Mixers and Agitators

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drmiller100
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Mixers and Agitators

Post by drmiller100 »

Proof!!!!
Last edited by drmiller100 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by shadylane »

drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:58 pm A mixer for the boiler limits entrainment and ensures all the boiling wash is the same temperature.

Proof!!!!
@ drmiller100 are you asking for proof that this is true?
Last edited by shadylane on Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by drmiller100 »

shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:36 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:58 pm A mixer for the boiler limits entrainment and ensures all the boiling wash is the same temperature.

Proof!!!!
@ drmiller100 are you asking for proof that this is true?

@ BlueSasquatch and contrahead thanks for sharing.
When I see your names, I always take the time to read what you've found. :thumbup:
Sarcasm??? I was making fun of some crazy beliefs?
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by shadylane »

drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:37 pm
Sarcasm??? I was making fun of some crazy beliefs?
I'm still confused as to your meaning?
Are you saying this Is a crazy belief?
"A mixer for the boiler limits entrainment and ensures all the boiling wash is the same temperature"

Is so, this needs a separate post,
So, we don't highjack this one.
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agitators / mixers

Post by HDNB »

i didn't get it either, so moving posts into an appropriate thread
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Re: agitators / mixers

Post by shadylane »

HDNB wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:46 pm i didn't get it either, so moving posts into an appropriate thread
Plus one.
I was going to start a new thread about this.
Thanks for moving it, so we didn't highjack where it started at. :thumbup:
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Re: agitators / mixers

Post by drmiller100 »

HDNB wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:46 pm i didn't get it either, so moving posts into an appropriate thread
I'm not going to argue the earth is round, my butt stinks or there are different Temps in a pot of boiling water.

I'm not going to argue entrainment or vapor speed or the stupidity of a Still with no vents.

I don't frequent this sub forum but I wish you all the absolute best!!!!
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by shadylane »

You made a statement that many would disagree with and here's a chance to explain yourself.
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Re: Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by squigglefunk »

proof or poof?
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Ben
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Re: agitators / mixers

Post by Ben »

drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:35 pm

I'm not going to argue the earth is round, my butt stinks or there are different Temps in a pot of boiling water.

This is a great way to solicit intelligent conversation on a forum. Well done.
:)
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Re: Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by HDNB »

back on topic here, i have a steam jacketed boiler. when i first got it i tried running it sans mixer.
the result was that the outside liquid boiled, but not the middle of it. this led to smearing, since any movement of liquid just brought in new material, with new heads and tails, it basically produced shit for the whole run. It was also exceedingly slow, since the outer material would boil off the little alcohol and then would have to be replace with alcohol bearing material from elsewhere in the kettle, before it could (obviously) output any more.

Adding the mixer allowed the whole mass to come to the same temperature and gave a more normal take off gradient, where heads come off, and made way for some quality booze and then finally tails. run times were reduced by about a factor of 3 or more.... a shit low wines run producing virtually nothing with no mixer took like 16 hours and wasn't done....with the mixer i could strip the whole thing in 4 hours and a slower spirit run takes about 12 hours. (it's on the bigger size end of the scale)

fwiw
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Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by Windy City »

I agree with HDNB but also have found that if I don't have the mixer on in my self contained steam jacketed still the heat exchange from the jacket to mash is very poor and my jacket will start building pressure. When the mixer is on my steam jacket won't build any pressure until I am late in the tails. Even then it will only get to 2- 2 1/2 Psi. If the mixer is off it will easily get well over 5 Psi + early in the run. I truly believe mixers are a near mandatory item for bain marie and steam jacketed stills.
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Re: Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by squigglefunk »

yup, I have this fancy mixer I use as the mash heats. I think once its all up to temp and convection is working the mixing part is not as important.
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Re: Re: Short History of the Art of Distillation by Forbes

Post by Windy City »

squigglefunk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:08 am yup, I have this fancy mixer I use as the mash heats. I think once its all up to temp and convection is working the mixing part is not as important.
How are you heating the boiler??
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Novice rules

Post by drmiller100 »

The mods took my posts from another thread and threw them here in the novice section. Then they changed the thread name twice. So I changed it again.

After all, is it my thread or not?

There are sacred cows here.

One cow is if you have pure thoughts amd a clear conscience a 4 gallon pot of boiling beer can have different temperatures within it and you can control this.

If you want to really be mystical research entrainment.

This belongs in the novice section obviously
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by Stonecutter »

You were given ample time to respond and back up the claims you made. Yet here you stand on your soap box railing against the MODS.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I have a question about this "boiling at different temperatures". What if someone heated their boiler at let's say 5500W full blast until the boiler reached 180F or so. Then MAINTAINED 180F for 10-15 minutes (or longer). Would maintaining that temp (for whatever amount of time) then increasing power satisfy this idea of different temps within the boiler? Seriously, just asking.
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Re: Novice rules

Post by shadylane »

drmiller100 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:59 pm
There are sacred cows here.

One cow is if you have pure thoughts amd a clear conscience a 4 gallon pot of boiling beer can have different temperatures within it and you can control this.
Seems like the vast majority of professional distillers use boiler agitation.

I've got a question for you, have you ever moved a temp probe around in a pot that hasn't got to a hard rolling boil? Have you every compared the time it takes for the pot to get to temp with and without agitation?
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Re: Novice rules

Post by drmiller100 »

shadylane wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:16 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:59 pm
There are sacred cows here.

One cow is if you have pure thoughts amd a clear conscience a 4 gallon pot of boiling beer can have different temperatures within it and you can control this.
Seems like the vast majority of professional distillers use boiler agitation.

I've got a question for you, have you ever moved a temp probe around in a pot that hasn't got to a hard rolling boil? Have you every compared the time it takes for the pot to get to temp with and without agitation?
Who cares what happens in the pot before a full boil? You can't distill if stuff isn't boiling.

Yes I have measured a boiling pot. And the vapor coming off. And numerous points in a reflux column to map the entropy curves in the column.

Stirring the pot does not make it boil better or faster or sooner.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by drmiller100 »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:56 pm You were given ample time to respond and back up the claims you made. Yet here you stand on your soap box railing against the MODS.
I'm not going to argue the earth is round, my butt stinks or there are different Temps in a pot of boiling water.

I'm not going to argue entrainment or vapor speed or the stupidity of a Still with no vents.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Novice rules

Post by Windy City »

drmiller100 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:40 pm Stirring the pot does not make it boil better or faster or sooner.
This might be true in a immersion element or direct fire (not to say it wouldn’t help) but I know for a fact that it is completely false in a jacketed still. In a jacketed still you get much better heat transfer with a mixer. It truly shines and is needed when distilling on the grain at 2 1/2 to 3 pounds a gallon.
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http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by bcook608 »

I'm inclined to believe that agitation would help any kind of still. Especially Jacketed boilers and probably for stills that have an internal element that might be pushing lower than ideal power.

I have a 26 gallon still that is very tall, I haven't run it with any agitation yet so I can't speak to any time savings, but I can't imagine agitation WOULDN'T help reduce the 5+ hour heat up time... Which is what I'm stuck with until I can get access to 220v in my stilling room.
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by Metalking00 »

Convection ovens have lower temps and shorter cooking times than a conventional oven for the same recipe because they are constantly being agitated by a fan.

The fact that convection currents exist in a liquid that is being heated is actual proof that there ARE different temperatures inside a boiler, even if only minutely different, otherwise there would be no differences in density and therefore no reason for convection cells to form. In a liquid where convection cells exist (ie, a liquid being heated in a boiler), agitation WILL help. The evidence isnt just anecdotal, its literally a physical principle.

Here is a quote from a research paper titled "the effects of agitation on convective heat transfer" -
"A parametric study has been done to explore the effects of agitator frequency (f), amplitude (A) and agitation velocity (2πAf) on heat transfer and flow mechanism. The heat transfer coefficient increases with the increase in frequency and amplitude. At a fixed agitation velocity, heat transfer coefficient is mainly governed by the agitation velocity irrespective of the value of amplitude or frequency."
Last edited by Metalking00 on Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by bcook608 »

Metalking00 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:23 pm Convection ovens have lower temps and shorter cooking times than a conventional oven for the same recipe because they are constantly being agitated by a fan.

The fact that convection currents exist in a liquid that is being heated is actual proof that there ARE different temperatures inside a boiler, even if only minutely different, otherwise there would be no differences in density and therefore no reason for convection cells to form. In a liquid where convection cells exist (ie, a liquid being heated in a boiler), agitation WILL help. The evidence isnt just anecdotal, its literally a physical principle.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thought of convection ovens as an example of why an agitator would be beneficial.

Especially in my tall boiler (2 kegs welded together) where there will be a severe temperature gradient. I plan to find a way to add an agitator to my boiler, but I don't have the slightest idea where to start when it comes to keeping it vapor tight...
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Re: Novice rules

Post by HDNB »

Windy City wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:52 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:40 pm Stirring the pot does not make it boil better or faster or sooner.
This might be true in a immersion element or direct fire (not to say it wouldn’t help) but I know for a fact that it is completely false in a jacketed still. In a jacketed still you get much better heat transfer with a mixer. It truly shines and is needed when distilling on the grain at 2 1/2 to 3 pounds a gallon.
i can guarantee exactly that after a few hundred runs in a jacketed still.
Anybody reading this for tech info should note too, that you really want your steam jacket below the liquid line at all times during a run...or be really good at cleaning metal
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by HDNB »

bcook608 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:27 pm
Metalking00 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:23 pm Convection ovens have lower temps and shorter cooking times than a conventional oven for the same recipe because they are constantly being agitated by a fan.

The fact that convection currents exist in a liquid that is being heated is actual proof that there ARE different temperatures inside a boiler, even if only minutely different, otherwise there would be no differences in density and therefore no reason for convection cells to form. In a liquid where convection cells exist (ie, a liquid being heated in a boiler), agitation WILL help. The evidence isnt just anecdotal, its literally a physical principle.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thought of convection ovens as an example of why an agitator would be beneficial.

Especially in my tall boiler (2 kegs welded together) where there will be a severe temperature gradient. I plan to find a way to add an agitator to my boiler, but I don't have the slightest idea where to start when it comes to keeping it vapor tight...
not as much of a problem as you may think; there's no pressure, so i use a food safe grease in the bearing and then a couple teflon washers/bushings and some teflon tape packing. have had zero leakage in like 5 years of operation, vapour up or grease down.
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by bcook608 »

HDNB wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:35 pm
bcook608 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:27 pm
Metalking00 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:23 pm Convection ovens have lower temps and shorter cooking times than a conventional oven for the same recipe because they are constantly being agitated by a fan.

The fact that convection currents exist in a liquid that is being heated is actual proof that there ARE different temperatures inside a boiler, even if only minutely different, otherwise there would be no differences in density and therefore no reason for convection cells to form. In a liquid where convection cells exist (ie, a liquid being heated in a boiler), agitation WILL help. The evidence isnt just anecdotal, its literally a physical principle.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thought of convection ovens as an example of why an agitator would be beneficial.

Especially in my tall boiler (2 kegs welded together) where there will be a severe temperature gradient. I plan to find a way to add an agitator to my boiler, but I don't have the slightest idea where to start when it comes to keeping it vapor tight...
not as much of a problem as you may think; there's no pressure, so i use a food safe grease in the bearing and then a couple teflon washers/bushings and some teflon tape packing. have had zero leakage in like 5 years of operation, vapour up or grease down.
Do you have a thread by chance so I can see what you're referring to? I'm more of a visual person.
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by Demy »

I have a small boiler in a jacket, the internal boiler can be safely filled with a maximum of 20-22 liters ... I have never had these problems, I have a sight glass in the lid and I see the whole charge boiling .. It could depend on the size I suppose?
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Re: Mixers and Agitators

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Thread may have started out rough, but it's providing some light for some it sounds. Got my interest peaked. At what point will agitation make a difference (volume related, I assume?) and in some types more than others? (Jacketed stills, how about for propane heated still, electric? )

When you stir your mash, it cools down quicker, but that's because it's open to the atmosphere, yet the principal remains the same, does it not? Stirring your wash as it heats, would cause the rest of the still; empty space, downstream items, to heat up quicker, but take the wash slightly longer? The main goal then for agitation during your run, being to reduce smearing by encouraging equal heat, across the liquid?

What level of agitation we talking? I mean, in theory you could just distill ontop of a washing or dryer machine on tumble and get some agitation that way.
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