SEPARATE COLUMN TO REDUCE HEIGHT

[sergiolis]

I've seen this picture and I wonder
if it is a good idea to separate the column to reduce height
What do you think?
For me it would be great if that is possible...

separated column.jpg

[Metalking00]

Yes, columns can be separated from the boiler, but i dont think that one you showed would work. The column would end up filling up with liquid until it reached a level that it could get into the boiler. Which would cause all sorts of problems.

As far as i understand, ther column needs to be able to freely drain into the boiler, like the drawing ive attached. I may be wrong, and im sure someone will point out if i am, but that photo you have seems very problematic. Also, i dont fully understand that dangly dick part in the middle. Whats that for?

Edit: looking closer at the photo. I have no idea whats going on there.... What are all of the boxes for with tubes goin all over the place? What is that top donut thing? The more i look at it the more i wonder where you found that thing?!

[sergiolis]

Hi Metalking00
Yes, I agree, it's really weird, particullarly because it's a reflux column. I found it just surfing on internet.
The boxes and tubes probably are devices to measure alcohol strenght, temperature, pressure...... It's from a russian seller.
Thanks for your answer
The donut is called a disc condenser, but no idea about the inner tube...

[Salt Must Flow]

One thing I've never observed is how much reflux actually falls back into a boiler from a well insulated reflux column. One day I want to install a sight glass at the base of the column for this very reason. Not that it serves any real purpose, but just to see it for myself. It makes sense to me that there would have to be a lot falling back to the boiler because there's a lot occurring up top. Takeoff rate is slow in comparison to the amount of reflux so it has to be going back to the boiler otherwise the column would flood.

[The Baker]

I think if you have a thumper THAT can be mounted, say, on the floor.
Anyway below the boiler.
Which may achieve what you want.

But I hope to hear from people more expert than me...

Geoff

[Salt Must Flow]

I think if you have a thumper THAT can be mounted, say, on the floor.
Anyway below the boiler.
Which may achieve what you want.

But I hope to hear from people more expert than me...

Geoff

That makes perfect sense to me. Once the thumper gets up to temp, the column would start to reflux, and the thumper should be able to handle the falling reflux as long as it is adequately sized.

The first pic has me interested in understanding exactly how it works. At the very base of the column there appears to be a silicone hose attached. There's a mystery box lying next to it. Could it be some kind of pump that returns reflux back to the boiler? Like a Peristaltic pump perhaps? Makes me wonder if that dangling pipe is actually a mini thumper or something like that. Maybe the reflux is pumped back to that thing.

[bluefish_dist]

The problem is you have to get the distillate at the bottom of the column that is liquid back to the boiler. You can pump it back or just lower the column so it’s just above liquid level. Same goes for series columns. You have to get the distillate from the bottom to the top of the previous one. Really the easiest way to gain height is to make a shorter boiler.

I did this for my vodka still. Used a cube shaped still instead of round. The cube was 3” shorter and 2x the volume. The only limit to making the boiler larger is that it has to be deep enough to not boil the elements dry. If you look at the big submarine pots, they are huge, yet not very tall. Btw not saying that’s a good design to use, just illustrating the point of going out instead of up on the boiler to gain column height.

[Demy]

I could make mistakes but it seems to me that some small commercial systems use a separate column ... I have no idea if that set-up will work but I think it is possible in principle.

[NormandieStill]

One thing I've never observed is how much reflux actually falls back into a boiler from a well insulated reflux column. One day I want to install a sight glass at the base of the column for this very reason. Not that it serves any real purpose, but just to see it for myself. It makes sense to me that there would have to be a lot falling back to the boiler because there's a lot occurring up top. Takeoff rate is slow in comparison to the amount of reflux so it has to be going back to the boiler otherwise the column would flood.

For a data point: I started putting a sight glass on my boiler when stripping after having a few problems with puking. My pot still head is not "insulated" but I have a fleece that I throw over the top of the still which helps keep the heat in, and the breeze out. Despite this, from start to finish I have drips running down the glass. Nothing compared to what it looks like when actively refluxing, but still a surprising amount. Makes me think the default value of 10% passive reflux in the pot still calculator is not too far from the truth.

[Twisted Brick]

For a data point: I started putting a sight glass on my boiler when stripping after having a few problems with puking. My pot still head is not "insulated" but I have a fleece that I throw over the top of the still which helps keep the heat in, and the breeze out. Despite this, from start to finish I have drips running down the glass. Nothing compared to what it looks like when actively refluxing, but still a surprising amount. Makes me think the default value of 10% passive reflux in the pot still calculator is not too far from the truth.

+1

I have experienced the same thing, observing continuous reflux (sometimes in thin sheets) drips in the sightglass placed between boiler and pot riser. I distill outside, mostly-protected from wind, but I think my 3" copper pot tends to bleed heat, contributing to this reflux. I can only imagine the activity when fully refluxing.

Here is another thread on side-by-side columns.

[The Baker]

Used a cube shaped still instead of round. The cube was 3” shorter and 2x the volume. The only limit to making the boiler larger is that it has to be deep enough to not boil the elements dry.

Or I suppose you could have a still that is wider like you said, to be much shorter for the volume contained;
but of a much lesser diameter in the lower section where the element is, so as to need much less liquid to cover the element.

Geoff

[stillness]

My money says, the little square box on the ground is a pump. You can see hoses going from the bottom of the column to it and back to the boiler.

The middle big dick thing is a separate condenser, for running in pot still mode. (Just guessing)

[acfixer69]

Where the hell is Googe. I know NZ.He's been there.

[quadra]

I agree with stillness... it looks like a five year old drew it but the box on the left seems to be a power controller, the middle doodle seems to be a condensate pump, and the right one seems to be a fractioning controller of some kind that directs the output to either the parrot or some kind of catheter bag
The frying pan condenser is actually my favorite part of the whole thing, as the potential surface area of a disc vs a cooling coil is much greater ...but far more complex to cool effectively.

[Yummyrum]

No doubt it's a pump that's returning the column bottoms to the boiler .
But seriously , if they can have a solid valour pipe from the boiler to the column base , surely they could have copper or stains piping and a metal positive displacement pump to do the return .

There just looks like a lot of unnecessary plastic that hot liquid is in contact with for a long time .

However it's got me wondering , ..... What is the AVB of column bottoms .
Obviously it will vary throughout the run , but wondering if anyone has numbers .

[NZChris]

However it's got me wondering , ..... What is the AVB of column bottoms .
Obviously it will vary throughout the run , but wondering if anyone has numbers .

I've drawn off samples dropping from 70% to 20% while producing azeo.
viewtopic.php?t=70666

[Yummyrum]

However it's got me wondering , ..... What is the AVB of column bottoms .
Obviously it will vary throughout the run , but wondering if anyone has numbers .

I've drawn off samples dropping from 70% to 20% while producing azeo.
viewtopic.php?t=70666

Thanks Chris . That's kinda what I imagined but hadn't tried to find it myself .
Anyway ,backs up my thinking that 8-12 hr runs with that sort of AVB through several metres of plastic tube can't be too good . The small surface area of a gasket seal is one thing , that's a whole new layer of nasty .

[googe]

It works, just need good flow in and out, I covered a bit in my side column thread. I dont see pumping return distillate a issue on the size stills we use but if you can afford the equipment it would. I did small testing with abv coming out the downcomer pipes to. Good luck

[Windy City]

I have been planning on adding a side column on my 4" siporax packed CM still. viewtopic.php?t=80901 I have built side column stills before that gravity fed the condensate back to the boiler. It is much more efficient to send the condensate from the bottom of column 2 to the top of column 1. At that point you are only using the RC for column 2 and treating the whole thing like it is one piece.
Also if we are pumping the condensate from the bottom of column 2 to the top of column 1 I could use my full height from floor to ceiling and not have to start above the boiler for column 2.
I recently posed the question on ADI on what type of pump to use but didn't get much reply.
I have been looking into positive displacement gear pumps with a variable speed drive. The pump would have to deal with high proof alcohol, high temperature and a variable flow rate. A gear pump seemed ideal as they are not that hard to find with all stainless and PTFE internals. While they are easy to find they are not cheap so before I pull the trigger I am doing more research

[Steve Broady]

What flow rate do you need to deal with, Windy City? I would think that you could probably find a hobby machinist nearby would could make you a positive displacement piston pump out of either stainless, copper, or PTFE. Such pumps are quite common in the small scale live steam world, though they’re almost always made from either brass or bronze.

[Windy City]

What flow rate do you need to deal with, Windy City? I would think that you could probably find a hobby machinist nearby would could make you a positive displacement piston pump out of either stainless, copper, or PTFE. Such pumps are quite common in the small scale live steam world, though they’re almost always made from either brass or bronze.

I am not exactly sure how to figure that out. That is part of the reason I wanted a variable speed pump.
I took a guess at it by figuring that currently I am producing 10.5 liters per hour so if i double that it would bring me to .35 liters a minute but I would want to buy something a little bigger and control by speed. I am currently looking for something in the 1 liter per minute range.
If anybody has any thoughts on this, all input is appreciated

[bunny]

What flow rate do you need to deal with, Windy City? I would think that you could probably find a hobby machinist nearby would could make you a positive displacement piston pump out of either stainless, copper, or PTFE. Such pumps are quite common in the small scale live steam world, though they’re almost always made from either brass or bronze.

I am not exactly sure how to figure that out. That is part of the reason I wanted a variable speed pump.
I took a guess at it by figuring that currently I am producing 10.5 liters per hour so if i double that it would bring me to .35 liters a minute but I would want to buy something a little bigger and control by speed. I am currently looking for something in the 1 liter per minute range.
If anybody has any thoughts on this, all input is appreciated

Are you planning to just double the vapor speed in your 4" column?

[Windy City]

Are you planning to just double the vapor speed in your 4" column?

No the reason I doubled the production rate was for when I am in full reflux. That is figuring a 1 to 1 reflux rate.
I do believe I will be able to run faster due to the increased height but not really sure how much until I put it together.

[bunny]

Are you planning to just double the vapor speed in your 4" column?

No the reason I doubled the production rate was for when I am in full reflux. That is figuring a 1 to 1 reflux rate.
I do believe I will be able to run faster due to the increased height but not really sure how much until I put it together.

Have you determined the HETP of the Siporax?
Maybe it's time to reconsider SPP?
Contact "bitter" for info on his SPP.
You could gain 18-24" extra column by having a local marina build you a custom under deck fuel tank to replace your current boiler.

You could always just build another complete boiler and column and place it next to your present one. That should double your output.

[Windy City]

You could always just build another complete boiler and column and place it next to your present one. That should double your output.

I doubled the production rate for pump sizing, not what is coming off the spout.
As far as the Siporax I have been very happy with it especially for the short length of my 4" column. To build this project I only need to purchase the pump as I have everything else (4" copper pipe, site glass tees, deplegamators, Siporax and on and on). It would change my developed column length from 5' to 12'