New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

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SOWIWAB
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New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by SOWIWAB »

Hello all,

this one is not a SWIM post. I actually am curious as to your thoughts.

Fresh barrels VS Used wine barrel that has had time to Dry out to over a year or more.

Pros?

Cons?

I know that JD #27 can only use their barrels one time? so they sell them off in bulk and you can get one for like 200-300 some times.
Could their flavor end up in your final product? Same question for the Wine barrels.

Should they be Re Charred? would this remove any and all of the previous contents giving you a clean place to hone your craft to?

This is something that has weighed deeply in my mind as I have never aged Unaged liquor in any from and some people have mixed opinions about it regardless. How often should a barrel be replaced or re charred? is there a number of times you can use it before it is just only good for a planter or a table stand?


Thanks!
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Deplorable »

Whatever was in the barrel will impart some character in the next contents. The best use for old wine and whiskey barrels of the commercial variety is to break them down, scrape them and cut them up into fingers or dominoes to age spirits in glass. For hobby size purposes, get a 5-gallon (half firkin) barrel if you have the ambition to fill a barrel. It's a much more realistic goal. There have been several discussions here abouts of folks who have aspired to fill an ASB, but I've yet to read of anyone being successful. A half firkin is most common, and there are a few who sport a quarter cask, and maybe a rundlet or two.

Each use will remove more of the flavors the wood imparts but cared for well they can be used indefinitely. both of my 5 gallon barrels are on their 2nd fill. (Technically one is on its 3rd, it had bourbon, then wine, now straight corn whiskey) They should last me the rest of my life if i take care of them and keep them filled. Both were acquired once used. My next will be purchased new.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

+1 on what Deplorable explains. Once a barrel is “neutral” you can still get the evaporative and micro oxidation benefits from it and still add fresh charred stave adjuncts as desired. Plus 5g is a convenient size for blending cuts from a series of batches plus long term storage. The Angels take their share over a year or three but you can bottle some into glass gallons and top up to keep the blend going or just empty and refill. Filling a 5g for me takes about 2-3 large batches of about 100# grain each with a bit extta left over for top up. I guess a 50g barrel would take between 20-30 large batches or about 2000-3000#’s of grain…

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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by LWTCS »

On the otherhand using a once or twice used barrel to specifically pull flavors from previous fills is a real, desired thing too.

Enjoying a wheat whiskey finished in an oatmeal stout barrel now.
Rum finished in wine and sherry casks are very desirable.

Fact is that spirit finished in secondary barrels are selling at premium price points.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by NormandieStill »

Scotch whisky is all about the used barrels. I need to speak to my tame wine maker to see if I can get my hands on some bits of used barrel. I'd love to do a bordeaux-aged whisky.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Oldvine Zin »

Most wine barrels are 59 to 60 gallons that would be a lot of stilling to fill one, I prefer the 5 gallon new Gibb's barrels.

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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by NormandieStill »

Not for filling... I'd break it down for the staves.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Deplorable »

NormandieStill wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:28 pm Not for filling... I'd break it down for the staves.
Id think this would provide you a lifetime of wood. If you can get a cheap used barrel that hasn't been made neutral I'd jump on it.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Demy »

I believe that if the wood has acquired aroma for a previous use, it is a mistake scraping the wood and make it new, except in case he smells bad. Even if you only use the cut slats, if you have a good smell I would leave them as they are. For the wine it is the same thing, some of my old barrels produced the best wine, it went that they lose "wood flavor" but acquire other aromas ... it depends a lot on your personal preferences.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by still_stirrin »

I use chunks cut from staves when I age in glass jars. Typically, I rinse the chunks thoroughly before use to rinse as much of the accumulated dust the casks accrue in the aging sheds and from rolling around before emptying. But, other than a good rinse I don’t do much else. So, the chunks behave just like a “once used” barrel adding color and flavor accordingly.

There is a used barrel distributer (https://midwestbarrelco.com/) that sells (BBQ smoking) chunks cut from barrels. The chunks are great for aging in glass, so check them out. You can even buy once used barrels too for those who like a genuine cask in their still shack.
Note-this is not an endorsement or advertisement for this supplier, simply an example of one solution to the hobby distiller. YMMV.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by NormandieStill »

Deplorable wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:21 am
NormandieStill wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:28 pm Not for filling... I'd break it down for the staves.
Id think this would provide you a lifetime of wood. If you can get a cheap used barrel that hasn't been made neutral I'd jump on it.
I've been keeping an eye out for old, but watertight cider barrels with a view to using one for large ferments once I've got a stilling shed to sit it in. I did think that I could take the head out of a wine barrel, which would already provide a vast amount of "flavoured" oak, and then use the barrel itself as a mash tun / fermenter.

I'm a carpenter and several years ago I chopped down an oak tree on my property which has been sat outside since it was felled... so I have a source of virgin oak right outside my door.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

What kind of oak tree? Split/mill and stack some of that up in the yard to start seasoning it - Stave sized splits.. Leave it for a couple years.

A 1/2 whiskey barrel planter that I broke up a few years ago has lasted me quite a long time and there's plenty left.. It's still sitting out in the weather seasoning more than it had originally. I cut it up into pieces and toast/char as needed but I picked up a few barrel lids as well from different barrels to add to the pile.

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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by NormandieStill »

Couldn't speak to the exact variety, but given I'm in France, French Oak. :wink: It's only a little tree (about 40cm diameter) and it's been outside taking all the weather that normandy can throw at it for at least 4 years now. I've got some of it already in jars.
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by stillcolo »

+1 on Gibbs barrels
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Ratbastrd »

Wouldn't recharring/toasting the sticks prior to use for spirits potentially change the character of the oak (maybe in a bad way). Used barrels have been toasted and charred prior to use originally, some older barrels may have been recharred again by the wineries?

So how much is too much?

I have a number of top quality French and American oak wine barrels used for good red/white wine here in Sonoma. All have been filled, at minimum 4-5 times. I've been breaking them apart and letting the staves age outside in the weather for a few years before using.

My plan to use these to age the various pear and apple brandies I've made.

I prefer Weller style whiskeys and other spirits that are more conservative with the oaking.

??? Because the barrel have been toasted and charred previously, I'm curious if I should be toasting or charring again prior to using. My thinking to date was to lightly toast the sticks in the oven at 300' for about 20 minutes to clean them up and "activate" the stick for use, but not recharring prior to use.

Feels like less is more here and then I can leave them in the new spirit longer without over doing it on the oak. Want a long slow maturation from the sticks (2-3 years).

Anyone see any issues with this?

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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by Bradster68 »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:28 pm Whatever was in the barrel will impart some character in the next contents. The best use for old wine and whiskey barrels of the commercial variety is to break them down, scrape them and cut them up into fingers or dominoes to age spirits in glass. For hobby size purposes, get a 5-gallon (half firkin) barrel if you have the ambition to fill a barrel. It's a much more realistic goal. There have been several discussions here abouts of folks who have aspired to fill an ASB, but I've yet to read of anyone being successful. A half firkin is most common, and there are a few who sport a quarter cask, and maybe a rundlet or two.

Each use will remove more of the flavors the wood imparts but cared for well they can be used indefinitely. both of my 5 gallon barrels are on their 2nd fill. (Technically one is on its 3rd, it had bourbon, then wine, now straight corn whiskey) They should last me the rest of my life if i take care of them and keep them filled. Both were acquired once used. My next will be purchased new.
I had no idea these could be reused this many times. I often get offered old whiskey barrels. Hiram walkers Canadian whiskey barrels. I'll definitely be snagging one up and playing around now.
Thanks :thumbup:
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Re: New barrels or Used Wine barrels? thoughts ?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Bourbon - by definition is aged in charred new oak barrels. If that matters.

Personally I use all kinds including new charred, used bourbon staves/fingers, used wine staves/fingers, and fruit woods. Lately i’ve been charring only bit have also toasted various bits cut down to fingers to age in jugs and larger chunks to age in gallon wide mouth jars.

If I fill a jug or jar about half to two thirds i’ll sometimes cut the wood finger long enough to reach all the way to the top so it’s not fully submerged.

Cheers!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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