Trying another Bourbon

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Bradster68
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Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Made another Bourbon. I'll master this if it kills me. Started at 10am.7lbs crushed corn added to 190 water.at 185 added my hte (first time using them and wow did it thin things out :clap: )
(I forgot I got a bag of PAN pre-cooked white corn meal I'll be trying next time as per advice from TB.)I held that temp for 7 hours before I got conversion.( seems long to me,but it converted).In another pot had my oats.5lb, wheat1lb, and rye1.5lb at 140 to 150 held each temp for a couple hours hoping for some good conversion this time.also added enzymes to that pot. When corn cooled to 150 I mixed them together. Total 23 litres of water then let sit another 6 hours till temp was about 80. ph was around 5 so I left it. my OG was 1.059.
Pitched some bakers and an hour later it going like gang busters. Also hung some eggshells in their hoping to maintain ph a little.
I'll be going twice through my pot if it works out this time🍻
Any feedback is greatly appreciated 🙏
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by still_stirrin »

Bradster68 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:10 pm Made another Bourbon…
-> 7lbs crushed corn added to 190 water.
-> at 185 added my hte
-> held that temp for 7 hours before I got conversion.
-> In another pot had my oats.5lb
-> wheat1lb
-> and rye1.5lb at 140 to 150 held each temp for a couple hours…
Total 23 litres of water… my OG was 1.059.
-> Pitched some bakers
No malted barley? That’s a valuable flavor component of any bourbon.

The wheat is an added complexity (and yes, I use wheat in my bourbon too). But wheat is not a traditional bourbon cereal grain. The same for the oats, although oats will add a natural “smoothness” to the various flavors. And it also helps mouthfeel, giving the spirit a nice supple “chewiness”.

The rye is a traditional bourbon cereal grain and is great in small proportions like you’ve used. It will add a little “spice” to the product at maturity. And rye, especially malted rye, will improve the body of the spirit.
Bradster68 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:10 pm… Also hung some eggshells in their hoping to maintain ph a little…
Any feedback is greatly appreciated
Probably didn’t need eggshells, I’ll bet. The grains themselves add enough buffering to minimize pH crash. The calcium carbonate won’t hurt, but is probably isn’t necessary. And the grains add plenty of nutrients for the yeast as well.

Keep it up. And keep good records. It will help you along the journey.

Good work.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Sporacle »

Keep us posted Bradster,
I went with
12kg micronized corn
5kg wheat malt
2kg malted barley
1kg honey malt
Pretty close to HBB from the tried and true, just with the ingredients that were available.
Sitting in the esky at the moment.

Interested to see the difference in the 2 in 12 months, this is my first large batch bourbon run
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Stonecutter »

I don’t PH buffer my AG. No issues so far. Ferment temperature is what I focus on most.
The Malted Barley is either the largest percent of cereal grains used or the second largest. I swap between Corn and Malted Barley.
In my humble opinion, twice through the pot is the way to do er’. One and done pot whiskey runs bring along a certain bitterness on the back end of the pallet. Especially if you ain’t got no copper.
Not sure of your rig. Congratulations on your all grain endeavor :thumbup:
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:06 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:10 pm Made another Bourbon…
-> 7lbs crushed corn added to 190 water.
-> at 185 added my hte
-> held that temp for 7 hours before I got conversion.
-> In another pot had my oats.5lb
-> wheat1lb
-> and rye1.5lb at 140 to 150 held each temp for a couple hours…
Total 23 litres of water… my OG was 1.059.
-> Pitched some bakers
No malted barley? That’s a valuable flavor component of any bourbon.

The wheat is an added complexity (and yes, I use wheat in my bourbon too). But wheat is not a traditional bourbon cereal grain. The same for the oats, although oats will add a natural “smoothness” to the various flavors. And it also helps mouthfeel, giving the spirit a nice supple “chewiness”.

The rye is a traditional bourbon cereal grain and is great in small proportions like you’ve used. It will add a little “spice” to the product at maturity. And rye, especially malted rye, will improve the body of the spirit.
Bradster68 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:10 pm… Also hung some eggshells in their hoping to maintain ph a little…
Any feedback is greatly appreciated
Probably didn’t need eggshells, I’ll bet. The grains themselves add enough buffering to minimize pH crash. The calcium carbonate won’t hurt, but is probably isn’t necessary. And the grains add plenty of nutrients for the yeast as well.

Keep it up. And keep good records. It will help you along the journey.

Good work.
ss
Thanks SS. I'll definitely add the barley next time to compare. I'm very new to the all grains and especially the flavors each grain will give. I keep very detailed notes so I can compare for future recipes. Lots to learn still.🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Sporacle wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:18 pm Keep us posted Bradster,
I went with
12kg micronized corn
5kg wheat malt
2kg malted barley
1kg honey malt
Pretty close to HBB from the tried and true, just with the ingredients that were available.
Sitting in the esky at the moment.

Interested to see the difference in the 2 in 12 months, this is my first large batch bourbon run
That's awsome. I guess I may have messed up by not adding the barley,but this should produce something at least drinkable. (although not technically a bourbon).iv got all the gear I need to do a large batch but wanna make sure my conversions and ferments go well before I risk a large batch.
Goodluck. hopefully I'm not to far behind you for a large blue barrel full of goodness.🍻
Last edited by Bradster68 on Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Stonecutter wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:27 pm I don’t PH buffer my AG. No issues so far. Ferment temperature is what I focus on most.
The Malted Barley is either the largest percent of cereal grains used or the second largest. I swap between Corn and Malted Barley.
In my humble opinion, twice through the pot is the way to do er’. One and done pot whiskey runs bring along a certain bitterness on the back end of the pallet. Especially if you ain’t got no copper.
Not sure of your rig. Congratulations on your all grain endeavor :thumbup:
Yeah I guess it unanimous about the barley(or lack of).A rookie mistake. I'll be adding for sure to see the difference it makes nextime. If nothing else it's a way to compare the difference in grain flavors I guess. I use bakers mostly so iv set up an area that luckily maintains a 80 to 85 temperature consistently and easily. The HBB recipe says eggshells for "ph autopilot".so I added them out of nervousness. Iv got a nice PH tester coming for the future. I'm on a well here so got pretty good water. I'll omit them next batch and just monitor the ph throughout the ferment. It'll also be twice through the pot forsure.🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Twisted Brick »

I wouldn't call it a rookie mistake, Brad. More like one of a handful of valuable experiences that are gonna add up to an excellent whiskey that you like. Keep up the pursuit - you're on the right track to the goodness that is AG.

I use seashells I get from the beach but they're self-regulating cheap insurance that can't hurt.

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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:06 am I wouldn't call it a rookie mistake, Brad. More like one of a handful of valuable experiences that are gonna add up to an excellent whiskey that you like. Keep up the pursuit - you're on the right track to the goodness that is AG.

I use seashells I get from the beach but they're self-regulating cheap insurance that can't hurt.

American Whiskies, Bourbons and Ryes
Thank u sir. It means alot having u guys critique my work and provide some feedback. I'm having a blast doing it and have made a few things I really enjoy sipping on. 🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

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Well after 16 days my FG Was 1.019 and my ph was 4.5. This gave me an abv of 5.25%. I waited 24 hours and took another gravity reading and gravityand ph still same. Waited another 12 hours and still the same. So I ran my strip run. (Through the potstill)Gave me about 1/2 gallon ( I collected down to just under 20%, maybe could have went lower)

Not sure but this seems to have not yielded alot. Quantity wise.
I'm guessing (and a total guess cause this is like my third all grain) but my yeast may have not fermented all the sugars in the mash. I used bakers and my temps were held at 80 perfectly throughout the ferment time. I used eggs shells as a precaution and my ph seemed to hang in there ok.
My next try will be using some corn meal and I will see if this makes a difference. I know how cracked corn can be a bitch.
Took lots of notes so I can compare for future .
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by NormandieStill »

1.019 sounds like you might have had a lot of unfermentable sugars in your mash. Did you add glucoamylase or just alpha? It looks to me like there was just alpha in your mix which would have made quite a few unfermentable sugars.

If you're not relying on bottle enzymes then you want to be mashing at the lower end of the temperature range to favour the gluco-amylase over alpha.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Deplorable »

2 to 2.5 #/gallon should yeild (in my all grain experience) between 8 and 9.5% whether using corn meal or medium fine ground feed corn.
Keep practicing, taking notes, and reading. Every mash should get better.
If your cereal grains weren't malted and/or you added no gluco amylase, that might explain why your fg was so low. HT enzymes alone won't get you all the sugar available from the starches in the grains.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Sporacle »

Bradster68 wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:50 pm So I ran my strip run. (Through the potstill)Gave me about 1/2 gallon ( I collected down to just under 20%, maybe could have went lower)
Hey Bradster, if you only went to 20 of the spout you left a fair bit behind, I think from memory 20 at the spout might be about 75 percent of the way through my strip.
If you can, collect in a single vessel and leave your meter in that. My run finishes somewhere under10 at the spout that leaves the strip a bit under 30.
I just mashed my second 100L for the recipe I listed above and improved my SG on this one.
Keep going brother :thumbup:
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Sporacle wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:54 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:50 pm So I ran my strip run. (Through the potstill)Gave me about 1/2 gallon ( I collected down to just under 20%, maybe could have went lower)
Hey Bradster, if you only went to 20 of the spout you left a fair bit behind, I think from memory 20 at the spout might be about 75 percent of the way through my strip.
If you can, collect in a single vessel and leave your meter in that. My run finishes somewhere under10 at the spout that leaves the strip a bit under 30.
I just mashed my second 100L for the recipe I listed above and improved my SG on this one.
Keep going brother :thumbup:
Dam. I thought maybe I should've collected longer,but my paranoia of me making a mistake got the best of me.
That's good to know for next time.

Thanks 🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Ben »

There are some misconceptions in this thread about the amount of barley commonly used, here is a list of a whole bunch of commercial bourbons and their mash bills: https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/ Barley is usually 5-15%, usually the lowest percentage in the mash.

Nothing wrong with omitting barley malt if you don't want it in there, use a little malted rye or wheat to make up the diastatic power and you are good to go. It isn't traditional, but its your drink, by TTB definition there is no requirement for barley. This batch also gives you a benchmark to taste other bourbons against, you could try a bourbon with a higher percentage of barley next time, compare the two side by side. See if you like it or not.
:)
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

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Ben wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:09 am There are some misconceptions in this thread about the amount of barley commonly used, here is a list of a whole bunch of commercial bourbons and their mash bills: https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/ Barley is usually 5-15%, usually the lowest percentage in the mash.

Nothing wrong with omitting barley malt if you don't want it in there, use a little malted rye or wheat to make up the diastatic power and you are good to go. It isn't traditional, but its your drink, by TTB definition there is no requirement for barley. This batch also gives you a benchmark to taste other bourbons against, you could try a bourbon with a higher percentage of barley next time, compare the two side by side. See if you like it or not.

Absolutely that's what I'll be doing. I keep "lots o notes". And got lots of variables to try. I'll be posting my experiments as I go. Doubt they'll be new but I would appreciate the feed back as I go. 🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I use the HTL and GL liquid enzymes along with malts and pitch them over a smallish range of temps around the target - eg 190*F'ish for the HTL and 150*F for the GL... Allowing the temp drop from boiling water into the corn to drop naturally over 12+hrs to 150*F (insulated). Insurance on the gelatinization and conversion. That approach has worked well every time then when I strip an almost full boiler charge, I'll strip 5-6 gallons of low wines which ends up in the 25-30%abv range. I have a floating glass thermo and an inkbird wifi to monitor temps. The inkbird allows me to set alarms that trigger on my phone so I know to go mix and check temp around the 150* point which might be in the middle of the night. Start the mash on a Saturday and pitching yeasties monday morning. Fermented dry by Wed/Thu and first strip as early as Thu/Fri. Second strip by Sat, spirit by Sun if I'm motivated..... Less motivated then I'll stretch it out between 6-8 weeks per large batch...

Keep making more and you'll get a rhythm to it :)

Reminds me - I need to motivate here soon!

Cheers!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

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jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:20 pm I use the HTL and GL liquid enzymes along with malts and pitch them over a smallish range of temps around the target - eg 190*F'ish for the HTL and 150*F for the GL... Allowing the temp drop from boiling water into the corn to drop naturally over 12+hrs to 150*F (insulated). Insurance on the gelatinization and conversion. That approach has worked well every time then when I strip an almost full boiler charge, I'll strip 5-6 gallons of low wines which ends up in the 25-30%abv range. I have a floating glass thermo and an inkbird wifi to monitor temps. The inkbird allows me to set alarms that trigger on my phone so I know to go mix and check temp around the 150* point which might be in the middle of the night. Start the mash on a Saturday and pitching yeasties monday morning. Fermented dry by Wed/Thu and first strip as early as Thu/Fri. Second strip by Sat, spirit by Sun if I'm motivated..... Less motivated then I'll stretch it out between 6-8 weeks per large batch...

Keep making more and you'll get a rhythm to it :)

Reminds me - I need to motivate here soon!

Cheers!
-j
Yes I think your right. I need to get a few more under my belt. Keep notes and make changes accordingly.
I guess 12 hours isn't that bad for mashing a batch of grains. That's about how long it took me.
🍻
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Bradster68 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:46 pm I guess 12 hours isn't that bad for mashing a batch of grains. That's about how long it took me.
🍻
With a large batch it takes me the better part of a weekend with letting temps drop naturally - from initial water/backset boil to pitching yeast starter anyway...

A wort chiller can help drop temps to pitching temp quicker and also many folks will recommend it to prevent infection - the sooneer after mash conversion you can drop temp and get the yeasties working hard the less chance of infection. This is probably true and one nasty vomit smelling infection may just convince someone to work a wort chiller into their protocol.... :)

I prefer to let it take it's time (for now anyway) and use the extended mash for better conversion I guess?

Cheers!
-j
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Sporacle »

I'm the same Johnny, micronised corn go's in first thing in the am with boiling water and is mixed in the esky with a fixed drill, a bit after lunch it's at alpha temp, mix some more and wait then add water to get to my malted grain temp and add them and stir and let them sit overnight, generally in the morning I'm at 55c or there about, add my remaining water and backset and transfer everything to my fermentor and I'm pitching around mid afternoon the day after I started.
So yeah a full two days for a 100L batch, I don't have any alarms as such so I always have my remaining water (20L in this case) to get my temp for malts before the night on the first day.
I know I could be so much quicker with a wort chiller but I like the process and it suits my routine.
I did notice a bit of stuff happening as the mash was coming down to pitching temp so maybe this might be my first major infection
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Ben »

12 hours seems long... I will starch test at 2 and it rarely takes more than 3 (milled cracked corn). I drop temp by pulling the lid and stirring, or adding a bit more water.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

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Sporacle wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:13 pm I'm the same Johnny, micronised corn go's in first thing in the am with boiling water and is mixed in the esky with a fixed drill, a bit after lunch it's at alpha temp, mix some more and wait then add water to get to my malted grain temp and add them and stir and let them sit overnight, generally in the morning I'm at 55c or there about, add my remaining water and backset and transfer everything to my fermentor and I'm pitching around mid afternoon the day after I started.
So yeah a full two days for a 100L batch, I don't have any alarms as such so I always have my remaining water (20L in this case) to get my temp for malts before the night on the first day.
I know I could be so much quicker with a wort chiller but I like the process and it suits my routine.
I did notice a bit of stuff happening as the mash was coming down to pitching temp so maybe this might be my first major infection
Guess I need to build that chiller for future use just in case.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:00 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:46 pm I guess 12 hours isn't that bad for mashing a batch of grains. That's about how long it took me.
🍻
With a large batch it takes me the better part of a weekend with letting temps drop naturally - from initial water/backset boil to pitching yeast starter anyway...

A wort chiller can help drop temps to pitching temp quicker and also many folks will recommend it to prevent infection - the sooneer after mash conversion you can drop temp and get the yeasties working hard the less chance of infection. This is probably true and one nasty vomit smelling infection may just convince someone to work a wort chiller into their protocol.... :)

I prefer to let it take it's time (for now anyway) and use the extended mash for better conversion I guess?

Cheers!
-j
Conversions is what I'll work on first. Everyone said all grain was tricky.iv had the rotten sock smell in one. Probably an infection now I look back
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Ben »

Chiller is good, saves time, gives you more control over your process. Usually the vomit or bad BO smell is caused by clostridium butyricum (creates butyric acid). If you aren't going to boil your mash you will get it from time to time. It tends to produce a lot more butyric when the mash is cooled slow. There are ways to deal with it once it's there, but the best way to remove it is prevention.
:)
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:03 pm 2 to 2.5 #/gallon should yeild (in my all grain experience) between 8 and 9.5% whether using corn meal or medium fine ground feed corn.
Keep practicing, taking notes, and reading. Every mash should get better.
If your cereal grains weren't malted and/or you added no gluco amylase, that might explain why your fg was so low. HT enzymes alone won't get you all the sugar available from the starches in the grains.
Sorry it's been a while but all my grains were malted (except corn). Should I add some gluco as a precaution? Edit 20 min later.
I think I just figured out my issue.its my.mashing temps. I'm on the high side favoring alpha and need to mash at a lower temp to favour the beta.
Last edited by Bradster68 on Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Bradster68 »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:52 pm 1.019 sounds like you might have had a lot of unfermentable sugars in your mash. Did you add glucoamylase or just alpha? It looks to me like there was just alpha in your mix which would have made quite a few unfermentable sugars.

If you're not relying on bottle enzymes then you want to be mashing at the lower end of the temperature range to favour the gluco-amylase over alpha.
This enzyme stuff is sure confusing. Guess I need to research some more,can't seem to get my head around the differences between them all alpha,beta,gluco, HTL and the temperature range of each one. :crazy:
I believe alpha breaks up insoluable starch into smaller chains and beta chops down the smaller ones.and beta is the main producer of fermentable sugars.so because beta produces the maltose it makes a more fermentable wort. So I just can't figure out what the gluco-amylase does. Is it a beta amylase and that's why I need to add it.so in hind sight, because I'm mashing at 150 I'm favoring the alpha. If I mash at 140 to 145 I'm favoring the beta. I hope this mumbo-jumbo is on track.
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Sporacle »

Bradster68 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:34 pm This enzyme stuff is sure confusing. Guess I need to research some more,can't seem to get my head around the differences between them all alpha,beta,gluco, HTL and the temperature range of each one.
Bradster, grab a sheet of paper (or in my case I use a marker on my shed wall) and write down a temp and ingredient run list.
Corn at ....
Add Alpha at ...
and so on, it helps me.
Have a look at 8balls stuff, he has great detail in his mash protocols :thumbup:
Good luck mate
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

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Sporacle wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:04 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:34 pm This enzyme stuff is sure confusing. Guess I need to research some more,can't seem to get my head around the differences between them all alpha,beta,gluco, HTL and the temperature range of each one.
Bradster, grab a sheet of paper (or in my case I use a marker on my shed wall) and write down a temp and ingredient run list.
Corn at ....
Add Alpha at ...
and so on, it helps me.
Have a look at 8balls stuff, he has great detail in his mash protocols :thumbup:
Good luck mate
Great idea. I'll be creeping 8ball shortly.
🍻
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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Deplorable
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Deplorable »

Keep at it Bradster. I had a couple of hours of panic today repeating a mash I have done before a couple of times.
I started my mash at 0745 this morning, my corn gelled up real good, and after about 3 hours of it steeping, I added my HT enzymes and let it sit. Usually after about 90 minutes or so it starts to stratify, only this time it didn't. I stirred it and left it sit again until it hit 155, and poured in my stove top rye mash, stirred, checked the temp, and stirred in my malted Barley and my usual safety net of Gluco Amylase. I covered it up to hold the heat in. Usually after about 90 minutes it's stratified again with about 3 inches of sweet nectar on top.
Not this time. I started to get worried around the 9th hour, thinking I was going to have my first failed mash.
I couldn't check pH because my pH pen took a shit and I don't have any strips. I couldn't figure out where I might have f'd up. My process is solid. I couldnt figure out what might have changed.
I moved on to other chores and figured I'd just leave it sit and dump it in the morning if it didn't convert.
It took a solid 11 hours to convert the starches to sugar. It's all wrapped up for the night now holding a 132F until morning, then I'll check the OG, crash the temp and pitch a healthy yeast starter.
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Ben
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Re: Trying another Bourbon

Post by Ben »

Sometimes things just don't cooperate. Even when you are dialed in nature has a way of kicking you in the balls.

Don't sweat the enzyme temps so much, a few degrees here or there isn't going to destroy your mash. Get the corn part as hot as you can, add high temp enzyme at AROUND 190° its fairly forgiving (122-194°) optimum is 185. Start your starch test at 2 hours, if it isn't done give it another hour, try again. If its borderline or complete you can cool down to sacc temp.

Shoot for 145 for your saccharification rest, this gives you a few degrees on either side where you will still be in the meat of it. Its a little warm for beta, but your temp is going to fall through conversion. Make sure your not dropping grain or sacc. enzyme in above 160°, that is denature temp. You can starch test in an hour and see where you are at, every half hour after that. Try not to be in there too often or your temp will fall faster than you want, stir every time you take a starch test if you aren't using a constant recirculation system.

When starch testing I like to use white glazed ceramic (old bath tile works fine). Take the clearest sample you can, and spread it around a bit. You want to be able to tell if what is failing is chunks of grain, or the liquid itself... the grain chunks will almost always fail, you are concerned with the liquid.

Eventually (if you pay attention to what you are doing) you will know what to expect from your system, you will know how much temps are going to drop, you will have an expectation of how things are going to go and what a change in the recipe does, it just takes time and experience. In the meantime you can still make great stuff, it just takes more prep work and the mash making days are a little more challenging.
:)
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