Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Information about fruit/vegetable type washes.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hey guys,

As a homebrew club member, we get a group discount on a cider buy every fall. 5 bucks per gallon gets us some incredible cider for fermenting. The blend is fantastic for hard cider. I always make two kegs full every year and get some for my buddy. He’s a half hearted hobbyist who is guilty of making something and just leaving it in the carboy forever. He has some cider that’s basically been sitting in his basement for two years and he offered to give it to me to distill. It’s about 6 gallons worth.

There’s a potential problem though, it’s been sulfited as per our normal process, which is not good for something to be distilled. Considering the amount of time it just sat around in the carboy, I’m wondering if it’ll make an okay product.

I’m more of an all grain distiller and have never made anything from fruit. I have the ability to pot still or run it through a plated column. Considering the low volume, a strip/spirit run would likely expose the internal element on my keg boiler, so I’d have to either make more cider to add to the mix, or run VERY slow with a plated single run for a small final yield. I’m concerned, even with 4 plates, I’ll get too much smearing with such a low boiler charge.

Here’s a couple questions: should I be worried about the sulfur from the metabisulfite? My rig is all stainless, but I normally stuff some copper mesh in the vapor path and in the boiler to clean things up.

My other question, considering it’s such a low volume, should I just strip it and save the low wines for another time when I get more juice to run?

If I decide to ferment more, how much is a worthwhile amount to get a decent yield for a nice spirit run? I have a 50 gallon stainless kettle at my disposal, so I’ve got the space.

I’ve got my all grain process pretty well tuned, but know very little about running fruit or doing cuts for fruit. From the little I have read, if I intend to use my bubble plates, I should run lower power than I would for all grain to keep the light stuff in the plates and the tails in the boiler as the apple flavor is buried in the heads. And unlike whiskey, with tasty early tails, I want no tails at all with fruit. This is where my knowledge ends. I could also be wrong about my assumptions.

Thanks for any advice!
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Dougmatt »

Hi there. I can’t discuss the specifics of cider, but can comment on the sulfide. I’ve run a lot of wine I’ve made into brandy now and it all had added small amounts of k-meta as preservative. No issues for me. I run stainless, but recently added copper into the vapor path. I can’t detect a major difference personally, but I would run with the copper because, why not :wink: . I did research this previously and found this article by Odin just in case your first strip has a sulpher tinge:

https://istillblog.com/2018/08/23/odin-removes-sulfur/

For the rest, I would rely on other comments from people who do cider, but from my grape experience, my pot still worked well and I like a 1.5 run better than a double. You get more flavor carry over and that might reduce the amount needed to keep your element covered? Just a thought.
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

Don't be too aggressive with the foreshot for any fruit stripping run as many of them need some of the early flavors that come off the still.

Don't worry about including early/late/heads/tails/ etc.. That talk is confusing and leads to making mistakes.
Do your spirit run in your best still, (1.5 is handy for a small amount of wash with a pot still), into at least 20 jars, then choose a blend that you like from those jars, starting with a blend of the most flavorless middle jars and working your way out from each end until you identify the two jars that are one too far and spoil the blend.

Do a recheck.

Once you are confident that you haven't chosen jars that spoil the cut, put the heart cut jars into one vessel.

The jars that didn't make your cut are the heads and tails.
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Ben »

Since your in cider season why not just grab enough more cider to give you 1 or 3 full boiler charges... that way you get enough volume to lay some back, you can run whichever still you like.
:)
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks For the feedback guys.

NZChris: What's a good fores amount to cut out for a 12 gallon strip? 100ml?

I did more reading and it seems plates can actually bury some of the desired "good heads" into the undrinkable heads. So potstill it is.

Ben, I think you hit the nail on the head. I said screw it and ordered A LOT of cider. Well... a lot for me. Instead of doing two kegs of hard cider this year, I'll only do one and use the rest of it for brandy. With my buddies fermented stuff and the fresh juice I ordered, I'll have 25 gallons total around 6.5% ABV "I get that most years." This would give me two boiler charges with some headspace. I just have to choose for myself whether I do a strip/spirit run, or a 1.5 run. Two strips wouldn't give me a full boiler charge for a spirit run.

With that said, as a newb to this, perhaps 2 runs will help me have an easier time with cuts. idk... for the investment, I really don't want to screw this up and waste $125, so I better get it right! My wife gave me raised eyebrows when I told her I was buying 25 gallons of cider haha. I'm sure the guys in my club have figured out what I'm doing with this huge order.

I read through Cranky's process for making apple brandy and he mentioned using no nutrient at all, just juice and yeast. He also mentions using EC-1118 yeast as a newbie so there's no additional esters. I typically ferment my hard ciders in an uncontrolled basement environment with a 65 degree F ambient temp. I can "kind of" keep the large kettle fermenter cool enough with a box fan attached to an inkbird temp controller. Seems to work well for my all grain stuff. I'm assuming sticking to the low end of the temp range will leave more flavor behind if I can get it to stay there.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I just did some calculations. With two 12 gallon strips, collected down to 30%ABV, I'll only have about 5 gallons of low wines. Definitely far from a full charge in my half barrel keg boiler. I'm assuming I would need to perform a pretty slow spirit run with such a small charge. Drips, not a stream.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

How are you heating it?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Demy »

You might think about going down to 20Abv and beyond for fruit, evaluate the smell .... this will give you more flavors available in the final distillation.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

NZChris wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:19 pm How are you heating it?
I have a 5500W heating element inside on 220V.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Demy wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:50 pm You might think about going down to 20Abv and beyond for fruit, evaluate the smell .... this will give you more flavors available in the final distillation.
That’s good advice, thank you!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

Heat rises. If the element is close to the surface and you try to run slow, you might lose the circulation needed to heat the bottom of the pot. I don't think that running slow, especially when in obvious hearts, is as helpful as some distillers think it is.

Cranky has done a lot more apples than I have. Maybe you can find a post of his about foreshots?
Some interesting reading starting here: viewtopic.php?p=7474362

My fruit low wines are normally below 27%.
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Dougmatt »

The choice is up to you, but if it was me, I might do something like 2x9 gallon strips run down to 20% which should be a net 3 gallons each for 6 total (check my math as I did it quick), and then add those to the final 6 gallons Spirit Run that to 20% which I think will yield about 8 gallons. Once you get into obvious tails you can crank it up and strip out.

Odds are good you will get a little extra fruit flavor this way and love it…

Worst case, you don’t like it, so dump it all back in and sprit run that to clean it up…

@nzchris thoughts?
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Dougmatt wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:54 pm The choice is up to you, but if it was me, I might do something like 2x9 gallon strips run down to 20% which should be a net 3 gallons each for 6 total (check my math as I did it quick), and then add those to the final 6 gallons Spirit Run that to 20% which I think will yield about 8 gallons. Once you get into obvious tails you can crank it up and strip out.

Odds are good you will get a little extra fruit flavor this way and love it…

Worst case, you don’t like it, so dump it all back in and sprit run that to clean it up…

@nzchris thoughts?
Not a bad plan! I like it!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

Dougmatt wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:54 pm @nzchris thoughts?
I've got nothing to add as I don't know how much is needed to cover the element. I positioned mine so that 1.5 liters covers it and I've never had to deal with volume problems.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

NZChris wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:33 am
Dougmatt wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:54 pm @nzchris thoughts?
I've got nothing to add as I don't know how much is needed to cover the element. I positioned mine so that 1.5 liters covers it and I've never had to deal with volume problems.
Hey Chris,

My keg boiler is flipped upside down and I use the neck as a drain. The element sits as low as possible before the side of it starts to turn towards the neck. I need about 2 gallons in the boiler to feel safe about not exposing it.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

With 5 gallons of 30%, you should just get away with it. Stripping lower will get more volume, more flavor and better yield. Use plenty of Watts to keep circulation going near the end.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

As always, thanks for the feedback Chris. I’ll do just what you described.

I’ll plan to strip fast and collect low. I will also do a slow heat up to allow some of the reactions to take place in the boiler.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NZChris »

I was trying to say to keep the heat up for the spirit run because heat rises, your element is high, and you don't want the circulation stalling, leaving the bottom undisturbed.

When running slow and the element is close to the surface, if you can, compare the temperature at the bottom of the still to the temperature at the surface of the charge.

I hadn't heard that fruit benefits from long heat up times, it might if you are doing a 1.5.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Picking up my fresh juice to start my ferment tomorrow.

After talking to my buddy that’s donating the cider, apparently he added cinnamon and clove to it… hmm. Think it could add an interesting twist to the product? Or perhaps taint the whole batch in a negative way? I was mistaken about it being 6 gallons, it’s actually 10. Score
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Steve Broady »

I’d run it! I out a little clove into an experiment once. The experiment was a failure, but the clove flavor came though. And after sodium carbonate and another distillation, it turned into cinnamon somehow. No clue. But it’s good, anyway.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Steve Broady wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:13 pm I’d run it! I out a little clove into an experiment once. The experiment was a failure, but the clove flavor came though. And after sodium carbonate and another distillation, it turned into cinnamon somehow. No clue. But it’s good, anyway.
Right on. Since the volume being donated is a 10gallon charge, I can always strip it separate from my other cider wash and see what happens as it comes off the still. I can run slow as to not smear to help determine if any objectionable flavors pass over.

My buddy also clarified, he only added cinnamon, not clove.



Now I gotta figure out what wood to use for aging this stuff. From what I’ve gathered so far, previously used wood that has been toasted is ideal. I have a ton of wood from a Buffalo Trace bourbon barrel that was used for aging imperial stout. Works great for my all grain stuff. I basically just cut the staves into sticks and sand off the old char / scum that formed on the outside of the barrel and re-toast. Because a lot of the wood from the outside of the barrel is essentially still “new oak,” I do get concerned about too much oak tannin coming into play.

With all that said, I’m definitely looking for lighter oak presence and more of an emphasis on the apple flavors. I don’t want to create something that tastes like whiskey with the apple taking a backseat.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Update:

2 days into the ferment at this point. When I picked up the cider it was still cold, so I used this to my advantage. I pitched 4 packets of EC1118 into my 20 gallons of cider at 60 degrees and let it slowly ramp up. Since it’s a large ferment with a lot of thermal mass, I have a box fan blowing full blast at the side of the kettle in an attempt to keep it as cool as I can. After two days, it seems to be hanging somewhere around 71.5 degrees. I was hoping for a cooler ferment to keep more apple aroma contained, but this will have to do. You guys have success around this temp?

I cracked the lid and gave it a sniff. No sulfur, just sweet apple goodness. I’m excited! Before pitching, I added some DAP yeast nutrient to keep the sulfur at bay and it seems to be working well so far.

Not exactly the case for the 5.5gallons in the bucket, destined to be hard cider. I’ve found it’s common with the Imperial Bubbles yeast strain I use. I always need to degass and add a bit more nutrient 2-3 days in. It’s a very aggressive strain, but leaves lots of apple flavor behind. Makes for excellent hard cider!
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by Ben »

I think the temp is fine for that yeast. 1118 seems like an odd choice for your goals, it's pretty neutral. D47 or 71B would have brought out more of the fruit, so4 or Nottingham might have brought up the ester profile a bit.

It will still make something delicious.
:)
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Ben wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:28 am I think the temp is fine for that yeast. 1118 seems like an odd choice for your goals, it's pretty neutral. D47 or 71B would have brought out more of the fruit, so4 or Nottingham might have brought up the ester profile a bit.

It will still make something delicious.
Thanks for the feedback Ben. Good to know on the temp. I checked it today and it’s seemed to have climbed a bit more. It’s sitting around 73 degrees right now and seems pretty active.

I had the idea for 1118 from Cranky’s apple brandy thread. He mentioned the cuts get trickier when using more expressive yeast strains, so as a newb, he recommends 1118. If all goes well, I will try something fruitier next time.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Well the cider seems to have finished fermenting after one week. I still need to check the SG, but after taking a peek under the lid of the kettle, it’s no longer fizzing. I’ll likely leave it another week undisturbed and check it them. Smells amazing. Very apple-y. Not even a hint of sulfur during the ferment.

For clarity before stripping it, how clear does it need to be? You guys run cloudy apple wash with no issues? Should I use a clarifying agent in it?
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1739
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Some cider is being donated to me, have some questions.

Post by NormandieStill »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:48 am Well the cider seems to have finished fermenting after one week. I still need to check the SG, but after taking a peek under the lid of the kettle, it’s no longer fizzing. I’ll likely leave it another week undisturbed and check it them. Smells amazing. Very apple-y. Not even a hint of sulfur during the ferment.

For clarity before stripping it, how clear does it need to be? You guys run cloudy apple wash with no issues? Should I use a clarifying agent in it?
Calvados traditionally rests on the less for up to 6 months. You can take your time. :wink:
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
Post Reply