Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

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Evil_Dark
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Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Hi guys!
Not really a newbie here. I do some all grain whiskys, neutrals and brandys. But I then realized that I don't have much copper in my setup, and while the usage of copper to remove some chemical compounds in whisky is a bit contreversial, all the real distilleries have big copper stills...

So I want to know what would be the easiest way to add copper contact on my 25ga still? I have 2in column and shotgun condenser. I also have a 2in 5 buble plates built with copper plates, but I don't use it in pot still when I do the whisky.
I do have a worm coil in copper that I could use just to let the spirit flow through at the exit of the condenser if it can help.
I was also thinking to insert a rolled copper sheet in a stainless pipe and add this at the exit of the boiler, in the vapor path just before the condenser... Not sure if it is a good idea?
I can also put some copper sheets in the upper part of the boiler walls, or add some copper packing in a column (with no reflux) just to add copper in the vapor path...
What would be your solution/ideas?
Thanks!
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Evil_Dark wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:13 am Hi guys!
Not really a newbie here. I do some all grain whiskys, neutrals and brandys. But I then realized that I don't have much copper in my setup, and while the usage of copper to remove some chemical compounds in whisky is a bit contreversial, all the real distilleries have big copper stills...

So I want to know what would be the easiest way to add copper contact on my 25ga still? I have 2in column and shotgun condenser. I also have a 2in 5 buble plates built with copper plates, but I don't use it in pot still when I do the whisky.
I do have a worm coil in copper that I could use just to let the spirit flow through at the exit of the condenser if it can help.
I was also thinking to insert a rolled copper sheet in a stainless pipe and add this at the exit of the boiler, in the vapor path just before the condenser... Not sure if it is a good idea?
I can also put some copper sheets in the upper part of the boiler walls, or add some copper packing in a column (with no reflux) just to add copper in the vapor path...
What would be your solution/ideas?
Thanks!
Why do you think you need more copper?
Does your product taste bad?
Does your wash/mash smell like sulfur?
Does it smell "meaty" like when you drive by the Burger King at noon?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Well, I don't know. I just realised that I have no copper contact at all when I strip and spirit run in pot still mode when I do my whisky, and I think that could be an issue...
I have severals barrels to fill to make the real deal, so I don't want to mess anything up! There shoud be a good reason for all the real big whisky distilleries to use full copper stills and column (like remove sulfide compounds)?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Ben »

A small chunk of copper scrubby teased out and loosely stuffed into your riser is enough. Just make sure you get the all copper scrubbies, not the clad ones.
:)
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Evil_Dark wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:38 am Well, I don't know. I just realised that I have no copper contact at all when I strip and spirit run in pot still mode when I do my whisky, and I think that could be an issue...
I have severals barrels to fill to make the real deal, so I don't want to mess anything up! There shoud be a good reason for all the real big whisky distilleries to use full copper stills and column (like remove sulfide compounds)?
I don't have a great answer for you.
However you have not answered my questions.

Does your product taste bad?
Does your wash/mash smell like sulfur?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Ben wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:57 am A small chunk of copper scrubby teased out and loosely stuffed into your riser is enough. Just make sure you get the all copper scrubbies, not the clad ones.
How do you know that is enough?
Do you have any data to back this up?
Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distilling?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

My still is all stainless other than my reflux condenser and shotgun condenser. The only copper I use is 4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column/riser. That's all I've ever used it appears that's more than plenty. When the mesh was newer, the lower rolls would turn dark after a run while the top rolls were not. I took this as a indicator that a reaction is occurring and if there were a lack of copper then they should have all turned dark.

You could always throw copper bits in the boiler.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:19 am My still is all stainless other than my reflux condenser and shotgun condenser. The only copper I use is 4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column/riser. That's all I've ever used it appears that's more than plenty. When the mesh was newer, the lower rolls would turn dark after a run while the top rolls were not. I took this as a indicator that a reaction is occurring and if there were a lack of copper then they should have all turned dark.

You could always throw copper bits in the boiler.


Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distilling?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Evil_Dark »

bunny wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:01 am
I don't have a great answer for you.
However you have not answered my questions.

Does your product taste bad?
Does your wash/mash smell like sulfur?
Sorry you are right, I didn't answered your question :)
I don't think I have sulfur smell or taste, but honestly Im not really sure to be able to actually know how to detect these kinds of flavor. Are they very unpleasant and easily detected?
I've made very good rum, neutrals, and good UJSSM's whisky like, with nuclear aged techniques that turned "okay". I do enjoy good bourbons and scotchs, so UJSSM are'nt near as good as the real ones. My All grains turned out not so good, but didn't aged them properly yet. That's why I turned myself and bought real barrels (1 gallons, 3 gallons and 5 gallons) to fill and age.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

bunny wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:33 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:19 am My still is all stainless other than my reflux condenser and shotgun condenser. The only copper I use is 4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column/riser. That's all I've ever used it appears that's more than plenty. When the mesh was newer, the lower rolls would turn dark after a run while the top rolls were not. I took this as a indicator that a reaction is occurring and if there were a lack of copper then they should have all turned dark.

You could always throw copper bits in the boiler.


Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distilling?
Nope. Never has before.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Ben »

bunny wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:33 am


Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distilling?
Is your recommendation to make bad product before easily adding an ounce of prevention?

It's a few bucks of copper mesh and moments of your time. Why would you not... I guess you could mess around and smell and taste every mash and worry about the slightest hint of sulfur, or you could just think ahead a little and nip the potential problems in the bud. One less worry to improve the relaxation during a run.
Last edited by Ben on Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
:)
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

The rolls of copper mesh supports my random packing anyway so it's a win win.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Bunny does a wash need to smell, of sulphur before distilling to make a sulphurous smelling spirit? The only time I have ever smelled a bad sulphur smell was when someone used a solid stainless plated column, " no copper at all" the wash smelled fine........the end product was not fine.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:25 am The rolls of copper mesh supports my random packing anyway so it's a win win.
Maybe if you had smaller and better packing support you could get more overhead clearance or more packing depth.
I would consider that a win.
Ben wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:12 am
bunny wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:33 am


Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distilling?
Is your recommendation to make bad product before easily adding an ounce of prevention?

It's a few bucks of copper mesh and moments of your time. Why would you not... I guess you could mess around and smell and taste every mash and worry about the slightest hint of sulfur, or you could just think ahead a little and nip the potential problems in the bud. One less worry to improve the relaxation during a run.
I'm recommending not making a stinky wash/mash unless that's required in the recipe.

You have not answered the question.
Does your wash/mash smell of sulfur before distillation?

Is an ounce enough?
Backup data please as to correct amount copper needed.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by bunny »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:50 am Bunny does a wash need to smell, of sulphur before distilling to make a sulphurous smelling spirit? The only time I have ever smelled a bad sulphur smell was when someone used a solid stainless plated column, " no copper at all" the wash smelled fine........the end product was not fine.
I have no idea.

Thanks SBB, your example however seems to be the only time you have smelled a sulfurous spirit.
Could you elaborate a little more on the wash/mash for context.
Where do you think the sulfur came from?
Did the odor remain or dissipate?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Sporacle »

The other option is to have small sections of copper (I use offcuts from my builds) in the boiler.
Mine get a good soak in bacset for a few days prior to going into the boiler and they now pretty much live in there.
Never had a sulphur smell and have absolutely no science and don't know if it works, just like I always give the throttle on my chainsaw a quick double blip before I stop it, don't know what it does I just do it
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Twisted Brick »

I think sliding a sheet of copper inside a portion of the vapor path of a pot still is a great idea. My (copper) still doesn't require it, but as long as the copper sheet is installed properly and can't fall back into the boiler, I don't see the downside. The copper is inexpensive and could be easily removed for cleaning. There are other compounds beside sulphur that copper helps to mitigate, one of them being dimethyl trisulphide (DMTS), which is described as rotten vegetables and is of particular interest in the production of scotch whiskey.

Of course, one wouldn't be able to determine the flavor impact to one's distillate by adding copper until doing so and performing a side-by-side comparison.

To paraphrase the conclusions in this paper,
In lab scale distillations, copper was found to reduce the level of DMTS when placed in the wash still condenser and the spirit still pot. Copper in the spirit still condenser also appeared to play a role in controlling sulphury and meaty aromas, but the mechanism for this effect is, as yet, unclear.
So, placing copper in the pot can also help. Switching to a copper condenser presents an option that doesn't involve adding some form of copper into the vapor path.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Demy »

There are many posts about copper in contact with the distillate, in the search bar write "sulfur compounds", I think it will help. In general, it is always recommended to have copper in contact with the distillate.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Yummyrum »

I believe that many of the commercial stills have a Catalyser module that has a Copper honeycomb .

I can’t find pic of one now , but I remember it looked something like this sort of thing .(snatched pic off CCSC)
0D0E90EE-D875-4C26-BB64-22F2DEBC873B.jpeg
On a DIY level ,you can fill a module with a bundle of copper pipes . If you solder them all together you’d have a very similar Catalyser to what the commercial stills use .

Otherwise you’ll need yo use mesh
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Oatmeal »

Probably pieces of copper in the boiler.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by NZChris »

You didn't tell us anything about your boiler, so I don't know what to suggest.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by SDEngr1 »

I cut some short "rings" from 1/2" tubing...semi-flattened them and place them in my 180 degree elbow between the dephlegmator and final condenser. I have also placed them in the column in a 6" straight section but in the column the rings will act as an additional distillation plate which may be good or bad depending on what you are trying to do. Above the dephlegmator it has no effect on raising your distillate proof.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Twisted Brick wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:38 pm I think sliding a sheet of copper inside a portion of the vapor path of a pot still is a great idea. My (copper) still doesn't require it, but as long as the copper sheet is installed properly and can't fall back into the boiler, I don't see the downside. The copper is inexpensive and could be easily removed for cleaning. There are other compounds beside sulphur that copper helps to mitigate, one of them being dimethyl trisulphide (DMTS), which is described as rotten vegetables and is of particular interest in the production of scotch whiskey.

Of course, one wouldn't be able to determine the flavor impact to one's distillate by adding copper until doing so and performing a side-by-side comparison.

To paraphrase the conclusions in this paper,
In lab scale distillations, copper was found to reduce the level of DMTS when placed in the wash still condenser and the spirit still pot. Copper in the spirit still condenser also appeared to play a role in controlling sulphury and meaty aromas, but the mechanism for this effect is, as yet, unclear.
So, placing copper in the pot can also help. Switching to a copper condenser presents an option that doesn't involve adding some form of copper into the vapor path.
I had one batch of honey bear bourbon that randomly had issues with this. The distillate had a smell of cooked vegetables, meat and a tinge of rotten eggs. The wash smelled and tasted normal though.

I’ve found that wads of pure copper mesh in the boiler and riser seem to work well. They can be purchased on Amazon.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by squigglefunk »

pure copper mesh rolled up like a pumpkin roll and placed in the vapor path is the easiest way for me... seemed to work even when my still was all stainless...

I now also have a copper riser/column and copper liebig condenser

never had a sulfur smell come off the still.

Only had one wash ever smell of sulfur which I blamed on pitching the yeast too hot and stressing it out. The smell dissipated after a few more days of fermenting and did not affect the product at all. I gave a jar of that run to a friend and it was raved about at his camping trip by all who tasted it. Best moonshine ever was the most common response apparently.

does copper do magic things or not? I don't know but does it hurt to throw a little in there?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Okay so I went with the copper mesh, bouth a 100 feet roll of 100% copper mesh on amazon for 60 $cnd.
I am running a 100% corn on the grain today, I added the copper mesh on the vapor path. I'll see hom much of the mesh get discolored afterward, It' give me an idea of how much sulfur was caught by it!

Can we clean the copper mesh with a 5-1-1 solution (like the normal copper parts) ? Or I have to throw it away and put new one after it is too dirty?
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I’ve found no need to clean it. It builds patina just like the inside of a copper still. Works well for me.

I just give it a good rinse with hot water after a run, unroll it and let it air dry.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You don't need to clean it every time.
If you do clean it a soak in hot dunder for a short while then a rinse with clean water is enough.....if you want to spend money then citric acid is cheap and will do the same job.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Dougmatt »

I throw it in the boiler right after a run and let it all cool down together. Works like a charm for me.
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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

You should clean it first time with a sac run to remove any cutting oils from the manufacturing process that are probably left behind in the copper mesh.

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Re: Best / easiest way to add copper contact on a existing still?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I don't leave it in any sort of cleaner longer than necessary.......leaving mesh in for prolonged periods of time doesn't help its life expectancy.
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