21 year scotch wiskey project / aging / cuts / oak / etc

[Mcg000]

This a question I've had for a while but have been unable to find straight answers (maybe because the scotch industry is secretive of their process, or because home distilling is just starting to learn about all of this)

Basically after extensive research the way I understand it is the "heads" contain most of the esters and you want some of these compounds in your new make to then esterfy in both distillation and in the "barrel". Too much of it can cause a solventy/rubbing alcohol burn and smell (I get a lot of that in burbon which I hate) but the right amount can cause fruity esters through esterfication and transesterfication like Bruichladdich. The basic understanding is if you're aging for short periods of time then have less heads in your new make and you can possibly get away with more heads if you use a barel due to "slow distillation" from the barrel loosing heads. Also longer aging can cause mellowing of heads.

Second is tails. I understand that some tails are essential in providing acids for esterficstion and providing oils to provide a good mouthful and flavor profile. I understand that in Islsy you want to dive deeper in the tails then say a light corn wiskey. I've "made" new make that has been down right undrinkibly tailsy thinking it would never recover and after a year of sitting in glass on a tiny amount of 2nd use 2nd toasted oak not only have the tails completely disappeared but they also have transformed into "chocolate and silky" mouthful and none of the funk has remained.

The question is this what flavor both heads and tails and ABV are you "cutting" at to long age your wiskey I'm "making" a 21 year old lightly peated scotch for a friend who is expecting his firstborn in a few months and the plan for a shower gift was to age in glass on a small amount of 2nd use 2nd toasted oak with a very wide cut leaning towards the tails. The reasoning is since it is in glass less of the heads will evaporate vs a barel and I don't want it to be to solventy in 21 years. And I want enough tails in the new make to be almost un-drinkably tailsy so that the tails can transform into wonderful flavors in the future.

People in home distilling place too much emphasis on the new make character with cuts and try to make it "drinkable" off the still with no emphasis on what happens to all the components with aging. Do tails disapate more than heads and vice versa? Please let me know your aging experience the amount of time and what happens to each component with timw on oak both barel and glass?

[HDNB]

someone will say this better than me, but your assumptions in the first part are validated by much discussion here. the last statement of stereotyping "home distillers" into one tidy package could not be further from reality.
IMHO, most here have found a way to a product they like... and cutting good whisky off the still leads to good aged whiskey. then the variables come in and are classed as experiments.

if there is a formula for how much heads and tails vs. how much time goes in a great whisky, i don't think anyone has published it yet. it's really a case of building what you like, because it's your whisky and no one else really matters...therefore hard to qualify and quantify a formula.

i doubt you'll find a consensus of what is the "right" way, every answer will be as different as the whisky that each distiller makes.

[acfixer69]

I was a bit put off by that line also HDNB and started a respond, and thankfully you responded. You hit all the points on variables I was thinking of.

[NZChris]

I thought 'heads' and 'tails' were names for the leftover product that didn't go into your heart cut? They contain the same congeners as the hearts, it's just the ratios to ethanol that changes during the run. Look up graphs of the various components during a distillation and take note of the curves.

You can choose more than one cut from a run, I've done three. I suggest you do more than one cut, age them separately, then if one of them is ok in 21 years, proof it and gift it. (Personally, if it turned out really nice after twenty one years, I'd drink it myself buy him a bottle off the shelf. )

[jonnys_spirit]

Depending on how much I’m making I’ll do a white hearts cut and a barrel cut plus a feints (to recycle) cut, and a fores/ant-killer cut. The spirit run gets fractioned out to 20-25 jars so easy enough to divy it all up for different uses.

I agree though and have found that the wider barrel cut is pretty rough early but magically turns into quality with time and oak. Too wide is still too wide and aging a year + makes it hard for me to quantify experiments so enjoy the ongoing learning

Cheers!
-j

[Mcg000]

The last statement of stereotyping "home distillers" into one tidy package could not be further from reality.
IMHO, most here have found a way to a product they like... and cutting good whisky off the still leads to good aged whiskey. then the variables come in and are classed as experiments.

I'm sorry I by no means was trying to sub set home distillers into one package. I simply meant there is little quality discussion on subjective subsets of distillate and what happens with age. I've seen plenty of "don't go below 50%" it's too tailsy but very little on what happens to subjective smell/tasting notes with intermediate/long aging. I'd love to hear more seasoned experience noses on what they notice with age is all.

And by heads and tails I don't mean what didn't make the "cut" I understand that "heats" is technically the only thing you keep what I'm referring to is the subjective proportion headsy and tailsy proportions that make the heart cut and how they age/mellow/transform into other flavors

[Mcg000]

You can choose more than one cut from a run, I've done three. I suggest you do more than one cut, age them separately, then if one of them is ok in 21 years, proof it and gift it. (Personally, if it turned out really nice after twenty one years, I'd drink it myself buy him a bottle off the shelf. )

That's a great idea! I feel that's very similar how large scale commercial distillers do it (one vinnila bomb barrel, one tanic, one chocolate, etc and blend). Unfortunately it's harder to do on a small scale lol .

[Mcg000]

I agree though and have found that the wider barrel cut is pretty rough early but magically turns into quality with time and oak. Too wide is still too wide and aging a year + makes it hard for me to quantify experiments so enjoy the ongoing learning

Cheers!
-j

That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for! I have never done a 21 year experiment. I know how wide of a cut to make for a year old wiskey, but have no idea how wide of a cut to make for a long age wiskey. Is there diminishing return? When is too wide to wide? Is width of cut determined on years of aging or is there a certain width of cut that will never age out no matter the age?

I've noticed one thing about tasting 18+ year old scotch wiskey is that they end up tasting a lot flatter less deep/complex character than a younger (less than 10 year old) so I'm concerned about cutting too short and in 21 years tasting like a "light" wiskey. At the same time worried about cutting too large and never aging out unwanted flavors...

[shadylane]

"A 21 year old scotch wiskey project"

Hells of fire, that's past my expiration date.
I'll just keep making whiskey that can be consumed young and white.

[The Baker]

"A 21 year old scotch wiskey project"

Hells of fire, that's past my expiration date.
I'll just keep making whiskey that can be consumed young and white.

I hesitate over green bananas now.
But in 21 years I will (WILL) be 102.

Geoff

[Mcg000]

"A 21 year old scotch wiskey project"

Hells of fire, that's past my expiration date.
I'll just keep making whiskey that can be consumed young and white.

Haha lol! Luckily I'll still be young enough to enjoy... My buddy (basically brother) had a great idea of making it before his first borns birth so his son can enjoy this wiskey when he turns 21! Too bad I have to wait that long to try it......

[The Baker]

"A 21 year old scotch wiskey project"

Hells of fire, that's past my expiration date.
I'll just keep making whiskey that can be consumed young and white.

Haha lol normally me too! But my buddy (basically brother) had a great idea of making it before his first borns birth so his son can enjoy this whiskey when he turns 21! Too bad I have to wait that long to try it......

You could offer to do Quality Control and taste it every year (when he tops it up a bit, to keep a reasonable amount in the barrel after evaporation).

Geoff

[shadylane]

"A 21 year old scotch wiskey project"

Hells of fire, that's past my expiration date.
I'll just keep making whiskey that can be consumed young and white.

I hesitate over green bananas now.
But in 21 years I will (WILL) be 102.

Geoff

Be careful, I've heard 102 is a dangerous time for men.
The likely hood of getting killed by a jealous husband increases about that time.

[Mcg000]

(Personally, if it turned out really nice after twenty one years, I'd drink it myself buy him a bottle off the shelf. )

Hahahaha! Luckily we're going in on the ingredients together and the goal is to make 15 gallons and split the cost and final product

[jonnys_spirit]

I was going to recommend making a nice sized barrel. To make it a single malt scotch whisky you’ll need to get the barrel used for bourbon or make bourbon first. Estimate 5 - 7 50’ish gallon mashes or so. Sounds like an awesome plan!

Cheers,
-j

[NZChris]

That's a great idea! I feel that's very similar how large scale commercial distillers do it (one vinnila bomb barrel, one tanic, one chocolate, etc and blend). Unfortunately it's harder to do on a small scale lol .

I do it, but not as you described, and mostly with rum.

I don't believe whiskey distillers do what you described, as it doesn't make sense, e.g., tannin appears, then mellows, in the barrel, without the distiller having to do anything. What you describe would be better for a newbie desperate to make something half decent in a hurry, (and still failing )
Whiskey, I make different cuts for different aging protocols. I usually keep them separate, but I have moved wood into other whiskeys when emptying a demijohn.

[Mcg000]

I was going to recommend making a nice sized barrel. To make it a single malt scotch whisky you’ll need to get the barrel used for bourbon or make bourbon first. Estimate 5 - 7 50’ish gallon mashes or so. Sounds like an awesome plan!

Cheers,
-j

Thanks for the info! I was planning on using a old 15 gallon beer keg filled with a big stave from an old Buffalo trace burbon barrel that was filled in 2015 and has been air drying in the elements for the last 2 years to reduce tannins. Then I was going to toast it at 350 for 1 hour with a level 1 char. Hence why I don't want a heart cut with a higher percentage of heads due to the lack of evaporation from a natural oak barrel. Also there will be a lack of micro oxidation so I don't want it too tailsy going into the keg. The plan is to open it up for a few hours every month and agitate it to introduce "micro-oxidation" obviously not the same but it's what I got lol

[Mcg000]

I do it, but not as you described, and mostly with rum.

I don't believe whiskey distillers do what you described, as it doesn't make sense, e.g., tannin appears, then mellows, in the barrel, without the distiller having to do anything. What you describe would be better for a newbie desperate to make something half decent in a hurry

No I understand what you're saying! Wiskey distillers don't intentionally create different barrels (besides different mash bills) necessarily. They just do a good job of keeping track of how they all their barrels develop so they can use them like pepper, garlic, salt, butter etc in a blend to make the perfect recipe!

[Mcg000]

The question still remains what subjective experience do you notice with aging both "heads" and "tails" section of the cuts? Pre and post aging?

In my experience "heads" solventy taste turns into other esters that are more fruity with age and oak (but in my experience heads ages/mellows much less than tails) and some level of solvent stays in the final product if you keep it in the "hearts" cut in a higher proportion (in glass) unless you use oak barrels it tends to evaporate, but as the solvent taste evaporates often also it also evaporates the fruity esters as well...

Also "tails" in my experience with age turn into deep dark fruit/chocolate/grain goodness vs filtered multiple distilled burbon/Tennessee "light" wiskey. Even though fresh off the still it taste like old socks/wet dog/sour funk...

[tombombadil]

I have a glass jar of fire starter (feints from a refluxed feints run) sitting in the garage that's starting to smell pretty damn fruity. I keep thinking I should taste it and maybe use it for blending if it's not too hot and solventy.

No oak in it, just been in the garage for like a year. The ambient temp is over 120f for weeks at a time here so I'm guessing the garage is a little hotter than that. Maybe the heat sped up the esterification reactions?

[Mcg000]

I keep thinking I should taste it and maybe use it for blending if it's not too hot and solventy.

No oak in it, just been in the garage for like a year. The ambient temp is over 120f for weeks at a time here so I'm guessing the garage is a little hotter than that. Maybe the heat sped up the esterification reactions?

Hey thats interesting!! For me I feel like young corn burbon taste like heavy heads/solvent/ high on the acetone smell/taste but as it gets older it smells like cherry.. not like grenadine but like 40% nail polish and 60% cherry. Scotch on the other hand goes from green apple/solvent like a young Irish wiskey to fruity/mixed fruit/fruit cup over age. Anyone else get this? Here is an amazing link to Jessee from Still It talking with a cooper that hints at this reaction at 1 hour 27 minutes 10 seconds:



I've always felt like corn base goes solventy/acetoney (especially new barrel) early on than esterfies into more complex aromas but still is a 40% heads taste with 60% fake cherry/dark fruit taste while barley is much more mellow and nuanced in the Citrus/apple realm.

Thoughts on both these aging?

[NZChris]

The question still remains what subjective experience do you notice with aging both "heads" and "tails" section of the cuts? Pre and post aging?

I've put heads and tails into the same vessel with toasted, charred oak staves for years until the collection was enough for an all feints run. The wet dog was just about gone and it was almost nice, but that's only about three years worth of saved feints, not 21 years of aged whiskey.

Not many home distillers have experience with that length of aging, or would have whatever it takes to be able to describe the flavor intensities at the points at which they cut in a manner that you, or I, could understand.

You might be better to visit a commercial distillery that does produce twenty year old whiskey and ask for a taste of their new make. That would give you a much better idea of what to aim for than any amount of words exchanged on the web.

[shadylane]

People in home distilling place too much emphasis on the new make character with cuts and try to make it "drinkable" off the still with no emphasis on what happens to all the components with aging.

Let's back up a moment and think about what makes a good whiskey.
Are you saying 21 years of aging is more important than cuts and blending?

My theory is, if it starts out good, it gets better with age.
If it tastes bad young because of wide cuts, it might take years to be drinkable.

[Sporacle]

Let's back up a moment and think about what makes a good whiskey.
Are you saying 21 years of aging is more important than cuts and blending?

+1 Shady, it's that economic decision of how much we take from a run vs how long the barrel takes to sort it out vs the return in dollars per bottle.

[shadylane]

I figure the more commercial distillers brag about years of barrel aging.
The less they worried about ingredients, cuts and greed.

[NormandieStill]

I figure the more commercial distillers brag about years of barrel aging.
The less they worried about ingredients, cuts and greed.

I suspect that there's a bit of both. The extra complexity is going to come from having more stuff in the mix in the first place. An extreme example would be oak aging a lab-grade ethanol sample. Any complexity is going to come purely from the wood. The more you have other compounds in there, the greater the potential for interesting stuff to emerge.

To the OP: take care comparing whiskey by age if you aren't certain that it's from the same new make. From one distillery to another the grain bill and cuts will be different, but potentially even within a single distillery, products will vary dramatically. If you really want to be sure, scale up your production to allow for different cuts to be made and aim for at least 3 separate blends. Tight hearts, heads-heavy and tails-heavy. That way if any one turns out to be fantastic as is then you've got enough product for your aim. You also then have blending options without compromising your age statement.

Having tasted some young scotch and some older scotch I can attest that the complexity does not come purely with age, nor does it necessarily fade with age. And since the bottles are blends from multiple casks which are chosen to target a given flavour profile it's really hard to think that age alone will be a deciding factor.

[still_stirrin]

The question still remains what subjective experience do you notice with aging both "heads" and "tails" section of the cuts? Pre and post aging?

I don’t like “heads” in my liquor. And this is why I don’t particularly care for “scotch-style” whiskey at all. The solventy esters give me a headache and I don’t want that from my own. It simply doesn’t have to be like that.

The scottish distillers are taxed based upon what goes into the mash, not what you get out of it. Hence, they don’t cut conservatively at all. Their intent is profit, so they will run it all into the cask to mature. That’s why they age for so long … to minimize all the “funk” they run into the barrel. And as a result of the long periods in the cask, the evaporation will reduce the stock and concentrate the flavors, bringing out the wood and taming the heads. It therefore allows the bottle prices to be higher (to recover costs).

But, we hobby distillers don’t have to do that. We can make good, conservative cuts, leaving the “crap” out of our drinking liquor bottles. I suppose that a light touch of tails will add some cereal grain complexity, but you’ve got to be very careful if you choose to add some.

And most often, the backend of rum ferments, especially heavy molasses-based rums can be extremely nasty. So, you need to pay attention to how you cut it (rum).

In my experience "heads" solventy taste turns into other esters that are more fruity with age and oak (but in my experience heads ages/mellows much less than tails) and some level of solvent stays in the final product if you keep it in the "hearts" cut in a higher proportion (in glass) unless you use oak barrels it tends to evaporate, but as the solvent taste evaporates often also it also evaporates the fruity esters as well...

Why bother? Leaving the “crap” in your cask (or glass with chunks) won’t turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse. Start with a good product (white) and age it with the right wood treatment. Age will help about any whiskey, but if you start with a good product, it’ll get better.

Also "tails" in my experience with age turn into deep dark fruit/chocolate/grain goodness vs filtered multiple distilled burbon/Tennessee "light" wiskey. Even though fresh off the still it taste like old socks/wet dog/sour funk...

Well, all this discussion (questions and more) seem to overshadow your experience. With experience, you’ll KNOW how you make your whiskey, ie - recipe, distillation, cuts, and aging processes. Experience will teach you how to make what YOU (and others) will like. This is the art form of this hobby, that is, we get to make what we like. We don’t have to pay for what someone else thinks is “art”, we can create our own masterpieces.

In conclusion, there have been many “golden” answers to your questions here. If you read and understand the voices of experience, you will realize that too. If you’re “phishing” for different answers, then you aren’t really understanding what has already been shared. So, go back and reread through the thread. Hopefully, you will find the answers you’re looking for.
ss

[Ben]

I agree with SS, make good whiskey, put it in a barrel give it time. Heads still taste like heads, no matter the age. We aren't constrained by taxation, regulations or rules... take advantage of it. I think if you just practice the hobby for the next 19 years, and put something in a once used 5 gallon barrel for the last 2 years you will get something more impressive out of it. A narrow cut doesn't have to make a boring whiskey, focus on the brew technique, nail the ferment, find the right yeast, adjust the base and specialty malts, pay attention to the cuts, try different blends from the same batch... learn and grow, master the craft. An age statement doesn't make a whiskey great.

"Most" of the ancient releases from these big distilleries are barrels that never fit within the profile, they never had the flavor the distiller wanted for their bulk release blends. There is something different, special or off about them (compared to their normal product). They get to that age because they simply don't fit. Or it's a barrel that got lost and forgotten, so they bottle, stick an age statement on it and jack the price up.

Some of the non age statement stuff coming out of Scotland is mind blowing, because the distiller has the ability to blend whatever they want to, and can make make something complex and alive.

I think if you were doing this on a home scale you would need to age in something like a Badmo that has limited oxygen transfer and surface contact, and age a bunch of different baby barrels, somewhere cool. Select stuff and drain it as it peaks, whatever makes it to 21 without peaking is going to be close to gone from evaporation and may as well be bottled. There are factors we cannot easily emulate that come into play in these very old Whiskeys, Baudoinia compniacensis, Rickhouse ventilation effects, thermal mass from bulk storage etc, so even if you can get a home scale whiskey barrel to age for 21 years I don't believe it's going to be like a commercial example.

[Mcg000]

Well, all this discussion (questions and more) seem to overshadow your experience.

In conclusion, there have been many “golden” answers to your questions here. If you read and understand the voices of experience, you will realize that too. If you’re “phishing” for different answers, then you aren’t really understanding what has already been shared. So, go back and reread through the thread. Hopefully, you will find the answers you’re looking for.
ss

I totally agree! I only have 2 years experience and this project totally overshadow my experience so thanks for your insight! There have been some amazing insight and good techniques in this thread and I appreciate everyone's insight it's been super helpful!

[Mcg000]

If you really want to be sure, scale up your production to allow for different cuts to be made and aim for at least 3 separate blends. Tight hearts, heads-heavy and tails-heavy. That way if any one turns out to be fantastic as is then you've got enough product for your aim. You also then have blending options without compromising your age statement.

That's an amazing idea! Thanks for your insight!