like yours might already be 2?
Fix your heating source, ignore the thermometer for a while, and start running your still using your senses of feel, smell, and taste and I guarantee you see marked improvement in the product coming out of the spout.
At first everything went ok. Temperature raised and I started collecting around 60c.... Based on the thermometer I was stable at 79-81c after collecting roughly 1liter (75%, 70%… last was 50%). The temperature dropped to 70c then 60c… what hell? I thought it would continue to raise up to 98 plus… then I stop the distill.
Anyone can shed some light why that happened? Was I out of ethanol?
The analog thermometer broke, or the heating element shut completely off.
Have you tried heating some water in the pot to see if it still works.
@Elbono the thermometer lower slowly the rate of the drops did not change too much. I have a faint sweet smell near the spout. I used a small mirror near the spout and all around the major connections of the still and I did not find any leaks - things are tight. I think is the hot plate (on and off - I have an idea for this and post it later). Concerning the still I added copper mesh inside the football ball and my neighbour is a plumber and give me a coper pipe for the spout instead of using the small stainless steal spout that comes with the distill. Since this piece is meant to fit in on the chiller "it is not soldered" I always add dough around it.
@NZChris agreed the hot plate becomes an annoying variable. I have an idea to bypass the thermostat or better make it more resistant to switch off.
If you didn't have leaks and the output rate didn't drop with temp reading I vote bad thermometer. Thermometers, especially cheap ones break. This is only one of the reasons they aren't liked here. Don't drive the still by the thermometer.
Power changing will change boiling rate and output rate that's why I don't think it was the cause of what you saw. This is why you don't want the pulsating power from the hotplate. Power controllers, basically huge light dimmers, or gas heat are the normal solutions used.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
An update on the spirit run I did on the remaining stuff. So I went with smell, measuring abv and was able to cut around 8 jars, the max alcohol extract in a small jar 150ml was 70% then dropping up to 20% abv. I couldn't get rid of the sweet smell / nail polish flavour it got better on the hearts jar and can be slightly at the tails. So it seems I could not perform a good separation and I doubt I was running the still too fast? I mean hot plate 1400w with thermostat can make you fly even if you wanted to.
A coupe of questions:
I have a pear wine kind of around the corner for a second try. I will do a stripping run to 20-18% and then a spirit run - not sure if I should touch the heating source power (1 to 5)? The truth is at its max (5) the hot plate can only make the still dripping (and not that fast dripping).
If I strip the volume of 20l to 4l of alcohol assume already cutted (< 40%). Should I increase the volume up to 10liters in a 30liters still, is there a minimum of liters we should have em relation with the volume the still?
During the spirit run how can I avoid having nail polish flavour during all the run?
Anyhow I will use the "finished product", not even going to call attempting whiskey for lightning my bbqs (another of my hobbies where I at least can use weber smoker mountain steady 24 hours for a nice pull pork ).
Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:30 am
Why would one of those cheap stills have anything but a cheap thermometer on it ....you get what you pay for.
No questions about it. I knew it was a cheap still.
jpsobral wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:40 am
So it seems I could not perform a good separation and I doubt I was running the still too fast? I mean hot plate 1400w with thermostat can make you fly even if you wanted to.
Dont worry so much about the 1400w ...worry more about how fast booze is exiting the still......if its not leaving the still very slowly its not seperating the fractions well...........you might need to get a controller to help with that.
jpsobral wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:40 am
... not sure if I should touch the heating source power (1 to 5)? The truth is at its max (5) the hot plate can only make the still dripping (and not that fast dripping).
jpsobral wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:20 am
20l wash based on full grain 2pale ale (safe us 05 yeast) (I brew beer for a long time) - 6.56%abv
Get a bigger fermenter and/or brew more.
I have a 30L pot still and I don't waste time with 20L charges (unless I am given some exotic ingredient that won't stretch any further).
A 20L mash tun will make you a lot of beer, but it is woefully undersized for making Whisky. My mash tun is 75L and its barely sufficient.
The end result was 1 liter of low wines at 60%.
This is like a commercial distillery having a 20,000L wash still and a 1000L spirit still. They wouldn't make much product and they'd waste even more.
Your heat source is unsustainable. The volume of wash/mash is easily solved, but you'll never make a decent flavoured product with a drip. There are compounds in your wash that will never make the collection jar if there is insufficient energy to push them out the condenser.
SaltyStaves wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:57 am
Your point on having a larger fermenter and doing multiple stripping runs collect and do a proper spirit run makes totally sense.
This is like a commercial distillery having a 20,000L wash still and a 1000L spirit still. They wouldn't make much product and they'd waste even more.
Your heat source is unsustainable. The volume of wash/mash is easily solved, but you'll never make a decent flavoured product with a drip. There are compounds in your wash that will never make the collection jar if there is insufficient energy to push them out the condenser.
A side question without derailing too much on this thread. For a long time I am “dating” a grainfather 30G which allows me to use the dome t500. Is this a good set (I read good things about it) ? My thinking previously was more around the beer but if this is alright for good home distilling then is 2 birds in one stone (at least for awhile).
Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:30 am
Why would one of those cheap stills have anything but a cheap thermometer on it ....you get what you pay for.
No questions about it. I knew it was a cheap still.
Many of the thermometers of that design can be calibrated.
I can tell straight away that your cheap thermometer is rooted. You said it was “holding steady at 79-81 degrees” during your stripping run. No…for a boiler charge that low in alcohol, your real vapour temp would’ve been right up in the 90s.
You can run a small still like that without using a thermometer. Simply use cut jars and monitor your ABV throughout the run.
I am happy to tell you all that I talked with vevor and they give 50% refund on this distill (I will use it as a fermenter, just need to add a tap on it)! I am selling my Brewster 40l (brewer machine) and bought a Grainfather g30 with the alambic dome setup. Later I can add as well the reflux column directly on the dome (like the picture below.
I can now have two things I like in one machine (brew beer and distill)! Still a lot to learn and appreciate all the comments and feedback. Great community
only time i saw temp go up, up up and then down, the mash foamed and blocked the heat from the thermometer. i didn't stop. then the heat got thru, the same time i witnessed the biggest puke of my distilling career.
HDNB wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:08 pm
only time i saw temp go up, up up and then down, the mash foamed and blocked the heat from the thermometer. i didn't stop. then the heat got thru, the same time i witnessed the biggest puke of my distilling career.
I left enough head space and afterwards I checked the equipment all clean. That lesson I learned long time ago when brewing beer! Too greedy and when the mash started to boil I had foam everywhere
).
