Malted Rye and oat whiskey

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Ben
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Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

12 gallon batch (keg charge)

24lbs Proximity malted rye
2 lbs 6 oz raw oat, rolled
10 oz rice hulls
6 oz chocolate wheat malt
6 oz honey malt
6 oz melanoiden malt

Preheat mash tun
Mill grains (i used a roller mill, gapped to a credit card)
Add 20 qts water at 120, add grains, rest 30 mins (target temp 110-115) this is protein rest to make the rye more manageable.
add 24 qts water at 188, Sacch rest. Shooting for 145-148 start temp. Rest 90 mins or until starch test passes.
Mash out with 26 qts at 203, I fly sparge.

Starting gravity should be around 1.060. Efficiency came up on this batch netting me 1.065.

Give this a brief boil if you want to kill anything that might be left in the grain. I boil first runnings for around an hour, using just enough runnings ot ensure my element is covered. Helps build up a little caramel flavor. Boil the rest for 10 mins.

Ferment on so4 cake to help build up some fruity esters.
Last edited by Ben on Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
:)
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by still_stirrin »

Ben wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:30 am… Add 20 qts water at 120, add grains, rest 30 mins (target temp 110-115) this is protein rest to make the rye more manageable.
Right temperature. But it’s really a “glucan” rest, which is important for a high rye mash. A protein rest would be 115*F to 125*F, when you start to reduce the proteins that can cause a “cloudy beer”. This rest step is key for a high wheat mash. Of note, the protein step does help a rye mash, but the glucan rest is what helps reduce the “gluey” nature of rye.
Ben wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:30 am… Add 24 qts water at 188, Sacch rest. Shooting for 145-148 start temp. Rest 90 mins or until starch test passes.
I hope you didn’t overshoot your saccharification temperature with the 188*F infusion. But if you didn’t, then great. For a rye beer, I would tend to shoot a little lower and favor more water for the infusion so the mash was more fluid (than syrup).
Ben wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:30 am… Mash out with 26 qts at 203, I fly sparge.
This sounds like fun … trying to squeeze out the “syrup” from this much rye malt. I’ve lautered a high rye beer before and it is A LOT OF WORK. The runoff is sooooo slow and sticky that it keeps plugging my drain grid and outlet.
Ben wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:30 am… Starting gravity should be around 1.060. Efficiency came up on this batch netting me 1.065.
If you measured OG=1.065, then you did good. But bear in mind that the glucans in the wort can add “density error” because of the high viscosity. Regardless, the product should turn out nice.

That much rye malt (percentage of the mash) sure creates it’s challenges, especially when you lauter (and ferment off-the-grain). But congratulations on doing something that many, if not most, homebrewers would stay far away from. :thumbup:
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by NormandieStill »

That sounds super tasty, and I'll be watching this space to see what think of it. I don't see the oats though... ;-)
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

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still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:48 am
If you measured OG=1.065, then you did good. But bear in mind that the glucans in the wort can add “density error” because of the high viscosity. Regardless, the product should turn out nice.

That much rye malt (percentage of the mash) sure creates it’s challenges, especially when you lauter (and ferment off-the-grain). But congratulations on doing something that many, if not most, homebrewers would stay far away from. :thumbup:
ss
Refractometer and water top agreed on the 1.065 number. It does seem very high though. I was unaware of the glucans effect on reading.

Part of the reason for trying this was to see if I could do it. The run off was a little slow, but with the glucan rest and the rice hulls it went fine. I let runoff go in one vessel while I was boiling down in my BK. I have been homebrewing for 14 or so years, so I am equipped (mentally and in stainless) to deal with it. I also recently picked up one of the 20 gallon SS brewtech infuSsion mash tuns. I think the large false bottom helps with the slow sparging grains.

I could not imagine squeezing rye... Steam infusion would be alright. I am excited to get this run. I think its going to be a flavor bomb. I am going to double pot still this, rather than use my lazy 2 plate column. Just have to go get another bag of rye so I can make enough for 3 runs :)
Last edited by Ben on Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:59 pm That sounds super tasty, and I'll be watching this space to see what think of it. I don't see the oats though... ;-)
FFS. I will correct the recipe. It is supposed to be raw oat not raw barley. Thanks for the catch!

I typed this in a haze I guess.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by NormandieStill »

Ha ha.

Also quite interested in the honey + melanoidin. I made HBB and used melano instead of Honey malt because I just can't get it here (Not strictly true, but I just wasn't prepared to pay for 25kg and shipping from the one company that was importing it.). I had asked in the HBB thread, but seeing as you are using both... how do they compare? Would you say they were similar or is the difference quite remarkable?
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by rubberduck71 »

I've read here on HD site that oats add a good 'mouth feel' to your end product, even at just a small % of the mash bill.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

That's the goal on the oats.

Melanoidin "should" accentuate the malt flavor, its commonly used in irish red style ales. Not sure how the honey malt is going to behave in this. It should be subtle. Since rye is known for baking spice character I am hopeful it will match nicely.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:48 am
Ben wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:30 am… Add 24 qts water at 188, Sacch rest. Shooting for 145-148 start temp. Rest 90 mins or until starch test passes.
I hope you didn’t overshoot your saccharification temperature with the 188*F infusion. But if you didn’t, then great. For a rye beer, I would tend to shoot a little lower and favor more water for the infusion so the mash was more fluid (than syrup).
I was thinking about this, and why in my head at least it isn't an issue. I think if someone was just dumping water in they could have some problems. I move water with a march pump, and its usually throttled back at the ball valve, my mash tun has a water inlet at the top so there isn't much heat loss during water transfer. I transfer about a third, pull the lid, stir vigorously replace, repeat. None of my temp changes happen quickly. I have put a lot of effort into tuning beersmith as well, I don't have issues hitting temps much these days. I am patient with things. Additionally, I have a herms setup, so if I did miss it's an easy correct. But this is good word to new brewers, don't add all that water in one big transfer, go a bit at a time, stir and check the temp change periodically. Try not to shock your enzymes to death.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

I ended up running this about a week ago. I stripped in pot mode, then chose to run 2 perforated plates on a 4" column, there were some things coming through I didn't love and wanted to give myself a little more control. I mixed in about 30% (by total alcohol content) all grain bourbon feints to help fill the still and stretch the run a bit. Off the spout it was a different experience, early hearts deep into the tails smelled and tasted overwhelmingly like petrichor (scent of rain), sweetness was balanced and it was pretty amazing. I decided to let it sit a while, I was concerned about the initial flavor change. The quantity of "rain flavored white" I had consumed had probably skewed my judgement. It was a very enjoyable run. Off the still average abv is approximately 176 proof.

I let the batch sit uncovered overnight and took it in for blending the next evening. It was a real challenge, this stuff has a lot of aggressive flavors. The petrichor remains, but the slight bitterness of rye and the herbal qualities it is known for really came forward. I spent about an hour tasting each sample (approximately 9 jars after heads and tales were removed) making notes, then set it aside again. There are many flavors I am not used to in this, mouthfeel ranging from salted caramel to Jack Daniels. So again, I failed and set it aside to give it some more time, let my pallet relax and think over the flavors a bit.

Last night I was able to make my final cut selection. I still love the smell of rain, but there is more on the nose: it has some of the traditional rye notes: wet alfalfa hay, slight spice character, rounded ethanol, plus hot grain in the mash tun. On the tongue it hits, coats and starts to build a bit of sweetness, you are expecting a Carmel bomb, then before the sweetness comes that almost instantly vanishes and turns to the spicy, bold, herbal rye, with a slightly bitter, jagged, long lasting finish, the entire experience has a base flavor of malted grain. It really dances around on your tongue.

I think I will do another batch of this, I have a virgin 20l Balcones barrel sitting in a corner, I have been saving it for something special. I will age around 60% to bring in a little oak sweetness, then add more water as a top off if the finish bitterness is still strong in 5-6 months. I don't want to overdo the barrel sweetness on this, I like that it is a bit dry, and balanced and has a spectrum. I will be cautious until the new whiskey edge comes off.

All in all a winner, a truly unique experience that you can only have as a distiller, and some outlying, rare traits. It is also by far the most challenging whiskey I have made, I think it is going to be a beautifully complex spirit in a year or so on new oak.

If I was to change anything in it I might swap 10% of the rye for wheat, just to bring in a little balance but that's something for another time and I really dig the intensity.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

Sorry the flavor descriptors aren't better. This stuff is really intense, and describing flavor is not so easy!
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

Mashed this in again yesterday. Somehow I ran out of melanoidin and didn't notice until I already had the rye ground and water heating so I replaced it with viking cookie malt (not really a replacement, just something to fill the void). I would not voluntarily change this recipe...

Rested at 117 for 20 mins
mashed in at 143, dropped to 142 after 90 mins.
Chilled to 72°, pitched on an S04 based cake with a nice lacto infection.

Something changed, beer gods were not smiling. This was a pain this time, very stuck mashes. I ended up batch sparging and efficiency tanked and ended up with 12 gallons at 1.057. I will increase the glucan rest back to 30mins next time, maybe drop the temp by 2°. Ah well, can't go perfect every time or it wouldn't be a challenge!
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Oatmeal »

As someone whose fermentation skills lean more towards the rudimentary, I appreciate the time you take to post your recipes and processes. Thanks!
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Great read, thanks for sharing! My buddy is a beer brewer, so it's always nice to see distillers with some brewing background give their 2 cents, helps me understand better where he is coming from on things.

I made a Rye whiskey late last year and am moving on ordering the grains for another batch. Jumped up 50% in price sadly. Anyways mine was 65% Rye, and the rest a mixture of wheat/barley. It has been on oak for a good while and the samples I take are quite nice. I had an hour Gluten/Protein rest at 110, then at 155 added wheat, and Alpha Amalyse, then SeBAmyl when it cooled down to 140, pitched 10g of FermPro040 at 90 degrees.

I enjoy the lower temp ranges, compared to anything with corn in it. With the low temp rest and the enzymes I added, I did not experience anything unusual, for all the talk about high-rye being a PITA to work with.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

After 3 months on oak, a second use 12l barrel (supposed to be 10, holds 12), this has changed pretty dramatically. It is real heavy on rye spice... It's like intensely herbal Gin on the initial hit. It comes around with cotton candy or Pez in the middle, then finishes much like a bourbon with vanilla and a little oak.

Needs more barrel time, hopefully some of the herbal flavors will back down, it needs to round out.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by OtisT »

Great thread Ben. Following with interest. Otis
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Following along. It is fun to use some chocolate or caramel malts in the mix just for fun. I need to keep more accurate records so I can duplicate my good batches.
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Re: Malted Rye and oat whiskey

Post by Ben »

A month ago I drew a bottle of this off (roughly 5 months old), added 2 more gallons & barrel proof and moved into a virgin 5 gallon Balcones barrel (I needed the used barrel for Irish Whisky). The rye barrel now lives in a space that will be between 55 and 70°f for the next 4 or so months.

Regarding on the bottle that I pulled aside:

This wants to be proofed down to the mid 40's. I usually prefer my bourbons in the 50-55 abv range, this is much too intense and attacks the senses.

At ≈ 90 proof:

On the nose: The first whiff is pure Floral notes, roses and lilac, second sniff brings out earthy undertones and gin herbs, petrichor.
On the palate: Thick and honey like, malted rye grain on the front, it slowly gives way to cotton candy and a slight cherry cough syrup note, finish is red-wine dry and lingers, eventually developing into a bubble gum ester thing on the sides of the tongue.

Needs more barrel time. This will get added back as a top off to the 5 gallon. Needs more barrel presence and a little more sweetness at the end to knock off some of the dry tongue sensation.

Balance has improved immensely, its much more balanced, a lot less of the herbal intensity. It's a good direction but needs more patience.
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