Speed, smearing & plated columns

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:34 am Ahah, said the blind man!
I was working under the belief that the various compounds boil off at different discreet temps and work their way up the column, and that by keeping the temp lower longer, I would capture MORE (of the total percentage of the specific compounds I wanted, from the combined abv). And that the plates would then help separate those compounds for me, allowing me to cut fairly cleanly those compounds I wanted from those I don't.
The plates simply cant do the job they are meant to do while you are trying to run the still by temperature. Reassess the way your trying to run the still and try all the plates again......Im sure you will get a much better result using all of them.
This link will also help you understand the basic principles of why thermometer gazing is useless in trying to run a still.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Setsumi »

Ratbastrd wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:34 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:45 pm Because everything is mixed in the boiler, you don’t boil the 170 deg component, then the 175, then the 180. It doesn’t work that way. You boil a mix of those components, making your vapor a mix. If it worked by boiling point a pot still could make very pure products. It doesn’t and they can’t.
Ahah, said the blind man!

I was working under the belief that the various compounds boil off at different discreet temps and work their way up the column, and that by keeping the temp lower longer, I would capture MORE (of the total percentage of the specific compounds I wanted, from the combined abv). And that the plates would then help separate those compounds for me, allowing me to cut fairly cleanly those compounds I wanted from those I don't.

Also, is there water vapor (albeit small) entering the mix at temps lower then 212f?

I ask the later because it is the smell of the wash after I've fully completed my run, that I am smell mid to later part of the way through what I would consider the hearts. I'm trying to figure out if that smell is oils, water or some remnant of the yeast that I am picking up. It is very "tailsy" smell, like old wet/moldy books which comes and goes, but gets stronger as the run progresses. Eliminating that smell, and capturing more of the faint fruit elements mixed in with the heads that I am working towards.
Have you ever heard of partial pressure, or maybe the ideal gas law? Try reading Rault's law.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Sadly no but I will add it to my reading. I'm increasingly thinking I'm working on the wrong problem.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:24 pm
Ratbastrd wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:34 am Ahah, said the blind man!
I was working under the belief that the various compounds boil off at different discreet temps and work their way up the column, and that by keeping the temp lower longer, I would capture MORE (of the total percentage of the specific compounds I wanted, from the combined abv). And that the plates would then help separate those compounds for me, allowing me to cut fairly cleanly those compounds I wanted from those I don't.
The plates simply cant do the job they are meant to do while you are trying to run the still by temperature. Reassess the way your trying to run the still and try all the plates again......Im sure you will get a much better result using all of them.
This link will also help you understand the basic principles of why thermometer gazing is useless in trying to run a still.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by bluc »

Interesting my findings are the opposite to the original post. I spent couple years making rum with a potstill. I had to cut harder and age for a lot longer to get something drinkable.
Through plates I dont mind the spirit even un aged....on a 200l ferment I average 2l more then same thing on a potstill....I think a plater cleans spirit up way better then a pot even when running lw.... Through plates I find the fractions are much more compressed also.

I run collection on a 4", 2-2.5l/h about same take off as a 2" pot but do one and done.....
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Now that you have become addicted to watching a thermometer its probably best to remove it all together ..or tape over the face.....otherwise you will keep looking at it and that will just add to your confusion.
Spend a year "thermomerterless" and you will learn a whole heap about running a still.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by bluefish_dist »

bluc wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:33 am Interesting my findings are the opposite to the original post. I spent couple years making rum with a potstill. I had to cut harder and age for a lot longer to get something drinkable.
Through plates I dont mind the spirit even un aged....on a 200l ferment I average 2l more then same thing on a potstill....I think a plater cleans spirit up way better then a pot even when running lw.... Through plates I find the fractions are much more compressed also.

I run collection on a 4", 2-2.5l/h about same take off as a 2" pot but do one and done.....
You are correct that plates can provide much better separation. But going back to an earlier post, my theory is flavor is an impurity, thus a pot still can pass more flavor as it’s less pure (poor separation). This is what pointed me to my theory on match the number of plates to what you want out vs detuning a bunch of plates. If you want a nice white, more plates, barrel aged for years, less plates.

I don’t agree that a thermometer is useless, I found it integral to how I made spirits. Problem is many use them to do something that they don’t do. All a thermometer does at the still head is tell you the abv of your output. It doesn’t tell you what components are present, when to make cuts, just what’s your abv. For me that was important as it let me adjust reflux to keep my output at the abv I wanted. Temp going up, I was getting too much tails up the column and needed more reflux or less power. Temp going down, too much reflux.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

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bluefish_dist wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am I don’t agree that a thermometer is useless,
bluefish_dist wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am For me that was important as it let me adjust reflux to keep my output at the abv I wanted. Temp going up, I was getting too much tails up the column and needed more reflux or less power. Temp going down, too much reflux.
If I couldn't tell those things without a thermometer telling me then I'd give the hobby away.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by bluefish_dist »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:28 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am I don’t agree that a thermometer is useless,
bluefish_dist wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am For me that was important as it let me adjust reflux to keep my output at the abv I wanted. Temp going up, I was getting too much tails up the column and needed more reflux or less power. Temp going down, too much reflux.
If I couldn't tell those things without a thermometer telling me then I'd give the hobby away.
I guess I am not good enough to be able to tell if my still was making 190.3 or 189.5 proof without a thermometer. For me it wasn’t a hobby, but a business. Time is $$, so I ran as fast as I could and still make the product I wanted. For the way I ran my still, temperature was the best way I found to know what was going on inside the still in real time. Can you make a fine drop without, yes, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t useful information.

As I have mentioned before, temperature doesn’t work for making cuts which is what most new people want to try and do. Still head temp is really the same as a parrot except it doesn’t have a lag.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Saltbush Bill »

My point is and was, that a Newbie who learns to run a still without using thermometers is going to learn a whole lot more in the first 12 months than one who uses a crutch like a thermometer in his / her first 12 months.
This thread in its self is a great example of the confusion that such methods cause.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

bluefish_dist wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am
bluc wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:33 am Interesting my findings are the opposite to the original post. I spent couple years making rum with a potstill. I had to cut harder and age for a lot longer to get something drinkable.
Through plates I dont mind the spirit even un aged....on a 200l ferment I average 2l more then same thing on a potstill....I think a plater cleans spirit up way better then a pot even when running lw.... Through plates I find the fractions are much more compressed also.

I run collection on a 4", 2-2.5l/h about same take off as a 2" pot but do one and done.....
You are correct that plates can provide much better separation. But going back to an earlier post, my theory is flavor is an impurity, thus a pot still can pass more flavor as it’s less pure (poor separation). This is what pointed me to my theory on match the number of plates to what you want out vs detuning a bunch of plates. If you want a nice white, more plates, barrel aged for years, less plates.

I don’t agree that a thermometer is useless, I found it integral to how I made spirits. Problem is many use them to do something that they don’t do. All a thermometer does at the still head is tell you the abv of your output. It doesn’t tell you what components are present, when to make cuts, just what’s your abv. For me that was important as it let me adjust reflux to keep my output at the abv I wanted. Temp going up, I was getting too much tails up the column and needed more reflux or less power. Temp going down, too much reflux.
If I go full pot still which apparently is "best option" either need to get hot plate or figure out how to displace some volume in bottom of boiler to provide enough volume over the heating element when I do my spirit runs.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:51 pm My point is and was, that a Newbie who learns to run a still without using thermometers is going to learn a whole lot more in the first 12 months than one who uses a crutch like a thermometer in his / her first 12 months.
This thread in its self is a great example of the confusion that such methods cause.
Ok I'm sold. I'll take your advice and work on it. Thank you
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Hey guy's wanted to provide a quick update roughly a month later. So I cut out vast majority of the tailsy smelling product for my final blend. Bottled everything up with a little lightly toasted french wine barrel stave I soaked in whiskey & cinnamon stick mix.

Little less then a month later, wanted to check in on it. Night and day!

The brandy has a distinct baked apple nose, hint of cinnamon coming thru. It is super clean and very sweet in the mouth already. Lots of apple flavor surprisingly coming through now. Really notice a difference in the "cleanness" of the one plate process. It's high proof and rough still but the sweetness immediately comes through on the tongue. Maybe the one plate system will work afterall, time will tell.

As an experiment, going to run the leftover feints 1.5l, with another 14 gal apple wine batch I'm finishing, full pot still. I'll age em separately to see which process I prefer.

Thanks again for all the help here everyone!
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

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Quick update on the apple/pear brandy, one year later. Aged the spirit in a 4 gal carboy with used chardonnay french oak staves for last year. Moved the brandy to 1 gallon growlers with cork seals, as an experiment. Also added some new french oak to bring a bit more oak to the game.
20230902_144429 (1).jpg
Nose is baked apples and pastry dough, sweet on the nose with a slightly astringent quality that I believe to be the pears. Mouth is surprisingly mellow for the proof. There is a STRONG apple (fruit) flavor, really sweet and round behind all the heat, like a good wheat whisky. Finish is still hot and really strong, needs to be proofed down to reveal that end I think.

Thank you, @NormandieStill, @Saltbush Bill, @bluefish_dist and everyone else who provided advice in this thread. Also big thank you to @Cranky, so much good content related to brandies, you should put it all in a book sometime!

Lastly, the product (apparently) turned out so well, that I've been offered an apprentice position with a local distillery to learn the craft from the bottom up. I'll be cleaning toilets and moping floors while I learn, but I'm super stoked. The hope is to create a local product largely based on the local Graventstein apple. We will be working with the old apple farmers, in an effort to preserve the orchards in the area from being replaced by grapes, which is happening at an alarming rate.

Cheers!
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