worth doing?

[theawfulone]

is making ethanol for fuel even worth doing? i wanted to start making it to offset the cost of petrol since its going to go way up in price again. but with the cost and time, does anyone actually do it and feel that its worth it?

[Steve Broady]

What is your time worth, and how long does it take you to produce alcohol? I think you’d be doing amazingly well to get 1 US gallon/hour out of a hobby sized still. (Using freedom units because it’s what I know best, despite metric being superior.) My time is worth roughy $40/hour, which means that if I have to decide between going to work for an hour and running the still for an hour, fuel would have to get 10x more expensive than it is in my market before I could even break even making my own. Obviously, that’s neglecting income taxes, the cost of energy and feed stock, so it’s just a very rough first approximation. Your economics might be wildly different, but that’s how I look at such questions. Hopefully that helps.

[theawfulone]

What is your time worth, and how long does it take you to produce alcohol? I think you’d be doing amazingly well to get 1 US gallon/hour out of a hobby sized still. (Using freedom units because it’s what I know best, despite metric being superior.) My time is worth roughy $40/hour, which means that if I have to decide between going to work for an hour and running the still for an hour, fuel would have to get 10x more expensive than it is in my market before I could even break even making my own. Obviously, that’s neglecting income taxes, the cost of energy and feed stock, so it’s just a very rough first approximation. Your economics might be wildly different, but that’s how I look at such questions. Hopefully that helps.

yeah, i was hoping to make enough fuel to run all my equipemtn at home, (tractors, 4-wheeler, etc) but even making an engine run off of alcohol looks iffy at best

[SDEngr1]

$8 sugar for 2 Qrts...you do the math.

[football29]

does anyone actually do it

no one actually does it and posts here it seems. people who arent interested in it, find reasons to dismiss it. those who believe in it, suggest ways to make it work.

this forum is a wealth of information for design and operating distilling equipment, very important piece of making fuel but the rest is up to you.
can you find a better source of fermentable material than buying food products retail? can you find source of heat better than retail electricity or propane? use leftover solids to feed animals?

[drmiller100]

is making ethanol for fuel even worth doing? i wanted to start making it to offset the cost of petrol since its going to go way up in price again. but with the cost and time, does anyone actually do it and feel that its worth it?

My still makes 2.5 gph of 95 percent etoh PER STILL.
You can make a fuel still for well under 1000 bucks.
It takes 12 pounds of sugar or starch to make a gallon of etoh.

People are lazy. When gas hits 10 bucks a gallon.....

[acfixer69]

12 lbs is still 6 bucks and the energy to disstill it. Before 10 bucks lazy is in your face.

[Yummyrum]

I stubbled across this link from olddog

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... meToC.html

Might be of interest

[Saltbush Bill]

I have no interest in making fuel, but everything Ive ever read says that its going to cost more in time , fermentables and energy / power than just going out and buying fuel.
Gut feeling from my own distilling is that , that is correct.
Fuel is cheap to buy , Rum is not.

[Yummyrum]

Thats my take on it too Salty . Cost me nearly $60 in gas and $40 sugar to make about 15 litres of Neutral .

Petrols not cheap but for $100 , I can buy about 50litres

Not yo mention a good weekends work saved.

Like you , I’d rather spend the time and energy making Rum

[CoogeeBoy]

Thats my take on it too Salty . Cost me nearly $60 in gas and $40 sugar to make about 15 litres of Neutral .

Petrols not cheap but for $100 , I can buy about 50litres

Not yo mention a good weekends work saved.

Like you , I’d rather spend the time and energy making Rum

not to mention the fact that ethanol and ethanol blends burn at a higher temperature which affects your spark plugs etc so you need to make sure your engines are up for it

[theawfulone]

is making ethanol for fuel even worth doing? i wanted to start making it to offset the cost of petrol since its going to go way up in price again. but with the cost and time, does anyone actually do it and feel that its worth it?

My still makes 2.5 gph of 95 percent etoh PER STILL.
You can make a fuel still for well under 1000 bucks.
It takes 12 pounds of sugar or starch to make a gallon of etoh.

People are lazy. When gas hits 10 bucks a gallon.....

i need to pick your brain then.i could grow stuff to ferment. I have a few acres. what type of still do you have? can i see your setup?

[drmiller100]

Thats my take on it too Salty . Cost me nearly $60 in gas and $40 sugar to make about 15 litres of Neutral .

Petrols not cheap but for $100 , I can buy about 50litres

Not yo mention a good weekends work saved.

Like you , I’d rather spend the time and energy making Rum

not to mention the fact that ethanol and ethanol blends burn at a higher temperature which affects your spark plugs etc so you need to make sure your engines are up for it

You completely missed on this one. Etoh burns slower (higher octane) and cooler than gasoline.
It does have less energy per gallon. Than gasoline.

[drmiller100]

12 lbs is still 6 bucks and the energy to disstill it. Before 10 bucks lazy is in your face.

It's cheaper and lazier to to buy at the liquor store than make your own.

Also more illegal.

[drmiller100]

is making ethanol for fuel even worth doing? i wanted to start making it to offset the cost of petrol since its going to go way up in price again. but with the cost and time, does anyone actually do it and feel that its worth it?

My still makes 2.5 gph of 95 percent etoh PER STILL.
You can make a fuel still for well under 1000 bucks.
It takes 12 pounds of sugar or starch to make a gallon of etoh.

People are lazy. When gas hits 10 bucks a gallon.....

i need to pick your brain then.i could grow stuff to ferment. I have a few acres. what type of still do you have? can i see your setup?

There is a whole thread on this forum including links to videos

[squigglefunk]

You completely missed on this one. Etoh burns slower (higher octane) and cooler than gasoline.
It does have less energy per gallon. Than gasoline.

it does kill regular engines, and even the ones made for running it

[tommysb]

In Brazil, where there is a big (sorry, HUGE), sugar cane industry, many cars are dual-fuel, gasoline and ethanol. You can go to the gas-station (yes, a misnomer), and fill up with either ethanol or gasoline. The cars are specced to just run on either, without modification. Not sure if they do some magic with the engines there, different tuning etc, and not sure if they die sooner.

So it's done on an industrial scale in parts of the world where that makes sense. Obviously on a home level, there won't be the efficiencies of scale that exist there.

[football29]

You completely missed on this one. Etoh burns slower (higher octane) and cooler than gasoline.
It does have less energy per gallon. Than gasoline.

it does kill regular engines, and even the ones made for running it

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

[squigglefunk]

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

ethanol is hygroscopic and a much stronger solvent than gasoline, both are bad for your motor

[Steve Broady]

I don’t see how, squigglefunk. All you have to do is get the fuel into the engine via something which is not soluble in ethanol. PTFE fuel lines, metal, you name it. Water sitting around in an engine is bad, but it’s also a normal byproduct of combustion. As long as the entire system is designed with due care, I don’t think that ethanol is intrinsically destructive to an engine. Yes, it can very be bad for an engine designed to run on pure gasoline and improperly or incompletely modified. But then again, unleaded gas is destructive to engines designed to run on leaded gasoline, and yet we have been running unleaded gas for decades without mass engine failure.

The key is a properly designed and built system, and fuel is a part of that system.

[drmiller100]

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

ethanol is hygroscopic and a much stronger solvent than gasoline, both are bad for your motor

Around 1980 they started putting ethanol in gasoline.
So, well.

No.

[Dee Envy]

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

ethanol is hygroscopic and a much stronger solvent than gasoline, both are bad for your motor

Around 1980 they started putting ethanol in gasoline.
So, well.

No.

They also manufacture e85 engines these days.

[hawkwing]

I seem to recall that it wasn’t economical without the subsidies on corn. With the price of fuel these days who knows.

[drmiller100]

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

ethanol is hygroscopic and a much stronger solvent than gasoline, both are bad for your motor

Around 1980 they started putting ethanol in gasoline.
So, well.

No.

They also manufacture e85 engines these days.

No. They make engines. Some have larger injectors and sensors to measure etoh fuel content to run on any mix from straight gasoline to e85.

[Metalking00]

Im a mechanic and everyday i see the damage done by ethanol in fuel. It damages fuel lines, plastic fuel fittings, fuel filters, o rings and anything else it comes in contact with. It increases corrosion and is just generally worse in all ways that non ethanol fuel.

I work on motorcycles and it was a huge problem for manufacturers like ducati that used plastic fuel tanks. They were fine when used with only gasoline, but the addition of ethanol caused them to swell and warp, sometimes enough that the fuel doors would no longer seal and theyd start pissing fuel on the ground.

Its easy to say "just use ptfe or metal", or "just design it to work eith ethanol". Youre welcome to try, but you simply cant in most applications. Try replacing a viton seal on a fuel quick disconnect with a ptfe seal, it just wont work. Many fuel pumps rely on a flexible diaphram that cant be made of ptfe or metal or anything else. While some things like rubber fuel line could possibly be replaced with ptfe, the added cost to manufacture and install something that is ill suited for the application in every other way besides ethanol resistance just doesnt make sense

[Stonecutter]

Im a mechanic and everyday i see the damage done by ethanol in fuel. It damages fuel lines, plastic fuel fittings, fuel filters, o rings and anything else it comes in contact with. It increases corrosion and is just generally worse in all ways that non ethanol fuel.

I work on motorcycles and it was a huge problem for manufacturers like ducati that used plastic fuel tanks. They were fine when used with only gasoline, but the addition of ethanol caused them to swell and warp, sometimes enough that the fuel doors would no longer seal and theyd start pissing fuel on the ground.

Its easy to say "just use ptfe or metal", or "just design it to work eith ethanol". Youre welcome to try, but you simply cant in most applications. Try replacing a viton seal on a fuel quick disconnect with a ptfe seal, it just wont work. Many fuel pumps rely on a flexible diaphram that cant be made of ptfe or metal or anything else. While some things like rubber fuel line could possibly be replaced with ptfe, the added cost to manufacture and install something that is ill suited for the application in every other way besides ethanol resistance just doesnt make sense

An engine can be designed to accept many different gas and fuel mixtures. Don’t Indy cars run on ethanol?
What might be right for one engine may be wrong for another.

[shadylane]

Engine wise, 90% ethanol and 10% water makes a great fuel.
The problems begin when gasoline and ethanol are mixed.

There is an advantage to the ethanol industry.
It makes for a plan B option other than foreign oil.
Sadly, politics gives us the worst of all fuel called gasahol.

[hawkwing]

I watched a documentary years ago as in over 10 years ago. Brazilian cars can run anything from 100% gasoline to 100% ethanol.

[Metalking00]

Im a mechanic and everyday i see the damage done by ethanol in fuel. It damages fuel lines, plastic fuel fittings, fuel filters, o rings and anything else it comes in contact with. It increases corrosion and is just generally worse in all ways that non ethanol fuel.

I work on motorcycles and it was a huge problem for manufacturers like ducati that used plastic fuel tanks. They were fine when used with only gasoline, but the addition of ethanol caused them to swell and warp, sometimes enough that the fuel doors would no longer seal and theyd start pissing fuel on the ground.

Its easy to say "just use ptfe or metal", or "just design it to work eith ethanol". Youre welcome to try, but you simply cant in most applications. Try replacing a viton seal on a fuel quick disconnect with a ptfe seal, it just wont work. Many fuel pumps rely on a flexible diaphram that cant be made of ptfe or metal or anything else. While some things like rubber fuel line could possibly be replaced with ptfe, the added cost to manufacture and install something that is ill suited for the application in every other way besides ethanol resistance just doesnt make sense

An engine can be designed to accept many different gas and fuel mixtures. Don’t Indy cars run on ethanol?
What might be right for one engine may be wrong for another.

Not a great comaprison. Race car (and motorcycle) engines usually get rebuilt between races, and anything that shows signs of wear or degradation is replaced, so running on methanol, or nitromethane or whatever doesnt make much difference. Those cara dont get driven to the track. Try driving that as a daily driver and youd see a different reality.

Youre right that engines can be designed to run on many different types of fuel, but that says nothing about the longevity of those designs when taking the composition of seals and hoses into account.

As far as the brazilian cars go, many do run alcohol, but no one says theyre reliable... they dont have to be, they have a brazilian of them! I used to work on a lot of aircooled volkswagens, and ive worked on a few brazilian ones that were alcohol burners. The fuel pump (rubber diaphragms), hoses and seals, vaccuum lines, accellerator pumps, etc. All require replacement at greatly reduced intervals compared to a gasoline version. They run alcohol because thats the abundant and cheap fuel, not because its a good choice or is good for the machines.

[bluefish_dist]

are you talking about normal wear and tear aka entropy that wears out every engine and other machine? or is there a specific failure mode accelerated significantly by use of hydrous ethanol as fuel in a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

ethanol is hygroscopic and a much stronger solvent than gasoline, both are bad for your motor

Around 1980 they started putting ethanol in gasoline.
So, well.

No.

They also manufacture e85 engines these days.

Mostly driven by cafe standards. For a while they got credits for burning e-85. So they made it work. Not sure anyone is still doing it today. E-85 can be an amazing fuel if the engine is designed around it. Ie huge injectors, large boost levels. Just swapping it in results in lower power and higher consumption.