Managing volumes
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Managing volumes
Ok. Perhaps more measuring volumes than managing them.
In preparation for an upcoming apple brandy run I took a look back at my early notes... and realised that right at the start I didn't keep any. Over time my note taking has gotten better but I realise that what's missing in a lot of cases is any indication of volumes. For a while I've been recording my spirit run volumes but to fully understand yield it'd be good to know what went in from the start.
So for you religiously note-taking old hands... how are you measuring the volume that goes into the still?
I know what I've made when mashing in (I have my full ingredients list including volume of water) but I'm less clear on what I get back after squeezing and racking.
And I have a rough idea (generally to the nearest half litre) how much low wine I get from each stripping run but it's not that accurate a measurement and the errors compound over 3 or 4 strips.
In preparation for an upcoming apple brandy run I took a look back at my early notes... and realised that right at the start I didn't keep any. Over time my note taking has gotten better but I realise that what's missing in a lot of cases is any indication of volumes. For a while I've been recording my spirit run volumes but to fully understand yield it'd be good to know what went in from the start.
So for you religiously note-taking old hands... how are you measuring the volume that goes into the still?
I know what I've made when mashing in (I have my full ingredients list including volume of water) but I'm less clear on what I get back after squeezing and racking.
And I have a rough idea (generally to the nearest half litre) how much low wine I get from each stripping run but it's not that accurate a measurement and the errors compound over 3 or 4 strips.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
Re: Managing volumes
It's not very often that I know exactly what volume went into the still. I only really pay attention if there might be a problem with the volume of the charge compared to the volume of the boiler.
- shadylane
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Re: Managing volumes
There's a stain mark on my fermenter.
If I fill the fermenter above that, there's too much to fit in the boiler.
All jokes aside, keeping a distilling diary is a good idea.
When you read and look back, it brings forgotten thoughts and information to mind.
- BlueSasquatch
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Re: Managing volumes
My notebook rarely has as good of notes in it, as my memory told me it did.
I just run with the assumption of my mash volume when calculating my starting keg volume. Granted it's lower due to vapor loss during mashing, spills, squeezing the grain, etc. but I lack a good means of really having an exact measurement, apart from 80 uses of a measuring cup.
If it was something of concern for you, you could get a large vessel, use a measuring cup, fill it with exact amounts, mark it on the container what that amount is, and then you've essentially made a monster measuring cup. use it to transfer your wash to your still, and make a note. But seems a bit like an insignificant variable, atleast to the degree that it would take, to measure it accurately, everytime.
I just run with the assumption of my mash volume when calculating my starting keg volume. Granted it's lower due to vapor loss during mashing, spills, squeezing the grain, etc. but I lack a good means of really having an exact measurement, apart from 80 uses of a measuring cup.
If it was something of concern for you, you could get a large vessel, use a measuring cup, fill it with exact amounts, mark it on the container what that amount is, and then you've essentially made a monster measuring cup. use it to transfer your wash to your still, and make a note. But seems a bit like an insignificant variable, atleast to the degree that it would take, to measure it accurately, everytime.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
- Salt Must Flow
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Re: Managing volumes
The main thing that determines the amount of low wines vs boiler charge is to what % ABV of total collected low wines you strip to. If you strip to 40% ABV total collected low wines then you'll end up with less than if you stripped to 30% total collected low wines.
I ferment in 55 gal poly drums. I poured 5 gal of water in, drew a line with a Sharpie marker and repeated over and over again. I later took an engraver, engraved permanent lines and marked the engravings with Sharpie marker again. I always note the total volume of my fermentations, their date, temp, SG, FG and PH.
For stripping runs, it depends on the boiler size. I use a large boiler for stripping so there's no need for me to note the volume of my boiler charge because I transfer the entire fermenter over to the boiler. I often use my boiler as the fermenter so once again, no need to note the boiler charge. IF you use a smaller boiler, do multiple stripping runs then technically you don't need to know the exact boiler charge because all of what you fermented ends up getting stripped anyway. So again, the amount you collect mainly depends on the % ABV of your total collected low wines.
I ferment in 55 gal poly drums. I poured 5 gal of water in, drew a line with a Sharpie marker and repeated over and over again. I later took an engraver, engraved permanent lines and marked the engravings with Sharpie marker again. I always note the total volume of my fermentations, their date, temp, SG, FG and PH.
For stripping runs, it depends on the boiler size. I use a large boiler for stripping so there's no need for me to note the volume of my boiler charge because I transfer the entire fermenter over to the boiler. I often use my boiler as the fermenter so once again, no need to note the boiler charge. IF you use a smaller boiler, do multiple stripping runs then technically you don't need to know the exact boiler charge because all of what you fermented ends up getting stripped anyway. So again, the amount you collect mainly depends on the % ABV of your total collected low wines.
Re: Managing volumes
You know what's in the fermenter based on your starting volume (marks on a bucket), the alcohol content by the starting and final gravity readings, those two things give proof gallons of the charge.
Figure out what your strip take off is in proof gallons, divide that by your charged proof gallons, that gives you your yield percentage.
Then you can take your final blend, figure out the proof gallons and divide that into your charge proof and get your final take percentage.
Average that over a bunch of runs and you will have an expectation. You can figure out how many pounds of grain, or sugar or fruit it takes you to make a proof gallon.
Of course it becomes sort of a moving target, and will be a little different based on the ingredients, and what you are cutting for, and how you recycle your feints. But you should know that if you are starting fresh for the fruit season and have no feints you can expect X bottles from Y amount of fruit (assuming you bring the starting gravity to about the same number). Or if you are doing a run of Bourbon and recycling feints you can expect X volume at barrel strength from Y lbs of grain and know how many runs its going to take you to fill a barrel of a given size.
Or just wing it and hope your memory is right. That's what I do... tastes good.
Figure out what your strip take off is in proof gallons, divide that by your charged proof gallons, that gives you your yield percentage.
Then you can take your final blend, figure out the proof gallons and divide that into your charge proof and get your final take percentage.
Average that over a bunch of runs and you will have an expectation. You can figure out how many pounds of grain, or sugar or fruit it takes you to make a proof gallon.
Of course it becomes sort of a moving target, and will be a little different based on the ingredients, and what you are cutting for, and how you recycle your feints. But you should know that if you are starting fresh for the fruit season and have no feints you can expect X bottles from Y amount of fruit (assuming you bring the starting gravity to about the same number). Or if you are doing a run of Bourbon and recycling feints you can expect X volume at barrel strength from Y lbs of grain and know how many runs its going to take you to fill a barrel of a given size.
Or just wing it and hope your memory is right. That's what I do... tastes good.
:)
Re: Managing volumes
I rack into carboys to let the wash sit a week or two to clear before I run it. This also frees up my large fermenter so I can get a new batch started. My carboys are etched with volume marking so I then know the amount I dump into the boiler.
From last years brandy notes
Fermented 48 gal with an OG of 1.048
First stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.5 gal low wines at 27%
Second stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.5 gal low wines at 27%
Third stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.4 gal low wines at 27%
Fourth stripping run 9 gal - gave 2.0 gal at 28%
Spirit run and after cuts 2.2 gal at 67%
From last years brandy notes
Fermented 48 gal with an OG of 1.048
First stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.5 gal low wines at 27%
Second stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.5 gal low wines at 27%
Third stripping run 12 gal - gave 2.4 gal low wines at 27%
Fourth stripping run 9 gal - gave 2.0 gal at 28%
Spirit run and after cuts 2.2 gal at 67%
Re: Managing volumes
I generally measure the volumes in the fermenter, then the volumes of low wines and their% with respect to the fermenter, then I measure the volumes of the heads, hearts, tails and their percentages with respect to low wines. Finally, I calculate the% of hearts with respect to the fermenter, this allows me to estimate the product. Not everything is necessary but it allows you to have a complete picture of the product.
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Re: Managing volumes
My low tech method is to measure the distance from the top edge of the boiler's rim down to the top of the boiler charge. Knowing the distance I look up the volume from a table I made previously. For example on a 13 gal milk can boiler: 6" from rim = 12 gal, 7.5" = 11 gal, 9" = 10 gal, 10.5" = 9 gal, etc. For a distance between two entries then interpolate, for example 1/2 inch is equivalent to about 1/3 gallon. You just have to keep it straight that as distance goes down the volume goes up. The same method should work for other boilers or containers, as long as there's a fixed point of reference at the top and there's a way to measure the liquid level from that point.
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Re: Managing volumes
I like this idea. I was thinking of making a dip stick out of copper but this seems easier.BoilerMaker wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:46 pm My low tech method is to measure the distance from the top edge of the boiler's rim down to the top of the boiler charge. Knowing the distance I look up the volume from a table I made previously. For example on a 13 gal milk can boiler: 6" from rim = 12 gal, 7.5" = 11 gal, 9" = 10 gal, 10.5" = 9 gal, etc. For a distance between two entries then interpolate, for example 1/2 inch is equivalent to about 1/3 gallon. You just have to keep it straight that as distance goes down the volume goes up. The same method should work for other boilers or containers, as long as there's a fixed point of reference at the top and there's a way to measure the liquid level from that point.
It's a question of recipe scaling. My first attempt at an apple brandy produced about 1L @ 65% from 25L, but I have little faith in the numbers I produced. I wanted to be sure that from now on, when I test something I get a reasonable idea of what I'll get from scaling up.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
- Deplorable
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Re: Managing volumes
My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
Re: Managing volumes
Same thing ... I engraved the liters with a mini drill (and delicate hand), you do it once and you don't think about it anymoreDeplorable wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:05 pm My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
- squigglefunk
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Re: Managing volumes
one truck bed is what I have in my notes for a good volume for apples to start a brandy
Re: Managing volumes
My pot boiler does not have any marks inside. It would be helpful if it did. I have an electric engraver that can be used on metal/plastic. Could I use that to mark the gallons on the inside?Demy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 pmSame thing ... I engraved the liters with a mini drill (and delicate hand), you do it once and you don't think about it anymoreDeplorable wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:05 pm My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
- Deplorable
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Re: Managing volumes
Absolutely.sadie33 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:20 pmMy pot boiler does not have any marks inside. It would be helpful if it did. I have an electric engraver that can be used on metal/plastic. Could I use that to mark the gallons on the inside?Demy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 pmSame thing ... I engraved the liters with a mini drill (and delicate hand), you do it once and you don't think about it anymoreDeplorable wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:05 pm My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
Re: Managing volumes
Absolutely.
thanks deplorable.
thanks deplorable.
Re: Managing volumes
I took a piece of wood and marked it with my soldering iron after adding a gallon at a time. It lives in the corner and it’s easy to read. I can’t see inside my keg with a two inch bung hole.
If in doubt leave it out.
- SaltyStaves
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Re: Managing volumes
It was ridiculously easy for me to modify a 12V 1A DC wall charger and use salt water to make permanent etching on my stainless steel vessels.
- Saltbush Bill
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Re: Managing volumes
As above , its easier to make a "Dip Stick" to measure volume, I have quite a few fermenters that are different shapes....one is a stainless steel round tank that holds 200L another is an old stainless hospital bin on wheels that holds about 180L, there are others of different dimensions.
Ive made measuring stick / dip stick for all of them.
Use the calculator in the link below to make one if you want......set it to "Vertical Cylinder" ......the calculator does multiple shapes as long as you set it right. It can also be used to mark a boiler or other container as you have just done without needing to pour different amounts of liquid in first.
LINK .......> https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculat ... n/tank.php
Re: Managing volumes
I used a bit with a diamond surface (cheap) and rotating and it worked well, if you use the vibrating type (like for the tattoo machine) make sure you adjust the vibration well so that it is not too violent (so as not to dent the surface or pierce if thin)sadie33 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:20 pmMy pot boiler does not have any marks inside. It would be helpful if it did. I have an electric engraver that can be used on metal/plastic. Could I use that to mark the gallons on the inside?Demy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 pmSame thing ... I engraved the liters with a mini drill (and delicate hand), you do it once and you don't think about it anymoreDeplorable wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:05 pm My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
- jonnys_spirit
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Re: Managing volumes
I’ve got a couple 5g buckets marked in 1g increments plus five and six gallon carboys. Works well if you keep track of how much you dump in. The 5 and 8 gallon stock pots are internally marked for blending larger batches.
Cheers!
-j
Cheers!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
- squigglefunk
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Re: Managing volumes
I just got here by luck but with my 55 gal fermenter, with an all grain ferment I get two stripping runs in my 18.5 gal still plus enough wash left over to add to the spirit run to get the still nice and full. I drain the grain bed dry but I don't squeeze the grains so I am leaving some behind but it's not enough to worry about IMO and not worth the mess and time. I usually re-use the grain bed for a "gumball" ferment anyway.
I feel like this is actually way easier than using 5 gal buckets like I used to
I feel like this is actually way easier than using 5 gal buckets like I used to
Re: Managing volumes
Demy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:29 amI used a bit with a diamond surface (cheap) and rotating and it worked well, if you use the vibrating type (like for the tattoo machine) make sure you adjust the vibration well so that it is not too violent (so as not to dent the surface or pierce if thin)sadie33 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:20 pmI have the vibrating one, and you can adjust the speed. It came out really good, except I engraved my #2 backwards. But I know it's a 2 so I guess that's all that matters.Demy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 pmSame thing ... I engraved the liters with a mini drill (and delicate hand), you do it once and you don't think about it anymoreDeplorable wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:05 pm My boiler is etched with volume marks by liter so I know how much is going in whether it be volume of water for mashing, stripping run or sprit run.
I have a 13 gallon milk can boiler. I used my vinyl plotter to make a stencil after doing the math to determine where the marks needed to be.
I applied the stencil to the inside of the boiler and used salt water, a cotton ball and a 12V battery charger to electro etch the still.
My pot boiler does not have any marks inside. It would be helpful if it did. I have an electric engraver that can be used on metal/plastic. Could I use that to mark the gallons on the inside?
Re: Managing volumes
A little late to the party, but I use a 1/2" square x 36" wooden dipstick marked on 4 sides with a pencil type soldering iron.
Side 1 with 5 gallon marks for my 30 gallon HDPE fermenters.
Side 2 with 1 gallon marks for 5 gallon corny keg (I strip into these)
Side 3 with 1 gallon marks for a 15 gallon kettle
Side 4 with 1 gallon marks for 15.5 gallon beer keg
I always wash it after use, then spray and wipe with StarSan or saved heads.
Side 1 with 5 gallon marks for my 30 gallon HDPE fermenters.
Side 2 with 1 gallon marks for 5 gallon corny keg (I strip into these)
Side 3 with 1 gallon marks for a 15 gallon kettle
Side 4 with 1 gallon marks for 15.5 gallon beer keg
I always wash it after use, then spray and wipe with StarSan or saved heads.
Higgins
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- jonnys_spirit
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Re: Managing volumes
I'm looking for a long handled "gallon'ish scoop" so I don't need to climb into the 55g HDPE barrel and maybe I can save my back!.. SS or copper would be a nice score..squigglefunk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:42 am I just got here by luck but with my 55 gal fermenter, with an all grain ferment I get two stripping runs in my 18.5 gal still plus enough wash left over to add to the spirit run to get the still nice and full. I drain the grain bed dry but I don't squeeze the grains so I am leaving some behind but it's not enough to worry about IMO and not worth the mess and time. I usually re-use the grain bed for a "gumball" ferment anyway.
I feel like this is actually way easier than using 5 gal buckets like I used to
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
- squigglefunk
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Re: Managing volumes
I use a stainless steel 5 gallon pot to scoop the liquid from the top when it's full, This works fine for the first stripping run. As I get to the second run, I use a small pond pump, I pump the liquid until I get to the grains. I then set the pump in a stainless steel colander. I press the colander down into the grain bed to create a well, as it drains I will dig a hole down into the grain bed until I hit the bottom. With the strainer in place the liquid will slowly drain into the strainer. I will drain it down, shut it off and let gravity fill it back up. After a few hrs the grain bed is pretty much dry.jonnys_spirit wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:33 am
I'm looking for a long handled "gallon'ish scoop" so I don't need to climb into the 55g HDPE barrel and maybe I can save my back!.. SS or copper would be a nice score..
-j