Column height vs. packing

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shadylane
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by shadylane »

bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:06 pm
Imho a CM requires a more stable water supply than a VM.
Plus 1 on CM cooling water needing to be of a constant pressure and temp.
A VM and LM doesn't have that problem .
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by OtisT »

shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:19 pm
The column height and packing makes for max purity, not the type of reflux condenser.
Here's how big the coils need on a 4" dephlegmator that can handle 6kw @ 100% reflux.
All you have to do is clamp it on the end of the column and connect the union to the reflux condenser.
Shady, this has been one of my favorite builds I’ve seen. Love that condenser. So simple. :thumbup: Otis :thumbup:
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

still_stirrin wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:24 pm I suggest looking at the CVVM or even a conventional valved VM design. Bothe work great and regulate the reflux well for a consistent %ABV product off still. CM’s can be tricky to manage to keep the product consistent as it produces.
ss
Yeah that’s the longer term goal. I’m actually really looking forward to playing and experimenting with this CM. Changing things, plotting stuff on graphs, pushing it to it’s limits… All in the name of education and having fun. Oh, and having something nice to sip on too :lolno:

The other advantage of the still is that, being modular, I can run it in pot still mode to do flavoured stuff too. Can’t wait for my first rum to roll off the production line!

My thinking is that by the time I can run this rig well, I will be ready to graduate to something a bit more refined. By that time I will have a good understanding of the distilling process, and how different factors influence product quality and quantity. It’s one thing reading it in a forum, it’s another to get in there and do it.

For my next upgrade I’m favouring VM, with the option to perhaps add LM later on.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:19 pm Here's how big the coils need on a 4" dephlegmator that can handle 6kw @ 100% reflux.
All you have to do is clamp it on the end of the column and connect the union to the reflux condenser.
Ooh, I’m very interested in this. Do you have a link where you provided more details on this biild?
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by Salt Must Flow »

shadylane wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:40 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:00 pm
VM still has advantages over other designs.
A VM also has some disadvantages compared to a CM or LM.

A VM needs a large valve to control the take off and the reflux condenser is tall.
It doesn't have the ability to be run at low reflux ratios like a CM or LM can.
At best on a VM can only take off half the alcohol and the other half is condensed as reflux.
That's why a VM takeoff isn't used above plates, because the excess reflux would flood the plates.


The reflux condenser for a LM can be mounted almost horizontally is needed.
Last but not least, a LM can be run without a product condenser.
I totally understand your point, but there's always another way to skin that cat. For instance you could install a blank plate beneath the reflux condenser with any size hole you want. That would increase the takeoff rate and reduce the reflux ratio based on the hole size.

I'm pretty sure any reflux condenser design that can be used for a LM should be able to be used with a VM too. Like a Thor's Hammer for instance or even double wound coil fixed at a steep angle.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by shadylane »

rockymars wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:07 am
shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:19 pm Here's how big the coils need on a 4" dephlegmator that can handle 6kw @ 100% reflux.
All you have to do is clamp it on the end of the column and connect the union to the reflux condenser.
Ooh, I’m very interested in this. Do you have a link where you provided more details on this biild?
It was part of this.
viewtopic.php?t=74391
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm why would you convert it to a VM?
It has been my impression that CMs are hard to run and finicky wrt cooling water flow and temperature. Depending on who you ask, VM and/or CCVM are the way to go…
howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm not having a go at any particular style of still, but that CM gives excellent quality product.
especially using a shotgun RC instead of the old cross-thru cooling tubes CM type, the RC uses very little water to achieve full reflux.
This gives me a bit of reassurance. I bought this still because it had good bones. It would be relatively simple to modify it, simply by getting additional tri clamp Lego. However if I don’t need to, that would be awesome. I’m fully committed to have a good crack at running this beast, and if I get a good product, why fix it if it ain’t broken?
howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm when you get used to balancing your rig it will get easy.
once i have set my RC water rate i never have to change it*, i just do small alterations to the power controller if i want to change the output.

*disclaimer - i have a submersible pump in a 50kL water tank.
Swimming pool? Rainwater tank? I’m currently looking at 1,000L IBCs, that’s the biggest I can accommodate. They go for $120-150 in my neck of the woods, seems reasonable. If not an IBC, I’ll try to score a 200L blue plastic drum. Keeping an eye on Gumtree.
howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm as for for weight, the whole thing gets a bit heavy, especially when refluxing (when both condensers are full of water)
the lid is ok weight wise and will support everything you've got (downward weight)
i just support mine to prevent any sideways flexing, i didn't like the look of it when i had the 4" gin basket on as well :esurprised:
Oh shite, didn’t think if that. How do you support yours?
howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm other stuff,presuming that's a 2" column?
clark rubber sell pipe insulation, slides on great
https://www.clarkrubber.com.au/products ... 0662319158
Yep 2” column. I saw those at Clark Rubber but wasn’t sure if they’d last? I’ve also been looking into insulating my boiler. I’ve found a purpose made neoprene jacket for the Digiboil. Seems a bit expensive though.

Anyway, thanks for throwing your support in the ring for the CM. I’m getting really excited now! :mrgreen:
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

shadylane wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:16 pm It was part of this.
viewtopic.php?t=74391
Woah! :shock: That’s some serious copper porn/steampunk stuff happening there! Definitely one of my favourite threads on HD :thumbup:
Love your originality and tenacity!
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

I must say, this thread has come a long way since my innocent/stupid noob question. I’ve been happy to let it go where it wants to, and by the gods, have I been receiving and education!

You see, the grumpies that sent me off to go read more, thank you. Not sure what for though…

I’ve indeed gone off reading some more. Not the bloody thousands of pages of guff to get to the good stuff. I was pointed in very specific directions by the the constructive and informative posts by those that took an active interest in my education. I’ve been doing some very targeted research, and I’m still learning. But I’m learning the stuff I need to know, the good stuff, not reading till my eyes bleed on guff.

Thank you everyone, thank you for your interest and valuable contributions. I feel honoured to be educated by (in my view) some of the best minds active on HD at this point in time.

Rocky
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by shadylane »

Damn we have gone far off topic, but it's the novice section and the info was what you needed.
Here's an idea for searching posts with pictures.
When you use the "google search" in the upper right hand corner.
Include the word image :ewink:
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by GrumbleStill »

howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm
as for for weight, the whole thing gets a bit heavy, especially when refluxing (when both condensers are full of water)
the lid is ok weight wise and will support everything you've got (downward weight)
i just support mine to prevent any sideways flexing, i didn't like the look of it when i had the 4" gin basket on as well :esurprised:
+1 on that. The flex got the better of me, couldn’t help but think it was a fatigue crack just waiting to happen. Forked out for the new heavy duty lid. Bit exxy, but solid as a brick s’house.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by howie »

rockymars wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:56 pm
howie wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:43 pm

the clark rubber pipes are still going strong after 2 years.
i have an overhead pulley for support and BIAB bag use.
imho go for the biggest water supply you can get, some reflux runs go for a few hours.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by howie »

[/quote]

+1 on that. The flex got the better of me, couldn’t help but think it was a fatigue crack just waiting to happen. Forked out for the new heavy duty lid. Bit exxy, but solid as a brick s’house.
[/quote]
is the heavy duty lid just the normal 2" accessory from Kegland etc, or a lid from some other source?
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by GrumbleStill »

howie wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:43 am
is the heavy duty lid just the normal 2" accessory from Kegland etc, or a lid from some other source?
[/quote]

Kegland does a couple of 2” lids, standard & heavy duty. I started out with the standard model & upgraded cos’ of the flex. The standard has a single 47mm hole on top, whereas the heavy duty has a welded 2” ferrule for the column, and 3” ferrule for sight glass / agitator.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by howie »

GrumbleStill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:16 am
howie wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:43 am
is the heavy duty lid just the normal 2" accessory from Kegland etc, or a lid from some other source?
Kegland does a couple of 2” lids, standard & heavy duty. I started out with the standard model & upgraded cos’ of the flex. The standard has a single 47mm hole on top, whereas the heavy duty has a welded 2” ferrule for the column, and 3” ferrule for sight glass / agitator.
[/quote]
ok, you must mean this one?
https://www.kegland.com.au/35l-pro-sigh ... r-lid.html
i saw it, but was put off by the $144 price tag (and i've just missed fathers day :) )
and i sent them a question about PPSU sight glass, but i didn't get a reply.
i suppose the 3" can be replaced by glass or SS
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by Yummyrum »

howie wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:03 am
GrumbleStill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:16 am
howie wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:43 am
is the heavy duty lid just the normal 2" accessory from Kegland etc, or a lid from some other source?
Kegland does a couple of 2” lids, standard & heavy duty. I started out with the standard model & upgraded cos’ of the flex. The standard has a single 47mm hole on top, whereas the heavy duty has a welded 2” ferrule for the column, and 3” ferrule for sight glass / agitator.
ok, you must mean this one?
https://www.kegland.com.au/35l-pro-sigh ... r-lid.html
i saw it, but was put off by the $144 price tag (and i've just missed fathers day :) )
and i sent them a question about PPSU sight glass, but i didn't get a reply.
i suppose the 3" can be replaced by glass or SS
[/quote]

Plastic sight glass and Silicone Orings . Not tickling my fancy . Not to mention , it's a rule breaker on HD
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rubberduck71 »

howie wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:03 am ok, you must mean this one?
https://www.kegland.com.au/35l-pro-sigh ... r-lid.html
i saw it, but was put off by the $144 price tag (and i've just missed fathers day :) )
and i sent them a question about PPSU sight glass, but i didn't get a reply.
i suppose the 3" can be replaced by glass or SS
That's a nice lid & all, but check this one out for not much more that will add more copper to the vapor path: https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Home-Di ... Still-Dome

And if you can catch it on sale, all the better.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by RC Al »

Geeze guys

In OZ a 50l keg with 2x 2000/2400w elements could be achieved for less than the $144

Jus saying

Edit, i will even say 6kw in a keg for less than that
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by drmiller100 »

rockymars wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:09 am Hey all,

A total noob question about column height to achieve azeo.

I’m planning to build a modular 2” CCVM still using tri clamp sections, Meccano style.

I’m aware that the column height is quoted in a range of 1:15-1:24 of column diameter. If I push it to the limit, let’s say I make my column height 48”/1.22m.

Now I’m just a bit confused by something. Is this the height to achieve azeo without packing? Or so I need to add packing too.
36 inches of 13 mm marbles will work in 2 , 3, o 4 inch columns.

I run LM with an almost horizontal condenser. Super simple. Easy to Make. As good as anything else imo.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by rockymars »

drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:06 pm 36 inches of 13 mm marbles will work in 2 , 3, o 4 inch columns.

I run LM with an almost horizontal condenser. Super simple. Easy to Make. As good as anything else imo.
Funnily enough, I have been reading up on marbles for the last week. I’m seriously considering that option.

The other option I am looking at is ceramic pie weights. They’re about 10mm diameter, unpolished and not too expensive (AU$35 will give me 36” worth).

Any opinion on that?
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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rockymars wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:22 am
drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:06 pm 36 inches of 13 mm marbles will work in 2 , 3, o 4 inch columns.

I run LM with an almost horizontal condenser. Super simple. Easy to Make. As good as anything else imo.
Funnily enough, I have been reading up on marbles for the last week. I’m seriously considering that option.

The other option I am looking at is ceramic pie weights. They’re about 10mm diameter, unpolished and not too expensive (AU$35 will give me 36” worth).

Any opinion on that?
I think I know tho pie weights You are talking about.
LOL , never thought about them in that way before….. but yes , you could well be on the money .

What size column are talking about when you quote $35 AUD ? … I’m quite keen .
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by Bushman »

I had to look up pie weights. They do appear to be ceramic and 10 mm in diameter.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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Yummyrum wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:33 am I think I know tho pie weights You are talking about.
LOL , never thought about them in that way before….. but yes , you could well be on the money .

What size column are talking about when you quote $35 AUD ? … I’m quite keen .
Hey Yummy,

The pie weights look like these:
Cuisena 94645 Ceramic Pie Weights, Cre ... /d/igyDkrl
Due to my frustration with delivery times out of China (AliExpress), I’m happy to pay slightly more but have things delivered quicker. The above link is from Amazon AU, shipped from AU (Sydney).

I had one packet at home which was meant for baking. I chucked it into a 2” tri clamp tube, and measured how much they took up. I need to buy 5 more packets to make up 36” worth, and to have some spare.

For what it’s worth, 460 grams worth of pie weights take up approx 335 mL of tube internal volume, i.e. use tube ID in your calc.

I have a good feeling about this, not much on HD regarding using them for packing (apart from two posters mentioning they might look into it, nothing reported back. I’ll happily be the trailblazer. :wink:

If they are crap, let’s say that will be a small price to pay in the name of the science of home distilling. :egeek:

I do plan to run a series of experiments with marbles later on to determine:
  • if I can find an optimum size of the marbles (well it will actually be for the size ratio of column inner diameter D to marble diameter d, D/d)
  • for my optimum D/d, if polished, etched or scuffed marbles are any different
  • if there is an optimum packing height for a given D/d
  • if I can calculate the HETP for different D/d so that we can have the HETP calculator calibrated correctly for marbles.
Using D/d will hopefully generalise my results for other column sizes.

Somebody’s going to buy a crap load of marbles… :mrgreen:
Last edited by rockymars on Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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Bushman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:55 am I had to look up pie weights. They do appear to be ceramic and 10 mm in diameter.
Yep those are the ones!
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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rockymars wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:02 pm
Somebody’s going to buy a crap load of marbles… :mrgreen:
I've got a 5 gallon bucket that's over half full.
It would have been almost full, but there was an accident. :shock:
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:18 pm
rockymars wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:02 pm
Somebody’s going to buy a crap load of marbles… :mrgreen:
I've got a 5 gallon bucket that's over half full.
It would have been almost full, but there was an accident. :shock:
Diameter?
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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0.570 inch
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by Bushman »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:49 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:18 pm
rockymars wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:02 pm
Somebody’s going to buy a crap load of marbles… :mrgreen:
I've got a 5 gallon bucket that's over half full.
It would have been almost full, but there was an accident. :shock:
Diameter?
At first I thought why does he care about the diameter of the bucket until I realized you are talking about the marbles. I am limiting myself to one drink.
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Re: Column height vs. packing

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Bushy,
To be fair, someone, somewhere, may very well need to know the diameter of that bucket.
Don't be so hard on your drunk self man..........
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Re: Column height vs. packing

Post by shadylane »

Apparently, I've lost some of my marbles. :oops:
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