shotgun, liebig, or a flak coil condensers

[Captn Jack]

I got done building my 12-gallon copper pot still and 5gal. thumper the other day. I started on the flake and wound about 20 ft of 1/2"od. copper tubing with 18 coils for the worm I was going to use a tall 6gal. tall plastic bucket with circulating water from the bottom to the top. The coils will just fit in it with maybe 1 coil sticking out of the top of the bucket, the coils are spaced 1/2" apart.
I wanted to go with the flake setup because I had all the material on hand already. I started reading about using a shotgun or Liebig condensers. The shotgun would cost me some money to make, and I think I have most of the parts to build a Liebig. Just curious as to the thoughts on all three of them I am kind of old school so that is where the flake came in. I would be using a 4000W electric heater element.

[Dancing4dan]

There are advantages / disadvantages to each.

I currently use a 48” Liebig. It gets product away from the heat source. Important if you are using propane. It hangs out a long way and needs to be supported. It is 48” of 3/4 over 1/2 copper. It isn’t enough to knock down my 4500 W element.

Am building a shotgun soon. Have material just need time. My understanding is they work best in a vertical position. That means it’s closer to heat source. So that will need to be managed. Because of how they work they are more efficient than a Liebig. Therefore uses less water.

A Liebig is easy to build with off the shelf plumbing parts. A Shotgun requires some fabrication skills and is likely more of a challenge to solder together.

I have never used a worm and flake stand setup.

[Steve Broady]

I built a small shotgun, and have not regretted it. I run it at an angle of about 45 degrees and have not had any issues. For me, I wanted the compact size so that it’s easier to store. Otherwise I would have gone with a Liebig for simplicity. I’m not a fan of the flake stand, having tried it and found it a bit of a frustration. Having an open bucket of water was a mess waiting to happen, and I had a bell of a time getting the right flow rate since I didn’t have a bucket big enough to just fill and leave for the run. Also, I don’t like that I can’t easily clean the inside of a long coil, if I need to.

[Salt Must Flow]

I had a 4' or longer Liebig, but built a 2' Shotgun and I love it. It has way more knockdown power (more surface contact area) than the Liebig.

[Chucker]

I built a sort of mini flake, really more of a a Graham condenser. It’s a piece of 3” ss tube about 700-750 mm long with a ferrule on each end. Solid tri clamp end caps have a stainless 3/8” swagelok bulkhead fitting welded thru for each end. The sidewall of the tube has a pipe 1/2 cplg welded near each end. The internal tube is a 10’ coil of 3/8” copper and this goes between the aforementioned end caps with the swagelok fittings. It gets mounted vertically and a piece of tube goes between the column takeoff and condenser inlet. The bottom gets a long spout to direct flow away for collection.
I run it with well water on a keg boiler with a 5.5 kw element. But once it starts to produce, power gets dialed back to about 50%. The 3/8” tube is minimal and I don’t need to over run its capacity to be free flowing at all times.

[shadylane]

Just curious as to the thoughts on all three of them I am kind of old school so that is where the flake came in. I would be using a 4000W electric heater element.

If you have to carry water to the condenser, use a worm.
If there's a faucet nearby, use a liebig or dimroth.
If there's a faucet nearby and you want copper porn. Build a shotgun.

[bcook608]

When you think about the fact that a 24" long 2" shotgun with 4 x 1/2" vapor tubes has the same if not better knock-down power than an 8' Liebig, the choice is pretty clear in my opinion.

I run my shotgun at 45 degrees and haven't had any issues other than some distillate coming out too fast and overshooting my collection vessel. It seems like it might have been splashing inside the reducer causing some drops to increase in speed. I fixed that by adding a 45 degree elbow so the distillate comes out straight down into my collection vessel. I can add a small piece of pipe too if I need to to close the gap for smaller jars. It's quite nice.

[shadylane]

I wouldn't recommend a shotgun.
Unless there's a reason for a condenser shorter than a Liebig.
And more complex than a dimroth.

Bang for the buck, on a liebig.
Have the water jacket only one size bigger than the vapor tube.
My preference for a keg sized pot, is a 1" vapor tube with a 1-1/2" water jacket.
Size the length of the liebig to match the boiler power.

[NZChris]

Vapor from 4000W through 1/2" OD tube doesn't sound safe to me.

Has anyone here done that?

[squigglefunk]

I wouldn't recommend a shotgun.
Unless there's a reason for a condenser shorter than a Liebig.
And more complex than a dimroth.

Bang for the buck, on a liebig.
Have the water jacket only one size bigger than the vapor tube.
My preference for a keg sized pot, is a 1" vapor tube with a 1-1/2" water jacket.
Size the length of the liebig to match the boiler power.

yeah! FWIW, I have a 3/4" over 1/2" 4 ft liebig, it knocks down everything I need it to and uses a very small water flow. The length works out to my advantage as it helps me get my distillate where I want it to go. I used a thin spiral wire between the two pipes and another thicker one inside the 1/2" - seems to get a better temp gradient with the wire.

[rull_bull]

Agree with the above comments regarding liebig, a shotgun is nice but in most cases a liebig will do just fine.
Way easier to build, can knock down more than enough if you size it enough. Atleast for the type of power a hobby distiller would normally use.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm a big fan of the liebig to.
Simple and fast to build and more than adequate for the majority of distilling jobs.

[Knife_man]

I wouldn't go back to a liebig after building my shotgun.
It was fiddly to make (mine even more than usual) but in a package the same size as my liebig length AND girth I went from controlling the heat because my liebig couldn't cope to wishing I had more power to strip faster.

Liebig's are good as a super simple effective condenser which pretty much anyone could throw together after a trip to the hardware store. You could probably even build one without soldering.

BUT shotguns have amazing knockdown power in a small compact package.

[Yummyrum]

When you think about the fact that a 24" long 2" shotgun with 4 x 1/2" vapor tubes has the same if not better knock-down power than an 8' Liebig, the choice is pretty clear in my opinion.

Worth thinking about when and why this is the case .
At low power they will both behave similar.

As the power increases , so does the vapour speed as it passes by the cool metal. To transfer the heat takes time . It is the dwell time .If the power is too high , there is insufficient dwell time to remove the heat so the condenser needs to be longer to compensate.

So if we chop the liebig into multiple tubes , the vapour speed is reduced as there is more area . The dwell time is therefore increased making the transfer of heat more efficient . IE the vapour in each tube is now travelling slow enough that it can transfer its heat to the surrounding metal and into the cooling medium.
It also has the advantage of having more surface area compared to if it had to travel in a larger single tube of the same area.

Another thing I find interesting is why we make worms to long . If a 4’ length of copper in a liebig does the job , why do we waste 4 or 5 times that coiled up in a flake stand ?

[Steve Broady]

Another thing I find interesting is why we make worms to long . If a 4’ length of copper in a liebig does the job , why do we waste 4 or 5 times that coiled up in a flake stand ?

I’ve been thinking about that myself. The answer I’ve come up with, aside from the simple fact that it looks right that way, is that most open coils are sitting in a bucket of water where very likely the whole bucket is a bit on the warm side by the end of the run, whereas a Liebig or pretty much anything else is going to have a controlled flow of cool water, usually in the reverse direction to the vape flow. In short, a flake stand is a stupid simple design that’s stupid simple to build and operate and is accordingly overbuilt for stupid simplicity and reliability. Also, toning comes in relatively long coils, so why not use a little more since you bought it just for the purpose anyway?

[Saltbush Bill]

Another thing I find interesting is why we make worms to long . If a 4’ length of copper in a liebig does the job , why do we waste 4 or 5 times that coiled up in a flake stand ?

I look at it the other way ..a liebig as long as a worm would work even better.....it just wouldnt be easy to store or shift around, for that reason we are limited to making them of a length that is convenient to use.

[Salt Must Flow]

I did a 4' Liebig and it functioned just fine, but the product was on the warm side during 5500W stripping runs with the amount of water flow I provided at that time. It could have worked better with a higher flow rate though. A 24" shotgun used significantly less water at a less water flow rate because of the increased surface area though it was shorter in length. That's just physics due to increased condensing surface area. That's why it's more efficient with water. When I started stripping with two 5500W elements the water exited at higher temp than my tubing could handle. I had to increase the inner diameter to increase the water flow and then it knocked down 1100W just fine. I failed to keep proper notes for that run, but I recall the product coming out just over 70F or so. I'll record the exact temp next time. I used 3/8" OD Polypropylene tubing.

Shotgun condensers are not as simple to build as a Liebig, but they are just a more complicated water jacket just like a Liebig (a more simple water jacket). It's all about passing water over the the amount of copper surface vs the vapor, heat transfer, causing condensation, the water flow rate, whether you're recycling water, the water's increasing temp over time, the rate you add water, what that water's temp is, the volume of water you're recycling, etc... There's so many variables. The long story sort is ... shotguns are more efficient due to the increased surface are vs the size and overall length.

[shadylane]

Vapor from 4000W through 1/2" OD tube doesn't sound safe to me.

Has anyone here done that?

Here in the states the only 1/2" OD copper you can get is soft copper tubing.
1/2" OD has a 0.436" ID
In my opinion that's getting small enough that it's possible to plug it up.
All it would take is the soft copper tubing to bend.


With a 4kw boiler, I'd recommend 3/4 ID for the vapor.

[Steve Broady]

Here in the states the only 1/2" OD copper you can get is soft copper tubing.
1/2" OD has a 0.436" ID
In my opinion that's getting small enough that it's possible to plug it up.
All it would take is the soft copper tubing to bend.


With a 4kw boiler, I'd recommend 3/4 ID for the vapor.

Would you consider that 1/2” tubing sufficient for a smaller stove top boiler? I have an idea for a simple to build Liebig with off the shelf components which would include 1/2” tubing, just to document it here for the benefit of newbies in the future. But I don’t want to suggest something which might be a safety hazard.

[shadylane]

1/2" ID is fine for a stove top still.

[bcook608]

Here in the states the only 1/2" OD copper you can get is soft copper tubing.
1/2" OD has a 0.436" ID
In my opinion that's getting small enough that it's possible to plug it up.
All it would take is the soft copper tubing to bend.


With a 4kw boiler, I'd recommend 3/4 ID for the vapor.

Would you consider that 1/2” tubing sufficient for a smaller stove top boiler? I have an idea for a simple to build Liebig with off the shelf components which would include 1/2” tubing, just to document it here for the benefit of newbies in the future. But I don’t want to suggest something which might be a safety hazard.

I never had any issues with my stove top setup and I was using a rather large burner. As long as you're not using some sort of turbo burner or jet burner, I think you'll be fine. It's when you start dealing with multiple KW or washes that are particularly foamy that you have to watch it.

[Captn Jack]

I made up my mind and stayed with flak because I had most of the parts I needed to make it, it has a 15ft coiled 1/2" od worm in a 6 gal tall plastic bucket with a 30 gal water cooling tank on the side. Pictures to come as soon as I getter done.

[BoomTown]

Great ideas here thanks. I once took 15’ of soft ½” copper inserted into 14’ of 1-¼” polyvinyl tubing, sealing the ends with silicone, and cutting in an entry and exit for water using ⅜” copper. Then coiled the tubing keeping an 8” diameter to the inside of the loops. Used a small aquarium pump that circulated bottom to top.

Vapor fed in from a 20L pot, using a 1500wt hotplate. Usually took about 3 ½ hours for a (10% ABV) to beer run to test out at 10% ABV, running full on. Never once got any vapor out the end, only booze. Gave it to a friend that never used it. Last I saw it, the clear vinyl tubing had turned green…from being store with water in the chilling path….

Far as I’m concerned, it’s only drawback was its bulk.Guess it qualified to be called a “flak coil condenser” huh?

[Yummyrum]

Boomtown , what you describe sounds like what the beer makers use and call a counterflow Wort Chiller . It makes perfect sense over using a flake stand full of water . It is indeed a coiled Liebig .
But as you mentioned , you need a support frame of some sort to hold all the coils in a gentle downward spiral .

A mate up the road has one and when I first saw it I thought “what the fuck is that “, but it’s actually a very simple way to make a condenser requiring no soldering skills at all .

[BoomTown]

Boomtown , what you describe sounds like what the beer makers use and call a counterflow Wort Chiller . It makes perfect sense over using a flake stand full of water . It is indeed a coiled Liebig .
But as you mentioned , you need a support frame of some sort to hold all the coils in a gentle downward spiral .

A mate up the road has one and when I first saw it I thought “what the fuck is that “, but it’s actually a very simple way to make a condenser requiring no soldering skills at all .

Yep, and it’s amazingly efficient.

[BoomTown]

Boomtown , what you describe sounds like what the beer makers use and call a counterflow Wort Chiller . It makes perfect sense over using a flake stand full of water . It is indeed a coiled Liebig .
But as you mentioned , you need a support frame of some sort to hold all the coils in a gentle downward spiral .

A mate up the road has one and when I first saw it I thought “what the fuck is that “, but it’s actually a very simple way to make a condenser requiring no soldering skills at all .

Giving this some thought, if I could build a shotgun with say 5 (3/8”) tubes, the math tells me I’d gain like 50% more surface area in an 8” shotgun over my current 14” (x 1/2”) lieburg. From a ‘storing space’ perspective, that’s one very attractive reason for considering it. Would it have impact on the temperature changes of the water in my chilling reservoir? Would I need to increase water capacity? Is there a design diagram available for building a small shotgun, that I could insert, using a 1-¼” tri-clamp?

[Steve Broady]

Is there a design diagram available for building a small shotgun, that I could insert, using a 1-¼” tri-clamp?

I don't have a diagram, but my mini shotgun sounds similar to what you're describing.



It has a 1" outer shell and 4 ¼" tubes. The whole thing is 15" long, which gives it about 41.5 square inches of surface area. That's equivalent to a 1/2" tube about 26.5" long. While ¼" is smaller than is recommended here, so far I have had no issues with it, nor do I expect any. If I put anything in the boiler big enough to clog the tubes, I'd be more worried about scorching. I feel perfectly safe with it myself, but I can't in good conscience recommend it as a good solution for everyone. I share it here merely as an answer to your question, and perhaps as inspiration for whatever you might care to build.

If you want to know how it's built, these pictures should help some. I used a 1-¼" ferrule, with had an ID almost perfectly suited to the 1" copper pipe. The end plates are just scraps of pipe which I cut and flattened. I annealed and flared the ends of the tubes so that they couldn't fall through the end plates, and further flared them once installed to make as tight a joint as possible, and then everything was soldered. It has survived multiple heating cycles hot enough to flow all the solder, and has not failed.

[BoomTown]

Is there a design diagram available for building a small shotgun, that I could insert, using a 1-¼” tri-clamp?

I don't have a diagram, but my mini shotgun sounds similar to what you're describing.



It has a 1" outer shell and 4 ¼" tubes. The whole thing is 15" long, which gives it about 41.5 square inches of surface area. That's equivalent to a 1/2" tube about 26.5" long. While ¼" is smaller than is recommended here, so far I have had no issues with it, nor do I expect any. If I put anything in the boiler big enough to clog the tubes, I'd be more worried about scorching. I feel perfectly safe with it myself, but I can't in good conscience recommend it as a good solution for everyone. I share it here merely as an answer to your question, and perhaps as inspiration for whatever you might care to build.

If you want to know how it's built, these pictures should help some. I used a 1-¼" ferrule, with had an ID almost perfectly suited to the 1" copper pipe. The end plates are just scraps of pipe which I cut and flattened. I annealed and flared the ends of the tubes so that they couldn't fall through the end plates, and further flared them once installed to make as tight a joint as possible, and then everything was soldered. It has survived multiple heating cycles hot enough to flow all the solder, and has not failed.

. First of all, thanks! This is exactly the kind of model I’d hoped for.

Maybe I’ll take something pictures as I build mine.

More to come.
Boomtown