Sulfur- PHEW!

[bunny]

Do you smell sulfur in your wash/mash?

A simple "no" will be response enough.

If "yes", please elaborate on your wash/mash circumstance.


I've been asking individuals lately and no one seems to smell sulfur in their wash/mash.
This is an open question to all who are interested.

Thanks in advance for your participation.
bunny

[Sporacle]

No, I have to elaborate because it's a six character minimum

[Uncle B]

I got a bad sulphur smell in a couple of sugar washes before I could maintain a steady fermentation temp (using an Inkbird controller and an aquarium heater)... So wild swings in fermentation temperature stressing out the yeast can definitely create it. But that's something you learn to avoid early on, which might exclaim why few notice it.

As is being discussed in the other thread about copper, having some copper in your distilling path, particularly when stripping, is helpful. You might not notice a sulfur smell, but it's so easy to correct, why not do it?

--B

[jonnys_spirit]

I've had H2S is wine ferments and used reduless to remediate after the fact - A good nutrient protocol is a good preventative for certain yeasts that are more prone to H2S production.
https://www.lallemandwine.com/en/austra ... /reduless/

I've used SO2 in wines that I later distilled and used H2O2 treatment to mitigate.

Pretty much all yeasties produce SO2 and H2S to varying degrees depending on the yeast and the environment - so even if it's below a detectable threshold in the ferment it's still a good idea to have some copper in your still and I have an all copper boiler & vapor path except for a couple SS elbows.

How much copper is enough? that would depend on how much H2S for one thing but zero copper wouldn't be enough to remediate.

Cheers!
-jonny

[Demy]

Only in fermentation, under yeast stress conditions or if you use lager yeasts for beer (this often happened to me with fermentis s-23)

[Saltbush Bill]

Could you elaborate a little more on the wash/mash for context.
Where do you think the sulfur came from?
Did the odor remain or dissipate?

Answering this here to avoid derailing the other thread.
Will try to keep it brief.
It happened when I visited someone new to distilling ....it was some years ago now, this is how I remember it from then.
it was the only time that Ive seen someone try to run a still with absolutely no copper.
The wash was UJSM from memory, I tasted the wash at the time to see if it was done/ dry/ finished .....just out of curiosity.
I dont remember it tasting strange,,,,,I do not know what the abv was and didnt ask.
Once the still was up to temp and producing I remember noticing a strange smell, others in the room didn't seem concerned.
The smell was strong enough that I started sniffing around at the cuts jars and asked what it was.......again the others didn't seem concerned.
Maybe they didnt know what they didnt know yet.
No matter how hard I thought about it while in that room I couldnt put my finger on what that smell was.......but knew Id smelt it before somewhere.
It wasnt until I was driving home later and still thinking about it that the answer came to me SULPHUR.
Did the smell stay there ?.....I wasnt around the spirit long enough to tell.

[Stonecutter]

This is nothing but a troll post. Seriously?? You all of a sudden have an urge to know if any members have sulfur smell in their wash/mash? No ulterior motive, no underlying prerogative?
No response to legitimate answers like jonnys.
You don’t even supply the forum with your own take.
What a joke…

[SaltyStaves]

I have copper and stainless steel liebigs. I have run the same wash through both of them and had the stainless steel liebig produce some truly pungent sulfur aroma in the low wines. This is predominantly with all grain and molasses heavy washes. No, the washes were not sulfury to begin with.

I have a very low tolerance of sulfur aroma. I can easily detect it and find it highly offensive. I think that is a big part of the argument, as some people have literally zero ability to detect it and others will pick it out before getting within twenty feet of the jar.

[NormandieStill]

I had a wash make a sulphur smell at the start of fermentation. I think it was wineos POSW. The smell didn't stay long but it was consistently present for about 24 hours after pitching.

[Dougmatt]

I keep happy yeast and a good water supply in my house so no detectable sulphur coming out of my stainless steel still that I can tell. I grew up in Florida and even today can’t drink the well water when I go home due to the sulphur smell so expect I would know those rotten eggs anywhere…. But who knows.

I have smelled H2S in wine ferments over the years, and couldn’t imagine how bad that would be during distillation…. But it would probably be bad.

[Stonecutter]

Let’s be honest Bunny. You could care less about whether or not the hobbyists ferments smell like sulphur. You want this to become some kind of crusade war between SS and copper but that subject has been beaten to death so you hide behind this ridiculous topic about mashes and washes.
I’ll entertain this subject simply because I’ve taken the time to respond.
Here, pull my finger.

[bunny]

Let’s be honest Bunny. You could care less about whether or not the hobbyists ferments smell like sulphur. You want this to become some kind of crusade war between SS and copper but that subject has been beaten to death so you hide behind this ridiculous topic about mashes and washes.
I’ll entertain this subject simply because I’ve taken the time to respond.
Here, pull my finger.

This is nothing but a troll post. Seriously?? You all of a sudden have an urge to know if any members have sulfur smell in their wash/mash? No ulterior motive, no underlying prerogative?
No response to legitimate answers like jonnys.
You don’t even supply the forum with your own take.
What a joke…

Sorry, I can't get your time back for you.
But I did pull your finger and can sympathize with the amount of grief you seem to have had making stinky products.
I have never fermented a batch that smelled of sulfur or smelled of sulfur after distilling.
I do care about how your stuff smells but only to determine how to avoid doing what you have been doing to create this stink.
I'm not interested in any particular conflict, or as you put it "crusade", but I would like to see some relative data as to minimum amounts of copper that still provides what might be of a real benefit.

My only interests have always been neutrals.

Other products or washes/mashes do not interest me.
jonnys_spirit wrote about wine ferments with issues that did not interest me.
Thank you jonnys_spirit for your participation.
This has not been an all of a sudden urge to know if your wash stinks.
I know I'm not that good but for 2 1/2 years I have not made even one smelly batch of sugar wash. (or anything else)
All this time I'm listening to people keep pushing more and more copper or else you'll have nasty product.
I don't think these people actually know how much is necessary.
I sure don't, but since "mine don't stink" maybe it's even less than I have in my pathway.

[Oatmeal]

Yes. About a third into ferment sometimes. Generally when wash gets too hot. None issues in distilallation....

[NZChris]

My only interests have always been neutrals.

You could have put that in your OP. The better your question, the better the answers, plus you don't cause members to waste their time posting irrelevant material.

...and no, I don't get sulfur stink in my neutrals because I avoid doing the stupid stuff that makes it happen. I suggest you do the same.

...and yes, I've always had copper in my boilers and still heads.

[Dougmatt]

I don’t love the antagonistic nature of this thread, but I will point out that some people here often say “find a way to add copper” or “you need some copper in that vapor path” or “just throw some copper in the boiler” as a default which I think is what Bunny is pushing back on. This thread and others like it such as viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42610&start=180 always seem to devolve into religious wars, but there are some points worth exploring some. I also see people say “my copper turned black so I must have sulphur In the mix”, well copper oxide (rust) is black also and at least as likely as sulphur given the conditions in the still so without some testing (which I’ve never read about anyone doing) I don’t know what that color is… Copper (like many things of this earth) is helpful when consumed in smaller amounts and dangerous In larger amounts. Most of us already get enough copper in our diet from other sources, so I’m not a copper hater, but I’d like to at least minimize how much more I get without sacrificing product quality.

Here’s my personal experience and thoughts. I run a stainless still, and have been told / read these comments many times AND I stressed out a bit about it until I figured out how to do it safely (at first what I did wasn’t safe). I’ve now run more than 20 runs with copper packing in and done a couple of side by sides with it out a few times. Frankly I can’t tell the difference on basic sugar heads. Brandy and Rum I like the copper run a little bit more as it smelled “cleaner”. HBB I liked the side by side I did better without the copper surprisingly.

I don’t have the experience to emphatically take a position for others, but I will say that for now, I will run my Brandy’s and Rum with a little copper packing for strip and spirit as I think it improves the flavor. I will probably strip HBB without it, and add it for spirit runs. For a sugar wash, I will probably just leave it out. As I type this, I have a steady stream of HBB spirit run coming out and I put the copper packing in for it. Smells good to me, but then so did the strips.

Finally I personally don’t like the idea of recommending copper in the boiler as a general response without knowing more about the wash / mash. For example my personal sugar wash recipe is made with lemon juice. Drinking Citrus and copper has been proven to be a bad idea especially if you take your time with it…. The multi-hour run with copper sitting in citrus juice just seems like a really BAD idea to me.

[squigglefunk]

reminds me of the old days in the sulfur mines

[Stonecutter]

But I did pull your finger and can sympathize with the amount of grief you seem to have had making stinky products.
I have never fermented a batch that smelled of sulfur or smelled of sulfur after distilling.

One 5 gallon batch of store bought grape juice didn’t give me much grief Bunny. What gives me grief are sideways posts that don’t aim to help anybody.

I do care about how your stuff smells but only to determine how to avoid doing what you have been doing to create this stink.

You’re not offering any suggestions on sulfur elimination or mashing procedures. You don’t have anything to offer in the way of this topic.

My only interests have always been neutrals.

Other products or washes/mashes do not interest me.
jonnys_spirit wrote about wine ferments with issues that did not interest me.

Only after I call you out do you weasel back into your neutral hole. Why even mention mashing in your OP??
As I said before. I don’t take kindly to snakes in the grass. Politics ain’t allowed here.
Come out and say what you mean instead of creating sham posts in the Novice Distillers section that will only confuse newbies instead of helping them.

[bunny]

My only interests have always been neutrals.

You could have put that in your OP. The better your question, the better the answers, plus you don't cause members to waste their time posting irrelevant material.

...and no, I don't get sulfur stink in my neutrals because I avoid doing the stupid stuff that makes it happen. I suggest you do the same.

...and yes, I've always had copper in my boilers and still heads.

A simple "no" would have been an adequate answer to my question.
So, I'll ask you another: Do you get GNS from a wash or a mash?

There are many here who proclaim neutral from a mash is superior to that from a wash.
Why do you think the smell of their stuff is irrelevant?

[squigglefunk]

isn't GNS: "grain neutral spirit" indicating a mash?

sugar washes always smell the worst.

[jonnys_spirit]

Other products or washes/mashes do not interest me.
jonnys_spirit wrote about wine ferments with issues that did not interest me.
Thank you jonnys_spirit for your participation.

Sure -no problem.

The issue with grape musts that aggravates excessive H2S and other sulphur produced by the yeasties is primarily a property referred to as YAN or "Yeast Available Nitrogen". A low measured YAN value will require a staggered and measured nutrient addition protocol to prevent excessive H2S production by the yeast.

Wineries and vineyards lab measure this property but for small ferments it's not feasible so the shotgun approach also works - add a certain amount of Fermaid O/K to your ferment in a staggard protocol - particularly when using higher H2S producing yeasties like RC212.

If you're looking for exact measurements for copper exposure or additions as a remediating agent I don't expect that you'll find it here. Before redulees was available for wines folks would recommend "running the wine over a copper sheet" until the issue was resolved. This potentially incorporated excessive (or unmeasured) copper into the end product which can be dangerous not to mention promotes excessive oxidation of the wine...

I don't feel like copper comes over in distillation so it's not an issue but it would be good to know if it does and how much..

Cheers!
-jonny

EDIT: A ferment is a ferment - the same principles apply across the board and specific scenarios are of course important.