Blackberry brandy questions

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Hi all,

Have a few questions regarding a blackberry (sort of brandy) I'm about to start. Despite what looked like a banner year, we got hit with torrential rains this past weekend, which effectively wiped out the remaining blackberry crop. I've collected about 25lbs of berries, which after pressing amounted to roughly 3.5 gal of juice.

1. Pasteurization vs Campden? The berries and juice were pretty clean but I'm a bit worried about bugs, fungus, mold etc given the conditions the fruit was picked and processed in. I've frozen the extracted juice and remaining pulp, and am tempted to jump straight to fermentation without treatment but worried about the risk/reward. I hate Campden tabs and have never heat pasteurized before, any thoughts on preferred process that will keep freshest fruit flavors intact?

2. Maceration vs ferment: Because of the low volume of juice, several have suggested just macerating everything and running through pot still. I was planning to macerate pulp with some fresh berries using high proof neutral grain spirit, then add to low wines, proof down for low spirit run in pot still. Any thoughts on one vs the other?

3. Have a 1/2 gal of Blackberry syrup canned a few years ago that needs to be used. Figured to add to the ferment to bump up the sugars and abv, any issues here? Because it was reduced and heavily sugared seems beneficial. Any thing to be aware of here?

4. PH: Apparently BB's are very acidic. Planning to ferment with EC-118 which should be fine, but curious if adding calcium carbonate should be considered?

Thanks!
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by elbono »

Here in middle TN just as they were starting to ripen it got really hot and really dry. All the blackberries shriveled up.

Supposedly wild blackberries are sweeter and have more flavor than domesticated ones. Which are you working with? If wild ones, do we get any pictures of your shredded hands and arms?

Maybe I'll get a crop next year, bookmarked this thread for future reference.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 9677
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Tater »

Ratbastrd wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:47 am Hi all,

Have a few questions regarding a blackberry (sort of brandy) I'm about to start. Despite what looked like a banner year, we got hit with torrential rains this past weekend, which effectively wiped out the remaining blackberry crop. I've collected about 25lbs of berries, which after pressing amounted to roughly 3.5 gal of juice.

1. Pasteurization vs Campden? The berries and juice were pretty clean but I'm a bit worried about bugs, fungus, mold etc given the conditions the fruit was picked and processed in. I've frozen the extracted juice and remaining pulp, and am tempted to jump straight to fermentation without treatment but worried about the risk/reward. I hate Campden tabs and have never heat pasteurized before, any thoughts on preferred process that will keep freshest fruit flavors intact?

2. Maceration vs ferment: Because of the low volume of juice, several have suggested just macerating everything and running through pot still. I was planning to macerate pulp with some fresh berries using high proof neutral grain spirit, then add to low wines, proof down for low spirit run in pot still. Any thoughts on one vs the other?

3. Have a 1/2 gal of Blackberry syrup canned a few years ago that needs to be used. Figured to add to the ferment to bump up the sugars and abv, any issues here? Because it was reduced and heavily sugared seems beneficial. Any thing to be aware of here?

4. PH: Apparently BB's are very acidic. Planning to ferment with EC-118 which should be fine, but curious if adding calcium carbonate should be considered?

Thanks!
I freeze and go straight to ferment myself never had any problems doing that' Id also ferment it all and use syrup to flavor finale product. good luck however ya do it.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Demy »

My advice: ferment the blackberries without pasteurizing and without sulphites, save some juice (there is a post of mine on how to make a juice clarification) and add it after distilling the fruits. You can add the syrup to the fermenter. You will be satisfied.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Demy »

Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

elbono wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:21 pm Here in middle TN just as they were starting to ripen it got really hot and really dry. All the blackberries shriveled up.

Supposedly wild blackberries are sweeter and have more flavor than domesticated ones. Which are you working with? If wild ones, do we get any pictures of your shredded hands and arms?

Maybe I'll get a crop next year, bookmarked this thread for future reference.
Working with wild BB's. They are rather dry this year, given the drought we are going through. The juice is more like blood then juice, quite thick and viscous.

Fortunately I have a good system for picking. Leather gloves, tall farm boots and duck tape up the arms above the gloves. I use hand shears and cut whole clusters vs trying to pick berry by berry. I clean out majority of stem and leaf and crush whole cluster, similar to grape for wine. Its messy and my hands are purple but worth it.
User avatar
contrahead
Trainee
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:43 pm
Location: Southwest

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by contrahead »

1. Pasteurization vs Campden?
2. Maceration vs ferment ?
3. Blackberry syrup ?
4. EC-118 ?

I'll attack the questions in reverse order.

4. EC-118 is an excellent yeast that drives fermentation sometimes when other yeast won't. It produces one of the highest ABV's of any domestic yeast, and is a yeast intended to make a dry Champagne. However to reach that high ABV, EC-118 eats all the sugars; leaving a DRY / not sweet, result. Lalvin sells a long list of yeast types though; my advice would be to use a yeast variety that was not so voracious, like Lalvin 71B-1122 for example. 71B has worked well for me, perhaps some of the others might have as well.

3. Hell yeah. Like Tater said; toss that syrup in there.

2. Ferment with seeds, skins and all. Perhaps use pectin. Any remaining solids can be strained out later before distillation, or not (if you are using a pot still or boiler pot driven by external heat source). Personally, I would not distill; because we are talking about blackberries. I would ferment everything and attempt to dehydrate it into a tart, tangy and sweet syrup. Distillation would only stomp out or annihilate the blackberry character. Possibly, either do what Demy said and save some syrup out to flavor with, or do what Bushman did in his Blackberry liqueur thread.

1. Avoid potassium versions of Campden tablets or use only a fraction of what might be recommended. I've used sodium metabisulfide very successfully over the years, but when used in very moderate amounts. When I bring home fresh fruit to ferment, I like to set up a rinsing station; to sanitize and disinfect the fruit. A chain of buckets, some with chemicals, some with pure water. It may upset some hobbyist, but I like to put a few drops of Clorox bleach in the 1st bucket of water. The spiders and other nasties then come crawling out. Stems, leaves and other foreign objects are picked out. The next bucket or pail usually contains a weak sodium bisulfide, sterilization solution. The last rinse is always in warm, fresh and clean water. I see no reason to add further sulfides to the ferment.
b_porchp (11).jpg
bgrape104.jpg
Omnia mea mecum porto
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Okay, I can officially say this was the dumbest idea I've come up with since I started this hobby. BB's are a MESS! They stain virtually everything, even stainless steel (if there is alcohol in the mix).

Now have 6 gallons of juice total, 3 gals with skins macerating in 3L of Kingclear and another 3 gals (pasteurized) added of .5L blackberry flower honey & Lalvin D47.

Something I read on the homebrewing forum has me thinking and I'm going to experiment with. Apparently many cider makers have found that running ferments to 1.00 or lower wipes out the fruit flavors, suggested to take it down to 1.02+ to keep the flavors present. Will report back on this.

PS: Held over 1lb of best fruit. Frozen and will macerate the final product in the remaining fruit, once completed.
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1046
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Steve Broady »

Ratbastrd wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:31 am Apparently many cider makers have found that running ferments to 1.00 or lower wipes out the fruit flavors, suggested to take it down to 1.02+ to keep the flavors present. Will report back on this.
I’m very curious to hear how this works in terms of distillation. My first thought when reading that is that we expect fruit to taste sweet, so we need some residual sugar in a cider to push that button. But since sugar doesn’t carry over into a spirit, it might not make any difference. I could absolutely be 100% wrong on that, of course. Which is why I’m looking forward to hearing what you find out.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Dougmatt »

contrahead wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:14 am
It may upset some hobbyist, but I like to put a few drops of Clorox bleach in the 1st bucket of water. The spiders…
No way bleach is getting near my wine! I’d rather have spider protein in my wine than bleach.

Kmeta is what I (and most commercial wineries) use to sanitize Prior to crush.

I shivered when I saw you still,use bleach. A lot of wine makers used bleach as a sanitizer years ago (including me). Too many issues to continue and kmeta is much safer. I use star San in some cases, but kmeta remains my preference. Do your research. Even in your process, residual bleach is getting through. Not sure I would continue with that plan…. In the end the choice is yours, but in my opinion, bleach has no place in wine production.

Edit: having seen this topic on wine making forums, I want to reiterate—- the choice is yours —— bleach was removed from all my processes years ago, but I know people who still use it (and I won’t drink their wine :shh: …. You have to be the judge: https://www.poison.org/articles/what-is-bleach)
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Dougmatt wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:14 pm Kmeta is what I (and most commercial wineries) use to sanitize Prior to crush.

I shivered when I saw you still,use bleach. A lot of wine makers used bleach as a sanitizer years ago (including me). Too many issues to continue and kmeta is much safer. I use star San in some cases, but kmeta remains my preference. Do your research. Even in your process, residual bleach is getting through. Not sure I would continue with that plan…. In the end the choice is yours, but in my opinion, bleach has no place in wine production.
Can you give me an examples of where you would use star san vs kmeta. I use star san to sanitize my equipment but hadn't considered it for cleaning fruit prior to crushing. thanks
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ben »

Star san at the recommended dilution is edible (I think I remember a press conference where the founder drank a glass full... can't taste very good). As it is further diluted and brakes down it releases phosphates which are a yeast nutrient. Seems like winner for surface sanitization of fruit, I wouldn't soak it but certainly fine for rinsing.

K-meta is potassium (K) metabisulfite (meta), really not ideal for distilling but if you have adequate copper in your still's vapor path will be ok.

Bleach seems silly, chlorine in the ferment process becomes chlorophenol (you know it, the active ingredient in Chloraseptic that makes your throat numb). Bleach should be used as a cleaning agent, not a sanitizer, and even then in the world of fermentation only when things get really desperate, followed by very thorough rinsing and sanitization.
:)
User avatar
contrahead
Trainee
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:43 pm
Location: Southwest

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by contrahead »

Dougmatt wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:14 pm
but kmeta remains my preference. Do your research. Even in your process, residual bleach is getting through.
I've done a little research. That is why I predicated my statement with the understanding that certain hobbyist might disagree or become hysterical at the notion of using any Clorox, whatsoever. I am not the slightest bit concerned about the safety of its use, in the minute quantities that I employ it. And I am satisfied that none has made it past the last bucket of water.

Since there are now, presumably safer disinfectants to use for craft of wine-making, I won't advocate for using something as old fashioned as bleach. I know what the industry's present consensus would be, and I don't need to ask for any Johnny-come-lately opinions on the subject. However it amuses me when someone practically likens Clorox to something mysterious and radioactive.

I gather that your “kmeta” is the same thing as a potassium metabisulfite / Campden tablet? I don't trust potassium metabisulfite much; for me it has been unpredictable. I prefer sodium metabisulfite, but was out of Na2S2O5 just recently. So my second pail contained a potassium Campden tablet solution (which by the way should absorb free chlorine).

There are about 5 or 6 ways to make sodium hypochlorite; the most common large-scale industrial method is called the “Hooker process”. Where sodium hypochlorite (NaClO) and salt (sodium chloride or NaCl) are the two products produced by electrolysis. In essence, chlorine (Cl) is passed through a cold and diluted sodium hydroxide (NaOH) solution.

It is odd, but chlorine and lye (sodium hydroxide) themselves, are also produced by electrolysis; upon brine (salt water). All these entities except salt water are “poisonous”. Table salt itself, is a combination of two of the most toxic elements of the Periodic Table. Chlorine was the deadliest gas used on the battlefields of WWI; yet we treat swimming pools and municipal drinking water supplies – with it.
Lye is deadly poisonous and the most caustic substance mentioned above; yet lye is or has been used directly to produce: pretzels, bagels, ramen noodles, Chinese century eggs, canned mandarin oranges, Maraschino cherries, olives, Nordic lutefisk, masa, tortillas, hominy and grits. Sodium caseinate (which is made by treating the casein milk protein with -lye) is used in coffee creamer, cheese, ice cream, cheese-flavored snacks, margarine, cereal bars, processed meats, chocolate and bread.

Somehow somebody managed to rinse all that nasty, bad-ass poison away, and out of those commercial foods. Just as I rinsed what little was there, out of my grapes. But I am not here to argue for some sort of lost cause.
Omnia mea mecum porto
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Dougmatt »

contrahead wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:02 am
it amuses me when someone practically likens Clorox to something mysterious and radioactive.

I gather that your “kmeta” is the same thing as a potassium metabisulfite / Campden tablet? I don't trust potassium metabisulfite much; for me it has been unpredictable. I prefer sodium metabisulfite, but was out of Na2S2O5 just recently. So my second pail contained a potassium Campden tablet solution (which by the way should absorb free chlorine).
I missed the second pail, which yes should help scavenge the chlorine depending on free amounts of each of course. I personally use potassium over sodium as I feel sodium affects flavor, and don’t use Camden tablets rather the dry chemical form. Personally I’ve Never had an issue in hundreds of fruit ferments, but both work. Interested in your experience around why k (potassium) - metabisufite is unreliable versus sodium.

I am not “hysterical” nor likening Clorox to mysterious or radioactive. I still have it in my house unlike others, as it has uses. I simply called it what it is. Poison.. then said I don’t use it anymore In wine making (I used to just like many of us did), and suggested it was your choice, but be sure you research make and your own informed decision which sounds like you have. Perhaps i came across over stated, but at the same time I want to ensure newbies to fruit ferments don’t start dunking things in bleach.

Using bleach in something designed to be consumed is generally a bad idea.
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Dougmatt wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:21 pm I personally use potassium over sodium as I feel sodium affects flavor, and don’t use Camden tablets rather the dry chemical form. Personally I’ve Never had an issue in hundreds of fruit ferments, but both work.
Can you point me to a the specific product you use? I would like to learn more about this.
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1737
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by NormandieStill »

Dougmatt wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:21 pm Using bleach in something designed to be consumed is generally a bad idea.
Not sure of the rules elsewhere in the world, but if you've ever eaten raw veg in a restaurant in France then it was washed in a weak bleach solution. As with most poisons it's all in the dosing.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17987
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Bushman »

Here is my blackberry liqueur recipe. I have gotten a lot of good feedback by members.
viewtopic.php?t=67443
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Bushman wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:44 am Here is my blackberry liqueur recipe. I have gotten a lot of good feedback by members.
viewtopic.php?t=67443
Thanks, I saw that. Out of curiosity, why do you not press the remaining pulp?
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17987
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Bushman »

I have a book HOMEMADE Liqueurs and Infused Spirits by Andrew Schloss. He is a well known author, teacher, food developer, and past president of International Association of Culinary Professionals. I took a raspberry recipe in the book and substituted blackberries tweaking the original recipe slightly. On most of his recipes in the book he suggests not squeezing. It is for clearer results. By squeezing you may get a couple more mouthfuls of liquid, but you’ll also wind up with some cloudiness from small particles.
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Dougmatt »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:37 am
Dougmatt wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:21 pm Using bleach in something designed to be consumed is generally a bad idea.
Not sure of the rules elsewhere in the world, but if you've ever eaten raw veg in a restaurant in France then it was washed in a weak bleach solution. As with most poisons it's all in the dosing.
I’ve been fortunate to travel all over the world including many trips to France. I have had food poisoning 3 times. 2 of those were in Paris (other was in rural china). I now treat France like a third world country when eating so try to never eat raw food as once I believe I got it from a salad, (the other was an oyster in a Michelin 2* restaurant I believe). I love French food, but no longer worth the risk.

Based on your comment, I’m thinking the salad issue could have simply been too much bleach :wtf: …. These were my symptoms and they match bleach ingestion poisoning:

Swelling of the throat
Stomach pain
vomiting
blood in the stools

Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/chlor ... g#symptoms
Ratbastrd wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:22 am Can you point me to a the specific product you use? I would like to learn more about this.
Here’s an example: https://labelpeelers.com/wine-making/ad ... Y4QAvD_BwE

Edit: ok. Last post on bleach from me as it’s off topic. Apologies.
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Steve Broady wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:48 pm I’m very curious to hear how this works in terms of distillation. My first thought when reading that is that we expect fruit to taste sweet, so we need some residual sugar in a cider to push that button. But since sugar doesn’t carry over into a spirit, it might not make any difference. I could absolutely be 100% wrong on that, of course. Which is why I’m looking forward to hearing what you find out.
Well the ferment is stuck at 1.014, I think the pH might be off or not enough sugar. Going to test tonight. It's very wine like but still sweet, may try to reinoculate with 118 if i can't figure it out.

In general, I think there is probably something to this idea. Purely from a smell perspective, I've got two other ferments that finished at 1.00 neither have much apple smell left to them.
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Dougmatt »

Hmm. D47 is a good white wine / mead yeast. Guess you went with that due to the honey?

I’ve had D47 stick on me a few times and generally given up on using it. That said I’ve gotten most of them to finish (but EC1118 is always an option ). Usually its temperature or ph. It likes a colder ferment I believe, below 70F. But it’s finicky at the low end so if it’s cold, try heating it up 10 degrees and see if it restarts.

If its not that, then what’s your ph? I would guess low based on what you added, but that’s a guess. Could try bumping it up if it’s at or below 3.2 or so by adding potassium bicarbonate.

Are there any off smells or anything else of note?
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by NZChris »

Ratbastrd wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:39 pm [Well the ferment is stuck at 1.014, I think the pH might be off or not enough sugar. Going to test tonight. It's very wine like but still sweet, may try to reinoculate with 118 if i can't figure it out.
A lack of sugar is never the problem with a stuck ferment. Too much sugar to start with is more likely, what was your OG?

What is the temperature? is it suitable for your choice of yeast?

If you can, check the pH before you throw random ingredients at it.

If you run it as it is, you will get less alcohol than if it ferments right out, but the flavor will be more intense.
If it's too intense for you, (which is extremely unlikely), you can dilute it with neutral.
Ratbastrd
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:13 am

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Ratbastrd »

Starting OG 1.065, temp is 68' pretty constant as it is in a backroom of house.

Not sure of pH, but suspect this might be the culprit. That or the fact I used honey to add sugar from the onset. It was a slow ferment from beginning.

I've got the rest of the BB's macerating in neutral spirit, probably going to just combine it all, proof down to 30% and run combined spirit run. The BB wine is not the best smelling ferment I've ever done. This whole project really turned me off on BB's. They are messy, not much sugar, apparently not much flavor in finished product (time will tell).

Totally off topic, but I also fermented 14 gallons of fresh pressed apple juice (Honeycrisp & Ark black), tossed in about 1.5 gal of frozen apples wife forgot was in freezer. Pitched with Lalvin d47 for the first time. Best smelling ferment EVER! Smells like baked apple pie in the back room. Seriously good stuff, going to have to try this again next year.
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Blackberry brandy questions

Post by Dougmatt »

On your ferment and Looking at the number barring off smells it sounds like PH. Do you have a way to test? L

Apples are great fermenters. What’s the plan with them? Brandy, hard cider or wine? I’m about to do my first try at an apple pie with some nuetral. Wondering if some apple brandy would make a difference. Generally I don’t like apple cider, but the family is requesting it this year.
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
Post Reply