Strange Smell from Rye Wash

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brewboy73
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Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by brewboy73 »

HI All
I have been experimenting with rye malt and flaked rye in my bourbon washes. Every time I use rye in my mash, the resulting wash ends up with a very bad smell that even passes through to the distillate. I've tried multiple yeasts and get the same results. The last test batch I made I couldn't even taste off the still it was so bad.
I ended up putting some charred and toasted oak in the distillate and it removed the smell immediately and the rye whisky tastes very good. Has anyone else had this happen? Is this just the nature of rye at high %'s in the mash? I've been brewing beer with rye for many years and never has this happen before.

Sean
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

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Can you describe it?
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

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NZChris wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:11 pm Can you describe it?
HI
The smell is very much like puke meets burning plastic. I've picked this up with washes using 30% to 80% rye. I just brewed a Rye PA with 35% flaked rye and none of those flavors or esters came through in it.

Thinking it was a specific ester coming off the Rye Whisky yeast I used, I then tried with a test batch using regular DADY yeast and got the same results.

The resulting whisky after adding charred oak is really good, but I'm wondering how much better it could be if it didn't have this disgusting aroma to fight off first.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by still_stirrin »

brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am … much like puke …
Sounds like enteric bacteria. Possibly in the grains. Your mash protocol would be needed to understand better how this propagated into the fermenter.
brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am … meets burning plastic …
Phenols. Unhealthy yeast or long lag times can cause this. Proper aeration/oxygenation will help the yeast at the start of fermentation.
brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am I've picked this up with washes using 30% to 80% rye. I just brewed a Rye PA with 35% flaked rye and none of those flavors or esters came through in it.

Thinking it was a specific ester coming off the Rye Whisky yeast I used, I then tried with a test batch using regular DADY yeast and got the same results.

The resulting whisky after adding charred oak is really good, but I'm wondering how much better it could be if it didn't have this disgusting aroma to fight off first.
So, your “whiskey yeast” may need some special care to get a healthy ferment. The grains have plenty of nutrients (vitamins) but they yeast needs oxygen for the aerobic phase when the yeast reproduces, building to the cell count for latent fermentation.

And if you’re fermenting “on the grains”, then that could be the source of the bacteria that causes the “puke” character. How they’re stored prior to brewing could affect a bacterial contamination and the fermentation environment would allow the bacteria to grow, and possibly “out-grow” the yeast.

The malted rye grains will have a unique smell when mashed, not like a “vomit”, but sharp on the nose. It isn’t like the bready aroma you get from malted barley, but more nutty. Flaked rye usually doesn’t smell near as strong when mashing, so that probably isn’t the source of the anomaly you’ve noted.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by HDNB »

rye has some pretty different smells when it's fresh. i'd say vegetable, grassy....combined with heads components aldehydes and acetone, it's awful. the distillate sweetens up in hearts and the signature pepper is late hearts/early tails.
lots of time and oak fixes a properly cut batch right up, but you need a broad heads cuts and not too deep into tails.

the mash also burns/toasts/scorches easy, even in a bain marie or steam jacket. i never could get it clean enough to run direct fired....the burns/toasts/scorches will add all sorts of off flavours, coffee, chocolate if it's subtle but burnt automotive plastic if shit gets out of hand.

vegetal, astringent, peppery burnt plastic for a poorly cut overcooked rye mash sounds just about right.

edit* for clarity, you can overcook the mash and also burn/toast/scorch the actual low wines run. you are safe on a spirit run.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

still_stirrin wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:20 am
brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am … much like puke …
Sounds like enteric bacteria. Possibly in the grains. Your mash protocol would be needed to understand better how this propagated into the fermenter.
brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am … meets burning plastic …
Phenols. Unhealthy yeast or long lag times can cause this. Proper aeration/oxygenation will help the yeast at the start of fermentation.
brewboy73 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:26 am I've picked this up with washes using 30% to 80% rye. I just brewed a Rye PA with 35% flaked rye and none of those flavors or esters came through in it.

Thinking it was a specific ester coming off the Rye Whisky yeast I used, I then tried with a test batch using regular DADY yeast and got the same results.

The resulting whisky after adding charred oak is really good, but I'm wondering how much better it could be if it didn't have this disgusting aroma to fight off first.
So, your “whiskey yeast” may need some special care to get a healthy ferment. The grains have plenty of nutrients (vitamins) but they yeast needs oxygen for the aerobic phase when the yeast reproduces, building to the cell count for latent fermentation.

And if you’re fermenting “on the grains”, then that could be the source of the bacteria that causes the “puke” character. How they’re stored prior to brewing could affect a bacterial contamination and the fermentation environment would allow the bacteria to grow, and possibly “out-grow” the yeast.

The malted rye grains will have a unique smell when mashed, not like a “vomit”, but sharp on the nose. It isn’t like the bready aroma you get from malted barley, but more nutty. Flaked rye usually doesn’t smell near as strong when mashing, so that probably isn’t the source of the anomaly you’ve noted.
ss
A few years back I brewed a pale ale and forgot to sanitize the carboy I used as my fermenter. This is the first and only infected thing I’ve ever made. It was absolutely terrible. Whatever was in there imparted an overpowering burnt rubber smell and flavor. I dumped it down the drain.

One of the descriptors for off flavors in beer is a “bandaid” like smell from excess phenol production caused by certain wild yeast and bacteria. As SS alluded to, there might be a hungry little bug clinging to your rye. OR you’re scorching it.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by brewboy73 »

Thanks for the responses. Here is what my mash schedule looked like:
Ran the corn meal about 190F for about 90 minutes to gelatinize it. Added barley and enzymes for about 10 minutes and then the flaked rye with some Visco Buster from White Labs. Mashed at 154F for about an hour until proper conversion. Allowed mash to cool to about 115F and then added some cold filtered water and put entire wash in fermenter with the grain. Fermenting on the grain was a first for me. I usually treat my washes the same as my beer mash.
Next time, I will run the wash through my Mash & Boil and boil for 10 minutes and then hit it with more oxygen.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by OtisT »

HDNB wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 7:43 am .... the distillate sweetens up in hearts and the signature pepper is late hearts/early tails.
lots of time and oak fixes a properly cut batch right up, but you need a broad heads cuts and not too deep into tails.
HDNB. Thanks for sharing this cut suggestion. I’ll be starting my own distilling process for my first ever batch of rye in a few weeks. This info will come in handy when I get around to cuts.

Sean, I’m new to rye and the one big bad smell I am getting from the ferment is a really strong sour smell.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by brewboy73 »

Yeah. That sour smell is really hard to get past and the fact that it transfers directly to the distillate was very concerning. Was shocked how fast it went way with a little oak. I guess the charcoal properties in the oak have that strong of an effect. Looking to get my hands on some Rye Malt next to see if the same results happen.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by Dr Griz »

I've been playing around with high percentages of malted rye and oats lately, and found a similar "puke" / butyric odor coming from both. My first hypothesis (like SS) was that it was some kind of bacterial ick, but I'm just not sure because:

(1) I gelatinized both oats and rye in boiling water for more than an hour -- as I understand it, your typical enteric bugs will die off at 158
(2) When I keep the rye or oats below 25%, the weird smell doesn't materialize -- wouldn't bacteria propagate through the mash pretty much regardless of the percentage of the contaminated grain?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying SS is wrong; I'm just puzzled how a bacterial infection would produce these effects...

Do y'all reckon that it has something to do with the infection working on the grain before I ever tossed it in the mash?
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by brewboy73 »

Hi All
As a final update for the Rye Whisky that gave me such a problem, it has been sitting on charred oak for a few months now and the final product is amazing. That "puke" smell and taste are completely gone and the peppery sweet rye taste is definitely there. Will be making another batch soon with malted rye at 55% of grist bill. Thanks again for everyone's input and advice.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by RockinRockies »

I read through this and I'm wondering how unmalted feed rye berries compares in flavor and mashing/fermenting difficulties.

I've run into the same exact aromas with my unmalted rye recipes comprising of 15% rye in the mash bill
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by Ben »

On the malted rye and unmalted oat whiskey (88% rye, 8% oat, remainder specialty) I make I don't get the vomit thing. I do get it when I use a lot of unmalted barley or unmalted oats, so maybe it is an unmalted grain thing, I am trying to understand it. It isn't the same as butyric, which is reasonably easy to get rid of. Fortunately that vomitty green flavor does change over time on oak, I get umami and baked goods (shortbread), think Irish whisky. I could not get it to go away in glass with no oak.

The high rye is the nicest smelling thing off the still I have ever had the pleasure to distill...

The rye does tend to be very ester heavy though. On the batches I made I fermented with so4 and lacto. I think the so4 probably contributed more esters, its possible fermenting this out with a cleaner yeast such as US05 may help back down the esters (I think whiskey yeasts are designed to produce esters, but I am not sure about it) if you are trying to get something to a drinkable state faster. During 7 months in barrels those esters have done a bunch of things, wet alfalfa --> bubble gum --> pez --> cherry cough syrup, but now all of those flavors have vanished or muted and it's becoming a lovely drink. I never tasted plastic or rubber in it though.

For the tasters of burnt rubber/bandaid do you have chlorine or chloramine in your tap water, or do you use chlorine in cleaning process? That is a classic chlorophenol thing. I remember running out of sanitizer once, used chlorine thinking it would be fine, did not rinse adequately since I had no sanitizer and the batch of beer from that was awful and tasted just this way. It's one of 3 batches I ever dumped. Another way to detect chlorophenol is taste the beer before you still it, does it numb the mouth? If so that is definitely chlorophenol and you need to find and eliminate your chlorine source.


Mash and grain squeeze can be difficult. It is made a lot easier with a Glucan rest and generous use of rice hulls.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by OtisT »

My 100% unmalted rye carried the sour smell through from the ferment to the distillate in the spirit run, but the sour completely went away after a day or two of airing.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by RockinRockies »

That rye Ben made is the most wonderful rye I've ever had, by a wide margin. I'm still in shock at how delicious it was for only 18 months.. IIRC.

I'm interested in setting up a sparge so we can go all grain and I really want to make a high rye. We have all unmalted rye and feed grains though, so we'll see about that funk flavor thats being mentioned.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

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RockinRockies wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am I read through this and I'm wondering how unmalted feed rye berries compares in flavor and mashing/fermenting difficulties.

I've run into the same exact aromas with my unmalted rye recipes comprising of 15% rye in the mash bill
100% unmalted rye is more vegetal and astringent. ever chewed mature canary grass? requires many much time in the oak. no bueno white imho.
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by RockinRockies »

HDNB wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:13 am
RockinRockies wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am I read through this and I'm wondering how unmalted feed rye berries compares in flavor and mashing/fermenting difficulties.

I've run into the same exact aromas with my unmalted rye recipes comprising of 15% rye in the mash bill
100% unmalted rye is more vegetal and astringent. ever chewed mature canary grass? requires many much time in the oak. no bueno white imho.
Crap. And I hear attempting to malt is hell
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Re: Strange Smell from Rye Wash

Post by HDNB »

RockinRockies wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:03 pm
HDNB wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:13 am
RockinRockies wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am I read through this and I'm wondering how unmalted feed rye berries compares in flavor and mashing/fermenting difficulties.

I've run into the same exact aromas with my unmalted rye recipes comprising of 15% rye in the mash bill
100% unmalted rye is more vegetal and astringent. ever chewed mature canary grass? requires many much time in the oak. no bueno white imho.
Crap. And I hear attempting to malt is hell
maybe just use a bit, like 5 or 10% to get the flavour. as a 100% straight up spirit, it will haunt yer tastebuddies...well, the ones that survive anyway. LOL
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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