1.5 distillation?

[wpkluck]

If you double run through a thumper is it 3x?. I would say no.

Then by all means you should call it what you believe. I’m not gonna tell someone what to call their own hooch. Or how to characterize it. I would hope no one would tell me how to characterize mine. Especially someone who isn’t in the room when I making it.

[NZChris]

I kinda agree with the op, cos 1.5 isn't helpful term.

It is helpful as long as everyone here understands that it is merely a name for a particular style of distillation that is described in the Glossary.

See Single footin' in the Glossary. If that is what you are doing, why not use the definition already provided in the Glossary?

[LWTCS]

If a thumper was a condenser it wouldn’t evaporate any of the alcohols and no vapor would come out.

It has to be up to temp to evap any - and if it’s up to temp it won’t condense those alcohols that are already vapor. This isn’t theory.

That’s pretty simple?

Not disagreeing necessarily.
The first responsibility of the liquid bed in the thumper is to condense. So at the very least the thumper could be considered a partial condenser.

However as you allude, if the incoming vapor is hotter (Notwithstanding heat loss, it should be.) than the temperature needed to flash the constituents within the thumper, then it is reasonable to understand that some of that incoming vapor may not go through a phase change cycle. A good example of this is when the operator ends up with less liquid in the thumper than when they started.

[wpkluck]

It is helpful as long as everyone here understands that it is merely a name for a particular style of distillation that is described in the Glossary.

See Single footin' in the Glossary. If that is what you are doing, why not use the definition already provided in the Glossary?

So it is if it is, and it’s not if it’s not. Profound. And I don’t know who was talking about single footing, so I guess I could bring up any term and say hey use that if you’re doing that!

[jward]

This was taken from the glossary Chris linked.

Distillation The process of boiling and condensing a mixture of volatile liquids that changes the relative concentrations of those liquids in the output.

Distilling 1.5 Process for doing multiple runs; First run is a stripping run, second run you add the low wines in, top up with fresh wash and do a finishing run.

So this would suggest that the name many use for a "thump run" is misleading and actually incorrect if the glossary is to be believed.

I kinda agree with the op, cos 1.5 isn't helpful term.

If you double run through a thumper is it 3x?. I would say no.

Just the 2 pence of a newb

Cheers SomethingObscure

I find Distilling 1.5 a useful term when it indicates the process described by the glossary. When it gets overloaded or conflated with other processes it not as much. Just my 2 cents as a novice.

[SomethingObscure]

This was taken from the glossary Chris linked.

Distillation The process of boiling and condensing a mixture of volatile liquids that changes the relative concentrations of those liquids in the output.

Distilling 1.5 Process for doing multiple runs; First run is a stripping run, second run you add the low wines in, top up with fresh wash and do a finishing run.

So this would suggest that the name many use for a "thump run" is misleading and actually incorrect if the glossary is to be believed.

I kinda agree with the op, cos 1.5 isn't helpful term.

If you double run through a thumper is it 3x?. I would say no.

Just the 2 pence of a newb

Cheers SomethingObscure

I find Distilling 1.5 a useful term when it indicates the process described by the glossary. When it gets overloaded or conflated with other processes it not as much. Just my 2 cents as a novice.

Jward. That was what I meant.

[wpkluck]

The most ridiculous part of this argument, is that people care what I call my own hooch. I look at it this way:

- Let's say XXX is something that goes thru the pot 3 times. Easy to agree this is XXX. However, what ends up in the jar isn't all XXX. At some point, you're adding AT LEAST distilled water, as you temper. If not, you'd be drinking near 180p (probably what the old-timers really meant, anyway!)

- SO if you're going to call ANY tempered liquor XXX, who's to say that I can't temper with low ABV? Low wines? Fruit flavors in the thumper? If you're tempering below 80p, there is less than 50% of ANY alcohol in there, so YOU can't call it XXX.

- Oh well, fortunately, I follow the law on this one. My law is that if I triple distilled, it's XXX. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to drink it. I do, and I will, and mine is XXX (and I defy you to take a jar, and prove otherwise!).

Enjoy the hobby, at least as much as I've enjoyed learning from this debate!

[haggy]

There's some talk about modelling pot still with thumper that is fairly recent, I did some cursory searching and couldn't find the thread but there's been recent discussion with actual data from real world runs. Might be worth some searching to find it.

Edit, pretty sure this is the one: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 3#p7640076

I am haggy, the author of the above thread. I have developed what I think is a realistic calculation of the pot with thumper operation. It is based on engineering principles, not an empirical model. Go to the end of the thread and you will see the final spreadsheet results. Both the predicted product %ABV and gal made have agreed with real data from many run posts. In the long run, maybe we will get to the point where the model can be included in the HD calculator section.

A wide variety of input data sets to the pot and thumper have been studied. The model can help in planning your next run, testing if/when the pot will empty, seeing if the thumper will overflow (puke), estimating how long a time the run will take, seeing the effect of running at different kW power inputs on % heat losses, seeing the effect of different %ABV and volume charges to the thumper, etc.

I would be glad to use the model to calculate the results for an input data set from anyone. Just send me a PM with your input conditions. Then you can see for yourself how many distillations have resulted.

[ezlle71]

The most ridiculous part of this argument, is that people care what I call my own hooch. I look at it this way:

- Let's say XXX is something that goes thru the pot 3 times. Easy to agree this is XXX. However, what ends up in the jar isn't all XXX. At some point, you're adding AT LEAST distilled water, as you temper. If not, you'd be drinking near 180p (probably what the old-timers really meant, anyway!)

- SO if you're going to call ANY tempered liquor XXX, who's to say that I can't temper with low ABV? Low wines? Fruit flavors in the thumper? If you're tempering below 80p, there is less than 50% of ANY alcohol in there, so YOU can't call it XXX.

- Oh well, fortunately, I follow the law on this one. My law is that if I triple distilled, it's XXX. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to drink it. I do, and I will, and mine is XXX (and I defy you to take a jar, and prove otherwise!).

Enjoy the hobby, at least as much as I've enjoyed learning from this debate!

I do see your point on the use of a thumper or not in reference to the 1.5 distillations discussion. As i went back and did some rereading and seen where the 1.5 designation came from low wines mixed with fresh wash on run verses a thump with low wines and wash in the boiler. I think there is some gray area we all have our opinion on, which is what makes this hobby fasinating.

I have read and reread this thread at least 3 times, I have not seen where anybody was MAKING you do anything. You asked for opinions, when people gave you their opinions you flew off the handle and started throwing shade at everybody who commented. I honestly believe nobody here cares what you call what you make, sky is the limit there. Good luck and stay safe

[wpkluck]

I do see your point on the use of a thumper or not in reference to the 1.5 distillations discussion. As i went back and did some rereading and seen where the 1.5 designation came from low wines mixed with fresh wash on run verses a thump with low wines and wash in the boiler. I think there is some gray area we all have our opinion on, which is what makes this hobby fasinating.

I have read and reread this thread at least 3 times, I have not seen where anybody was MAKING you do anything. You asked for opinions, when people gave you their opinions you flew off the handle and started throwing shade at everybody who commented. I honestly believe nobody here cares what you call what you make, sky is the limit there. Good luck and stay safe

No, no one can make me do anything. But they did say what I need to do, and what things are, as if they were authoritative.

I never flew off the handle, I find self-righteous people aggravating. I don’t throw shade, and yes I did ask for opinion. And then I challenge that opinion. That’s what a debate is, opinion and challenge.

Since you read the thread, you know that people care what it’s called. But I don’t care what they call their stuff, I know what I’m calling mine.

[SassyFrass]

Been sorta kinda following this thread...and I figure it dont matter what you call your likker when you are drinking it. Each to their own.
I have a pot with a thumper (2ea. 15.5 kegs) propane heated. When I was running it, if I ran a strip run that was 1 x distillation, when I ran low wines thru that was 2 x distillation. If I added fresh wash/mash/must to low wines that was 1.5 x distillation and needed to be run again to get the product I wanted.
I've always run low and slow, yes even for strip runs. It's a little faster than spirit run, but not much.
I normally dont put X's on my jugs, but if I did it would mean to NOT drink what's in that jug.
You can call your likker whatever you like, you are the only one you really have to please. Unless you're married and want to stay that way. Then you better make sure SOH is happy too.
Haggy's calculator looks very promising for folks to use. The math's etc...are way over this hillbilly's head though. I do things a bit more old fashioned than many folks on here.
It all breaks down to do you enjoy what you make and are you having fun making it.
Just my $.02
SF

[wpkluck]

Been sorta kinda following this thread...and I figure it dont matter what you call your likker when you are drinking it. Each to their own.
I have a pot with a thumper (2ea. 15.5 kegs) propane heated. When I was running it, if I ran a strip run that was 1 x distillation, when I ran low wines thru that was 2 x distillation. If I added fresh wash/mash/must to low wines that was 1.5 x distillation and needed to be run again to get the product I wanted.
I've always run low and slow, yes even for strip runs. It's a little faster than spirit run, but not much.
I normally dont put X's on my jugs, but if I did it would mean to NOT drink what's in that jug.
You can call your likker whatever you like, you are the only one you really have to please. Unless you're married and want to stay that way. Then you better make sure SOH is happy too.
Haggy's calculator looks very promising for folks to use. The math's etc...are way over this hillbilly's head though. I do things a bit more old fashioned than many folks on here.
It all breaks down to do you enjoy what you make and are you having fun making it.
Just my $.02
SF

Great way to put it! (Just my 1.5 cents!)

[jward]

The most ridiculous part of this argument, is that people care what I call my own hooch.

It's one thing to call your stuff whatever you want. I respect your freedom to do that. It's another thing for what you call your stuff to have meaning to others especially in a discussion.

[wpkluck]

It's one thing to call your stuff whatever you want. I respect your freedom to do that. It's another thing for what you call your stuff to have meaning to others especially in a discussion.

I couldn't agree more. It's why I look for meaning in the terms. It appears there is a great latitude in the terms used, even diverging from the glossary. That's to be expected, there are a great many people contributing here, all with different backgrounds and experiences. When everyone thinks they have to true perspective, even honest questions appear to have subtext or agenda. Not my intention, for sure.

[acfixer69]

That's Bull Shit right there. But you got the floor. We got our own glossary. When in Rome find a translation.

[wpkluck]

That's Bull Shit right there. But you got the floor. We got our own glossary. When in Rome find a translation.

I refer to the homedistiller.org glossary, of course. When on other platforms, it’s polite to use theirs, if they have one. I looked up both thumper, and 1.5 distilled, and I think we can all at least agree what it says.

[adamf]

I believe that Mr. Turkentine can answer this 1.5 conundrum.
Take a look:

Great post! Hilarious!

[squigglefunk]

is it 1.5 distillations or 1.5 times smeared?

[BlueSasquatch]

Odd how quickly folks can get agitated by one another.

One can call their own product, whatever they want. I can call the sky white instead of blue if I want, but that doesn't make me correct. Unless you want to get all abstract with philosophy and take away actual definitions, then what the fuck are we doing anyways.

I think alot of the confusion with Thumpers revolves around their contents. The only right answer to "Is a thumper 1.5x Distillation or 2x?" is "It depends on what you put in it."

A thumper works the same way as a boiler, liquid within is heated by an external source, until alcohol vapor is formed. For many boilers that is Direct-fire or electric element. But you can also have a ban-marie oil type heat source, in the case of the thumper, steam is the heat source, and in this case, it also increases the volume as the steam not only brings heat/energy with it but liquid as well.

IF you were to run a thumper DRY and run WASH in your boiler, in theory you would have 2x distilled product at the end. But only if your vapor from your boiler condensed in the thumper, prior to becoming vapor once more. - An in-line condenser between your boiler and your thumper could do this, in theory, but it would eventually need to be turned off, so that the steam could then heat the thumper, so you'd have to have a sample port down either in the line or off the thumper to see what you have and when it's down to that end-of-tails cut off point. Then turn off the in-line condenser, let your boiler send steam to your thumper and run as normal - End glass product will have been stripped and spirit ran. Not sure what this gets you, that you couldn't get with just two "standard" runs.

If a thumper has LOW WINES or 1x ran product, and the boiler has WATER, then your process would give you 2x distilled product. And be very little difference, over just loading the boiler with the low wines.

If a thumper has LOW WINES or 1x ran product, and your boiler has WATER, your product should be able to condenser a fair amount before the thumper charge is up to vapor temps. However I don't know if you'd get a complete conversion before the thumper started producing. I don't believe you would, which means it's likely some of your BOILER low-wines would not condense, and thus cannot be double distilled. Yet some of it would have to be, in order to get the thumper to produce. So you're looking at a boiler charge that will be between 1-2x distilled, the average without more evidence, is 1.5x

If a thumper has LOW WINES or 1x ran product, and your boiler has LOW WINES or 1x ran product, your product should be able to condenser a fair amount before the thumper charge is up to vapor temps. However I don't know if you'd get a complete conversion before the thumper started producing. I don't believe you would, which means it's likely some of your BOILER low-wines would not condense, and thus cannot be double distilled. Yet some of it would have to be, in order to get the thumper to produce. So you're looking at a thumper charge that in the end will be 2x distilled and a boiler charge that will be between 1-2x distilled, the average without more evidence, is 1.5x so a 2x+1.5x /2 = 1.75x product.

My interest in my own thumper, is to distill on-grain as a stripping run.

[Chauncey]

I think you need to edit that you mixed up some of the bold parts I believe

[Hügelwilli]

I think alot of the confusion with Thumpers revolves around their contents. The only right answer to "Is a thumper 1.5x Distillation or 2x?" is "It depends on what you put in it."

Yes, but I think some of your conclusions are not right.

If you start with an empty thumper, all of the product you get will be double distilled. But it will be distilled at a very low abv. The product abv will not be much higher than with a run without thumper, although it is technically double distilled.
The result is that your product will have tails similar to a stripped wash and therefore needs another distillation.
The reason is because the small liquid bed in the thumper will run out of alcohol at the same time it forms. There will be only a slightly higher abv in the thumper liquid than in the boiler liquid during the whole distillation.

If you start with wash in the boiler and thumper, some of the product will be technically only single distilled, but will be at higher abv and therefore containing less tails than the double distilled product you get when you start with an empty thumper.

To charge the thumper with alcohol in general leads to a higher and longer stable abv during the run. And the more liquid you have in the thumper compared to what you have in the boiler the more stable the abv will be. But of course everything you put in the boiler only gets distilled one time, what has consequences on taste.


Perhaps many will disagree, but therefore I think a thumper is useful only if you have always feints to charge it. And for steam stripping.

[Yummyrum]

Perhaps many will disagree, but therefore I think a thumper is useful only if you have always feints to charge it. And for steam stripping.

Not used mine a great deal , but I have come to that same conclusion.... On both accounts .

[BlueSasquatch]

How I feel writing that up, less humorous if you're not a Always Sunny in Philadelphia fan.

Re-read my post and it matches what my thoughts were, but I'm probably misunderstanding something. . An empty thumper, I feel would condense very little and you'd end up just blowing through it, without much of it condensing, pulling numbers out of my ass here but like a 1.10 or 1.25 distillation, depending on how well you have things insulated, as the only natural form of condensation would be the air temp, so again doing it in an Aussie summer and you're not gonna get diddly squat for condensation and re-distillation. Which is why thumpers are charged with something in the first place.

[jonnys_spirit]

I've never gone through the trouble of using a thumper because of these issues. It's not a one size fits all solution that's necessarily "better".

Steam stripping on grain would certainly be a benefit but squeezing and then stripping isn't that hard either and it works great with a strip/spirit protocol...

Just my thoughts

Cheers!
-jonny

[BlueSasquatch]

I've never gone through the trouble of using a thumper because of these issues. It's not a one size fits all solution that's necessarily "better".

Steam stripping on grain would certainly be a benefit but squeezing and then stripping isn't that hard either and it works great with a strip/spirit protocol...

Just my thoughts

Cheers!
-jonny

True, I'm chasing max flavor and the camp is about 50% who say it's better on grain vs off grain, so I'm gonna try it and see for myself. If nothing else, never squeezing grain is worth it to me. I had 9 buckets once, prep to distill took most of the damn day!

[jonnys_spirit]

I've never gone through the trouble of using a thumper because of these issues. It's not a one size fits all solution that's necessarily "better".

Steam stripping on grain would certainly be a benefit but squeezing and then stripping isn't that hard either and it works great with a strip/spirit protocol...

Just my thoughts

Cheers!
-jonny

True, I'm chasing max flavor and the camp is about 50% who say it's better on grain vs off grain, so I'm gonna try it and see for myself. If nothing else, never squeezing grain is worth it to me. I had 9 buckets once, prep to distill took most of the damn day!

Huh - It take me about an hour to squeeze a 50 gallon batch of corn/wheat/barley bourbon grains while i'm stripping the first clear strip siphoned off the top..

Maybe try a large batch if that's feasible?

Cheers!
-j

[BlueSasquatch]

Huh - It take me about an hour to squeeze a 50 gallon batch of corn/wheat/barley bourbon grains while i'm stripping the first clear strip siphoned off the top..

Maybe try a large batch if that's feasible?

Cheers!
-j

The BIAB I use to squeeze grain, and how much one can squeeze with hands and not just chase liquid around, dictates my speed. I then haul it out to the compost. Also you know, little kids running around, pets, buncha external crap that slows one down. I started using a mop bucket w/ringer, and that helps, but the whole thing will be a moot point, stripping on-grain.

I'll do a couple batches off grain probably, but unless the results speak for themselves, I'll stick with never bothering with the grain, just toss it out with the wash at the end.

[jonnys_spirit]

Huh - It take me about an hour to squeeze a 50 gallon batch of corn/wheat/barley bourbon grains while i'm stripping the first clear strip siphoned off the top..

Maybe try a large batch if that's feasible?

Cheers!
-j

The BIAB I use to squeeze grain, and how much one can squeeze with hands and not just chase liquid around, dictates my speed. I then haul it out to the compost. Also you know, little kids running around, pets, buncha external crap that slows one down. I started using a mop bucket w/ringer, and that helps, but the whole thing will be a moot point, stripping on-grain.

I'll do a couple batches off grain probably, but unless the results speak for themselves, I'll stick with never bothering with the grain, just toss it out with the wash at the end.

The only thing that keeps me from using a steam stripper/thumper to strip on grain is dealing with 15 gallons of hot slop mess after a strip. Right now I can do two strips in a day with squeezing - I'd have to wait for the 15g thump to cool down to empty it into the compost - which the dog loves btw

Cheers!
-j

[Hügelwilli]

An empty thumper, I feel would condense very little and you'd end up just blowing through it, without much of it condensing, pulling numbers out of my ass here but like a 1.10 or 1.25 distillation, depending on how well you have things insulated, as the only natural form of condensation would be the air temp, so again doing it in an Aussie summer and you're not gonna get diddly squat for condensation and re-distillation. Which is why thumpers are charged with something in the first place.

If it blows through or is condensed and evaporated again makes no difference if the thumper is almost empty.

What I wanted to say is that to reach 1 or 1.5 or 2 distillations is only one of two same important factors. The other factor is at what abv the distillations are happening. And this depends not only on the charge abvs in boiler and thumper but also same important on the ratio of amounts in the two vessels.

And I think you overrate the effect of high ambient temperature. Say we distill with identical stills at 90°C, I in Europe have 20°C, you in Australia 35°C, this means I have a temperature difference of 70°C and you 55°C. This means when I have 10ml/min reflux and 90ml/min product, you have 10 x 55 / 70 = 7.9ml/min reflux and 92.1ml/min product.

[StillerBoy]

And I think you overrate the effect of high ambient temperature. Say we distill with identical stills at 90°C, I in Europe have 20°C, you in Australia 35°C, this means I have a temperature difference of 70°C and you 55°C. This means when I have 10ml/min reflux and 90ml/min product, you have 10 x 55 / 70 = 7.9ml/min reflux and 92.1ml/min product.

Hugel.. could you clarify this ambient temp different create product output difference, and what style of still are you using to make refer to reflux..

Mars