CCVM reflux coil questions

[Sailman]

So I guess I should start with a little about my setup, It's a 15 gal keg with a 5500 watt element. On top will be 2 -20 in long 2in diameter copper sections for a total of 40 inches. This will be packed with copper mesh.

I read a few posts about how to wind single and double coils and I think I'm gonna use the way that Hook outlines in his PDF file. In the pictures you'll see 2 different sizes of pipe one copper and 1PVC the copper is going to be used for the internal mandrel and the PVC for the outer mandrel. This is as close as I can find as far as sizes to what Hook recommends using. Will this work? Also he recommends using a coral of around 6" or so is this going to be enough to knock down regular operating wattage? I went and picked up a 20' roll of quarter inch soft copper tubing and I can make the call bigger if I need to. I was thinking that the coil would go below the of the take off about 2" to create total reflux, is this going to be enough or does it need to extend further?
I guess the last question I have is that the section above the T is 6" long from the ferrule , Is this going to be long enough or should I make it longer to support the supply and return ends of the copper. The 6" coil will still be be inside of everything even with no reflux. With it raised with no reflux that will leave about 3 to 4" outside to the 90 bend on the supply and return.

[drmiller100]

1/4 id or od?

2500 watts is a LOT for a 2 inch packed column.

[Sailman]

1/4 id or od?

2500 watts is a LOT for a 2 inch packed column.

OD , I may not have to run 2500 W it all depends on how much I need to drive the system

[drmiller100]

1/4 inch od is marginal for anything over 2500 watts. Tubing doesn't flow enough unless you make 2 parallel coolers.

5/16 flows a lot more.

When working copper annealing is an easy, handy skill.

I can't help with vm. Never made one.

[Salt Must Flow]

I used 5/16" for my double coil, but it was for a 3" VM. I was afraid to risk using larger dia tubing and not being able to manage winding it. If you can do a double wound continuous coil for your 2", I would go that rout. Fill that copper tubing with fine salt though. My reflux condenser is 9" long and it knocks down 5500W easily at 100% reflux. I imagine something approx that length in a 2" should probably work fine too.

[Skipper1953]

I used 1/4"od tubing to make a continuous double coil about 9" long. I filled the tubing with water and crimped the ends. Worked a treat. It slides easily into my 2" copper CCVM head.

It can knock down all my boiler can send it at somewhere between 4k and 5k watts. That's just boiling water, no alcohol. I know I'll never need that much condenser when distilling alcohol. It's good to know I have it, though.

[shadylane]

I'm thinking 1/4od would be just right for a 2" reflux condenser.

[OtisT]

I'm thinking 1/4od would be just right for a 2" reflux condenser.

+1

[Sailman]

Thanks for all the replies and I think I'm gonna stick with the quarter inch double coil. I was going to use the method by hook but I've also seen where a lot of people use salt. So right now I'm up in the air about that what do you think would be better packing the packing the tube with salt or no salt?

[shadylane]

I've heard some people have a hard time getting the salt to dissolve.
My vote is to crimp one end, fill the tube with water and flatten the other end.

[Salt Must Flow]

I crimp one end and fill with salt using a little funnel taped to the end. I stood on the roof of the first level of my house to make filling easier. After coiling the condenser I connect one of the ends to home water pressure. After a while it will blow through. It just takes time. I've never heard of an instance where it never cleared by doing it this way. Salt worked better than water or freezing the water inside in my experience because I experienced flattening where I've never experienced flattening with salt. For that reason, I'll always use salt.

[Stonecutter]

I read a few posts about how to wind single and double coils and I think I'm gonna use the way that Hook outlines in his PDF file. In the pictures you'll see 2 different sizes of pipe one copper and 1PVC the copper is going to be used for the internal mandrel and the PVC for the outer mandrel. This is as close as I can find as far as sizes to what Hook recommends using. Will this work? .

Sailman, do you happen to have a link to the Hook thread? I’m going to take another crack at a coil and I’m having a hard time finding tube diameters for a 2” column. I’ve attempted to wind a couple coils. The first was a practice and I filled with water but I could never get the ends crimped tight enough. The other I filled with salt and was able to get a “coil” it was just hideous and too big for my column. I suggest salt. The only compression I got was at the top where the funnel was but I believe that had more to do with me and less you do with the salt. Make sure you pack it tight all the way up.

Edit:I never did put the sledge hammer to the pipe. I’m sure if you beat on it you’ll get a mighty fine crimp.

[Salt Must Flow]

This 1/4" ID x 24" long double wound coil fit inside 2" copper pipe. It was filled with salt, wound flawlessly and cleared with water.

[NormandieStill]

This 1/4" ID x 24" long double wound coil fit inside 2" copper pipe. It was filled with salt, wound flawlessly and cleared with water.

But not wound in one piece judging by the sweated copper joints?

[Salt Must Flow]

This 1/4" ID x 24" long double wound coil fit inside 2" copper pipe. It was filled with salt, wound flawlessly and cleared with water.

But not wound in one piece judging by the sweated copper joints?

No, not a continuous coil. I wound each coil using two different mandrels because it was easier for me and with the 90 elbows, it made it simple to connect each coil to each other. I posted this as an example only because even a coil this long filled with salt will clear with water. I don't know of any example that gives reason to be concerned with using salt.

[OtisT]

That coil is a beast SMF. Holy cow. Otis

[Salt Must Flow]

That coil is a beast SMF. Holy cow. Otis

Yeah I was trying to not have to make a shotgun condenser so I wound that big ol bastard. I figured this would be easier and cheaper. It turned out to not even knock down 5500W so I removed the coil and made a shotgun anyway.

[OtisT]

That coil is a beast SMF. Holy cow. Otis

Yeah I was trying to not have to make a shotgun condenser so I wound that big ol bastard. I figured this would be easier and cheaper. It turned out to not even knock down 5500W so I removed the coil and made a shotgun anyway.

That does not knock down 5500w? Again, holy cow! You must have a low flow or warm source water or something.

I have 10” tall single coils of 1/4” OD that knock down 5500w (barely) in a column (right). Of course, I can’t see a reason to run a 2” at 5500w, but I tested it and it did the trick. The coil on the left is a bit shorter, less winds, and goes in a dimroth PC I used to use for stripping at 5500w.

Otis

[Yummyrum]

That's a beast of a coil SMT
Perhaps there becomes a trade off where the longer the coil , the more restriction to flow becomes counter productive . Would be interesting to have removed the inner coil and compare .


Regarding Salt . There is fine stuff and coarse stuff .... not talking rock salt , just cause cooking salt . What is better ?
I'd imagine the coarser stuff would be easier to fill and perhaps not clump as much .
Never used it , but thinking about it for next time.

[bunny]

That's a beast of a coil SMT
Perhaps there becomes a trade off where the longer the coil , the more restriction to flow becomes counter productive . Would be interesting to have removed the inner coil and compare .


Regarding Salt . There is fine stuff and coarse stuff .... not talking rock salt , just cause cooking salt . What is better ?
I'd imagine the coarser stuff would be easier to fill and perhaps not clump as much .
Never used it , but thinking about it for next time.

Don't forget the REALLY FINE stuff: popcorn salt

[Sailman]

I read a few posts about how to wind single and double coils and I think I'm gonna use the way that Hook outlines in his PDF file. In the pictures you'll see 2 different sizes of pipe one copper and 1PVC the copper is going to be used for the internal mandrel and the PVC for the outer mandrel. This is as close as I can find as far as sizes to what Hook recommends using. Will this work? .

Sailman, do you happen to have a link to the Hook thread? I’m going to take another crack at a coil and I’m having a hard time finding tube diameters for a 2” column. I’ve attempted to wind a couple coils. The first was a practice and I filled with water but I could never get the ends crimped tight enough. The other I filled with salt and was able to get a “coil” it was just hideous and too big for my column. I suggest salt. The only compression I got was at the top where the funnel was but I believe that had more to do with me and less you do with the salt. Make sure you pack it tight all the way up.

Edit:I never did put the sledge hammer to the pipe. I’m sure if you beat on it you’ll get a mighty fine crimp.

OK here's a link to Hooks post. In this post he talks about how a longer coil will not work as well as a shorter one due to the increased back pressure the longer 1 has. There is a PDF that you can download that describes and shows pictures of how to do this. I suggest that you read the post because there has been an issue with someone hacking some of the links.
In the post they also talk about how it has been hosted on this forum and the PDF download is safe.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=14559#p6827432

[Sailman]

So I think I'm definitely going to use popcorn salt in the copper when I make this coil. I think I'm gonna have to straighten out the copper line to be able to get it to fill up with salt the salt and then I'll use my vibrating sander to get it to pack tightly. The thing is when I straighten the copper it's going to work harden it to some degree. Will it be safe to use the torch to aneel the copper so it will bend easily Or will this just cause a solid plug?
The torch would only be used if and when I had too.

[ThomasBrewer]

Regarding Salt . There is fine stuff and coarse stuff .... not talking rock salt , just cause cooking salt . What is better ?
I'd imagine the coarser stuff would be easier to fill and perhaps not clump as much .
Never used it , but thinking about it for next time.

Yummy - The finer the salt, the better. You want the tube to have as little air (compressible) as possible in order to support the bend(s).

My experience matches SMF's, connected to house water supply, the salt eventually clears no matter the length. It's just a function of time.

[Salt Must Flow]

So I think I'm definitely going to use popcorn salt in the copper when I make this coil. I think I'm gonna have to straighten out the copper line to be able to get it to fill up with salt the salt and then I'll use my vibrating sander to get it to pack tightly. The thing is when I straighten the copper it's going to work harden it to some degree. Will it be safe to use the torch to aneel the copper so it will bend easily Or will this just cause a solid plug?
The torch would only be used if and when I had too.

Table salt works perfectly fine and no mechanical vibration needed. I personally wouldn't use powdered salt, but I've never tried it before. Since table salt is proven to work, there's no need to blaze a new trail unless you don't mind the risk of failure.

Sure you can anneal the copper tubing prior to filling with salt.

[shadylane]

That's a beast of a coil SMT
Perhaps there becomes a trade off where the longer the coil , the more restriction to flow becomes counter productive . Would be interesting to have removed the inner coil and compare .

That's what I was thinking also.

I don't have much experience with CCVM coils, most of my experience is with dimroth deflegs and product condensers. It's counter intuitive, but what I found was it's possible to wind the coils with too little spacing between the turns. I'm guessing after a certain point, having a slow vapor speed is more important than having the extra surface area. I also found that stuffing copper mesh between the turns of the coils decreased the effectiveness of the condensers.

[drmiller100]

1/4 inch of is so easy to work with and 2 inch is so big.

I wouldn't use anything on the inside. Just wrap it around a pipe and be done.

[kimbodious]

The RC coil in a CCVM has to be able to be moved up and down. The fit has to be just right. Too tight makes it too hard to move up and down. Too loose and the coil won’t stay in place and you loose efficiency because the cold area of the condenser chamber has gaps. Winding a few scrubbies in and around the bottom few coils on the CCVM RC that is too loose a fit helps it stay in place and increases efficiency. A number of users here have successfully sorted issues with their CCVM RC by including some scrubbers, SS is fine for this purpose.

[Stonecutter]

So I think I'm definitely going to use popcorn salt in the copper when I make this coil. I think I'm gonna have to straighten out the copper line to be able to get it to fill up with salt the salt and then I'll use my vibrating sander to get it to pack tightly. The thing is when I straighten the copper it's going to work harden it to some degree. Will it be safe to use the torch to aneel the copper so it will bend easily Or will this just cause a solid plug?
The torch would only be used if and when I had too.

In my two failed attempts I noticed the copper stays pretty soft up to the last 4-5 turns. Then it starts to harden up real quick. Forearms we’re burning. Best advice I can give is take your time. I tend to get all excited and just start going like mad to get it done. That’s when everything starts to go to hell.

[30xs]

I use a reloading funnel to get the salt into my tubing before bending. It works perfectly.

[ThomasBrewer]

I use a reloading funnel to get the salt into my tubing before bending. It works perfectly.

I bet that would work fantastic. I just rolled a cone from a sheet of scratch paper and used a little scotch tape.

So I think I'm definitely going to use popcorn salt in the copper when I make this coil. I think I'm gonna have to straighten out the copper line to be able to get it to fill up with salt the salt and then I'll use my vibrating sander to get it to pack tightly. The thing is when I straighten the copper it's going to work harden it to some degree. Will it be safe to use the torch to aneel the copper so it will bend easily Or will this just cause a solid plug?
The torch would only be used if and when I had too.

In my two failed attempts I noticed the copper stays pretty soft up to the last 4-5 turns. Then it starts to harden up real quick. Forearms we’re burning. Best advice I can give is take your time. I tend to get all excited and just start going like mad to get it done. That’s when everything starts to go to hell.

Re annealed the tubing after you've straightened the coil, but before you fill it with salt. The biggest problem is finding a space that allows you to uncoil a straight 20+ ft!