Running a CM - need some pointers

[EricTheRed]

Pending the build of my CCVM - when i can finally get the parts i need - i am currently using the following 2 bits of kit combined to make a RC (don't laugh - it works)

image.png

Installed they look like below

image.png

The whole setup (The middle thermo has been removed since this photo)

image.png

(Small aside - the copper one, stuffed with copper mesh is able to knock down almost 2KW with the occasional drip getting through - but it needs a lot more water. Added the 200mm x 2" Dephlegmater - now knocks down 100% of 3KW and uses much less water. Was not sure the depleg on its own would knock it all down)

The pot is a 30L - with 1.8 meter of column (mix of 3" and 2"), 1.2m packed tightly with copper mesh - 3 KW 240V element with power controller
I'm at 1500m altitude

What i do (please critique)
- Start the boiler - 100% power
- when boiler head temp reaches 80°C - turn on water to PC --> RC Copper --> RC SS
- shortly thereafter (10 - 15 minutes), thermo below the RCs will jump to 77°C
- the head temp stays firmly at 22°C
- hold it there for about 10 - 15 minutes (not a single whiff of a drop to the output tube as the head temp does not climb)
- cut power to 60% (1800W)
- slow down water to a trickle (slowly) while watching thermo after RCs
- slowly the head temp climbs to 73.5°C and fores start coming out - one drop every 2 seconds
- adjust water down a bit more until drips are running in a fast drip but not a stream.

Observations ( i measure each jar for temp and ABV)
- head thermo stays constant a 73.5°C
- product output stays around the 20°C mark
- Water AFTER the RC's is almost too hot to hold your hand under
- product stays at 93/94 for entire run
- when top thermo climbs to 74 i stop - that's tails iirc
- takes a whole day to run this

Questions for my next reflux run
1. Should i leave the power at max and only adjust the water flow?
2. or should i set the water flow and only adjust the power?
3. Should i have 2 x water sources? one for RCs and one for PC? (inclined to do so)
4. Water source currently adjusted with a 1/2" ball valve - but touchy
5. would running higher power enable me to increase the output rate whilst maintaining ABV?

I ask about the higher rate being possible as i run completely on solar power - so have a finite timeframe in which i can run the still.

Any pointers, suggestions, critique welcome

(and before anyone asks, yes i used the search button - a lot)

[howie]

Pending the build of my CCVM - when i can finally get the parts i need - i am currently using the following 2 bits of kit combined to make a RC (don't laugh - it works)
image.png
Installed they look like below
image.png
The whole setup (The middle thermo has been removed since this photo)
image.png

(Small aside - the copper one, stuffed with copper mesh is able to knock down almost 2KW with the occasional drip getting through - but it needs a lot more water. Added the 200mm x 2" Dephlegmater - now knocks down 100% of 3KW and uses much less water. Was not sure the depleg on its own would knock it all down)

The pot is a 30L - with 1.8 meter of column (mix of 3" and 2"), 1.2m packed tightly with copper mesh - 3 KW 240V element with power controller
I'm at 1500m altitude

What i do (please critique)
- Start the boiler - 100% power
- when boiler head temp reaches 80°C - turn on water to PC --> RC Copper --> RC SS
- shortly thereafter (10 - 15 minutes), thermo below the RCs will jump to 77°C
- the head temp stays firmly at 22°C this is good as it means no vapour is getting past the RC
- hold it there for about 10 - 15 minutes (not a single whiff of a drop to the output tube as the head temp does not climb)
- cut power to 60% (1800W)
imho when the temp below the RC reaches 77C, this is when the power should be turned down to 60%, not after 10-15 minutes.
you want a nice rolling boil to help create EQ/stratification, not a raging boil.
also the full reflux should be held for approx 40 mins (in my case) until EQ is reached.
on my rig this is indicated by a 2-3C drop in the temp (say 77C to 74/75c in your example)
- slow down water to a trickle (slowly) while watching thermo after RCs
- slowly the head temp climbs to 73.5°C and fores start coming out - one drop every 2 seconds
- adjust water down a bit more until drips are running in a fast drip but not a stream.

Observations ( i measure each jar for temp and ABV)
- head thermo stays constant a 73.5°C
- product output stays around the 20°C mark
- Water AFTER the RC's is almost too hot to hold your hand under
- product stays at 93/94 for entire run
- when top thermo climbs to 74 i stop - that's tails iirc
- takes a whole day to run this

Questions for my next reflux run
1. Should i leave the power at max and only adjust the water flow?
2. or should i set the water flow and only adjust the power?
3. Should i have 2 x water sources? one for RCs and one for PC? (inclined to do so)
4. Water source currently adjusted with a 1/2" ball valve - but touchy
5. would running higher power enable me to increase the output rate whilst maintaining ABV?

I ask about the higher rate being possible as i run completely on solar power - so have a finite timeframe in which i can run the still.

Any pointers, suggestions, critique welcome
i would also insulate the column from boiler to RC, i have seen a blast of cold wind affect the output
(and before anyone asks, yes i used the search button - a lot)

[EricTheRed]

- hold it there for about 10 - 15 minutes (not a single whiff of a drop to the output tube as the head temp does not climb)
- cut power to 60% (1800W)
imho when the temp below the RC reaches 77C, this is when the power should be turned down to 60%, not after 10-15 minutes.
you want a nice rolling boil to help create EQ/stratification, not a raging boil.
also the full reflux should be held for approx 40 mins (in my case) until EQ is reached.
on my rig this is indicated by a 2-3C drop in the temp (say 77C to 74/75c in your example)

so skip the step in Red above

Questions for my next reflux run
1. Should i leave the power at max and only adjust the water flow?
2. or should i set the water flow and only adjust the power?
3. Should i have 2 x water sources? one for RCs and one for PC? (inclined to do so)
4. Water source currently adjusted with a 1/2" ball valve - but touchy
5. would running higher power enable me to increase the output rate whilst maintaining ABV?

I ask about the higher rate being possible as i run completely on solar power - so have a finite timeframe in which i can run the still.

Any pointers, suggestions, critique welcome
i would also insulate the column from boiler to RC, i have seen a blast of cold wind affect the output
Been thinking about that - wrapped a blanket for one run - didn't seem to make much difference. I keep the draft possibilities to a minimum,

Thanks - still wondering about a few other things though.

BTW - how do you determine what power to run at ?

[howie]

the power required to keep a good rolling boil varies with the amount of the charge, so you have to do some trial and error.
obv you need to keep the temp up, but you don't want a raging boil either as you slowly build the layers/EQ/stabilize the column.
EQ takes some time, but i find (and theorise) that the small temp drop is an indication of the column going into EQ.
this is when i adjust the water slowly, to let the initial fores through, which are concentrated at the top of the column.(hence the observed temp drop)
this method seems to concentrate fores/heads and provides very clean and high abv hearts.

i would also get the column insulated properly, as a cold gust not only affects output, but can probably collapse a column in EQ and ruin 40 mins of waiting.

[EricTheRed]

As to power - i used a post from Kiwistiller (I think) where they were running at 1800W on a 2" - so i made that my setting.
30 Litre charge @ 40%

i looked back at my notes, and the fores started at 68°C and finished off at 73°C - then i moved to 73.5 and stayed there.
need to get me some digital thermo's - i've got those dial type - and they are not all that sensitive

[Hoosier Shine9]

Questions for my next reflux run
1. Should i leave the power at max and only adjust the water flow?
2. or should i set the water flow and only adjust the power?
3. Should i have 2 x water sources? one for RCs and one for PC? (inclined to do so)
4. Water source currently adjusted with a 1/2" ball valve - but touchy
5. would running higher power enable me to increase the output rate whilst maintaining ABV?

I ask about the higher rate being possible as i run completely on solar power - so have a finite timeframe in which i can run the still.

Any pointers, suggestions, critique welcome

(and before anyone asks, yes i used the search button - a lot)


Eric, as far as #4......

I added a small needle valve as a bypass to the "touchy ball valve"
this allows me to use larger valve to get full reflux. Then to close the larger valve & just use the needle valve.
Once I got the needle valve to where i wanted it I NEVER change it.

hope this helps.
hs9

[EricTheRed]

I added a small needle valve as a bypass to the "touchy ball valve"
this allows me to use larger valve to get full reflux. Then to close the larger valve & just use the needle valve.
Once I got the needle valve to where i wanted it I NEVER change it.

Do you then adjust the power to keep reflux / head temp where you want it?

[Hoosier Shine9]

Yes.
I turn down power to keep product flow where I want it.

I am using a 4 inch, 6 plate Flute.
I use a 4500w 220v element with a voltage regulator.
for initial heat & reflux i run it at 15/16 amps.
then will turn down to 12-14 amps to control the flow rate.
I will have a flow rate of about 1 gallon per hour. or a quart every 14 to 18 minutes.

[Chauncey]

I think the one shotgun Deflegmator should knock down everything.

[Chauncey]

Also, when I ran CM columns I always put in about the amount of power that would get me a steady unbroken stream in a pot and adjusted the cooling water down from full reflux until it started dripping fores and heads, then down a lil more to get a pencil lead thru the hearts. If i lowered the cooling water more thats because there was that gurgling water pipe sound of flooding. Don't know if that helps, I only used cm to do one and done whiskeynand Brandy runs. Definitely wouldn't run like that for neutral.

[Salt Must Flow]

I added a small needle valve as a bypass to the "touchy ball valve"
this allows me to use larger valve to get full reflux. Then to close the larger valve & just use the needle valve.
Once I got the needle valve to where i wanted it I NEVER change it.

Do you then adjust the power to keep reflux / head temp where you want it?

In the past I used to stabilize my column at a lower power setting, remove foreshots really slow, continue removing heads really slow, bump up the power & restabilize, remove the rest of the heads a little faster, bump power up (2700W) & restabilize, remove hearts and continue like this until the run is done. Sometimes I would restabilize prior to the onset of tails too. Too much fiddling around if you ask me.

Since then I've SUPER simplified how I do a spirit run with my 3" VM. Now I heatup at 100%. Once vapor starts to rise I reduce power to 50% (2750W), stabilize for 10-15 min, start taking foreshots really slow, take heads really slow for a while, start taking heads a little faster and once I think I'm reaching hearts I start taking off at 3.2 LPH until I hit tails.

If I were using your rig I would find out what max power your dephlegmator can knock down. Once you know that you know how much power you 'can' stabilize at. Around 2750W should be fine with a 3". Start taking off foreshots, slow heads, faster heads, fast hearts, hit tails and the run is over. Just control water to your dephlegmator to control your takeoff rate. If you have a 3" column, 1800W sounds like a low power setting to me. I run my 3" column at 2750W and it can likely run higher than that.

Your column looks relatively short from the pic. Can't tell for sure. Once you upgrade your parts you'll absolutely LOVE how VM or CCVM runs itself like it's on autopilot. They just run super steady. I feed water to all of my condensers individually and control each of them with a needle valve.

[Hoosier Shine9]

I have a total of 3 valves.
a ball & needle valve on deflag. as seen in Picture
then a ball on the Product condenser. Thinking about replacing this one with a needle valve.
a lot less water needed for the product condenser.

[shadylane]

@ EricTheRed

If it was me.

1. Remove one of the deflegs and make the column that much taller.
2. Plumb the defleg and product condenser separately with needle valves.
3. Insulate the boiler and column.

With a mixture of 2" and 3" the power is limited to what the 2" can handle. Because of this, around 1800 is the max possible without flooding the 2" section of the column. I'd run @ 1800w and adjust the defleg water.

Since you're running on solar, I'd skip the 100% reflux to stack the column. Instead, I'd run the column @ 99% reflux and let the foreshots slowly drip out. Doing it this way will save on energy and time.

[drmiller100]

When starting I would let it full reflux for 20 minutes or so. Temperature should be slightly lower than etoh would normally be.
Then I would pull 3 tablespoons as fast as I could by limiting reflux coolant. This will concentrate the fores. Then full reflux for 5 minutes to stabilize the column.
Pull some product and check for fores.

If you do it drip at a time, depending on design you will bring g a lot of etoh with the fores.

[Salt Must Flow]

When starting I would let it full reflux for 20 minutes or so. Temperature should be slightly lower than etoh would normally be.
Then I would pull 3 tablespoons as fast as I could by limiting reflux coolant. This will concentrate the fores. Then full reflux for 5 minutes to stabilize the column.
Pull some product and check for fores.

If you do it drip at a time, depending on design you will bring g a lot of etoh with the fores.

I follow what you're saying, but hear me out. I've never been that concerned about fores because they come out obviously very first, then the heads which I cut. I'll toss the fores (or keep for solvent), but dump the heads in my feints keg to do an all feints run later down the road. Now when I do an all feints run, whatever fores are there (if any) will come out once again very first, then the heads and you know the rest. Clearly we only keep the hearts and then toss the rest away at that point. This is why I've never been that concerned with doing anything special when collecting fores other than letting them come off really slow. If any can or does bleed into the heads, well they always get cut anyways. This is just how I see it and I try to minimize fiddling around as much as possible if it isn't necessary.

[howie]

my thoughts (or question) on 'fiddling around'
if you have stabilized/EQ the column, drawn off the concentrated fores, why would you need start adjusting power/re-stabilizing etc?
why not just not carry on through the fores & heads without changing things? (apart from after tails have arrived)
'bumping up' the power at any stage during a reflux spirit run would seem like it would mix the layers you have just created.
the theory i read/used was that the a steady rolling boil and RC in full reflux creates a stratification under a slight pressure with the nasty stuff at the top.
after the bleeding the fores through, then the heads come out fairly concentrated, leaving the hearts very clean.
i collect in 250ml samples and i would say by jar 4-6, the heads are finished (sometimes )

i would also add that i strip hard and fast, but through about 3 rolls of copper mesh that removes a lot of sulphides at this early stage.
also taking out the first 200ml of the strip.

[shadylane]

'bumping up' the power at any stage during a reflux spirit run would seem like it would mix the layers you have just created.

I make adjustments during the forshots and heads.
The forshots are drawn out at a drip and the heads at a broken stream.
The hearts are drawn off faster. but once the hearts start, I don't make any changes to power or reflux.
I sit back in my chair and wait for the output to slowly decrease until the tails appear.
Then I drain the pot and rinse everything out.

[howie]

'bumping up' the power at any stage during a reflux spirit run would seem like it would mix the layers you have just created.

I make adjustments during the forshots and heads.
The forshots are drawn out at a drip and the heads at a broken stream.
The hearts are drawn off faster. but once the hearts start, I don't make any changes to power or reflux.
I sit back in my chair and wait for the output to slowly decrease until the tails appear.
Then I drain the pot and rinse everything out.

i'm guessing they would be small incremental adjustments.
i agree with you, in hour(?) after EQ is reached, i pay a lot of attention to bleeding off the top layers of fores and heads very gently.
i mainly reduce the water very slowly, wait after each adjustment, and monitor any change in the thermometer after the RC.
when the thermometer starts to rise, i stop all adjustments and let the fores get slowly pushed past the RC.
it is a bit painstaking, but i reckon it's worth the attention.

[shadylane]

Just my opinion.

Thermometers work good for boiler temp and figuring out how much alcohol is left.
They ain't worth a shit for accurately measuring vapor temp and/or running a CM.
It's best to run based on take off rate, power and experience.

[howie]

Just my opinion.

Thermometers work good for boiler temp and figuring out how much alcohol is left.
They ain't worth a shit for accurately measuring vapor temp and/or running a CM.
It's best to run based on take off rate, power and experience.

and just to be clear
i ain't measuring any vapour temp, just watching for changes

[EricTheRed]

Thanks to all who answered - a lot of good information - will be applied on my next Reflux run

Thanks again