Protecting a very solid "wash"

Information about fruit/vegetable type washes.

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NormandieStill
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Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by NormandieStill »

So this is a fun one. I found a "recipe" (from a 19th century French book and a little terse) for making sloe brandy. It was a good year for sloes so I decided to have at it. The thing is, that there's very little added water (3L per 20L of berries) so at best the wash could be described as a slurry. The pectinase that I added at the start and the sloe (sorry) conversion of sugars to alcohol have liquidised it somewhat but it is still a very solid wash.

I'll be stripping it on a steam stripper (when I've built it), but the recipe calls for a long maceration post-fermentation on the stones and pulp to extract maximum flavour (and hydrogen cyanide probably). To quote (translation is mine, I'll publish the full recipe and my method later).

"After the fermentation, the barrel is hermetically sealed. The flesh of the sloe detaches from the stone. After three to four months, we distill as before (refers to the non-macerated version)."

The last two times I pushed the cap down, the cap was noticeably less dry and there was some liquid pooling at the top. I've now left the fermenting bucket sealed for a few days, and the plan is to put the bucket out in the shed so that it can enjoy the refreshingly cold winter temperatures. What I'm somewhat scared of is that if I keep opening it to check on it, it'll lose it's protective cover of CO2. Most of all, I don't want to find that it's gone mouldy and I don't know if the locked in CO2 will be enough to protect it from mould. I thought about pouring a thin layer of water over the top, but I suspect that it'll just be absorbed into the pulp. Would an oil (food-grade, probably sunflower) work to seal out the non-yeasties without modifying the flavour, or do I just check it every 2 weeks as carefully as possible and run it as soon as there's the slightest sign of growth?
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renedox
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by renedox »

What I do with fruit washes is after punching the cap down the first few days is to leave it for a few days, punch down any cap still there, then let it do its thing. As things ferment, not only does the CO2 help keep mould and stuff away, the alcohol produced does too.

Never fermented sloe before or even know if my process is correct but it has worked for me so far.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I did a lot of research recently about infected washes as I had it happen for the first time on a large batch of apple brandy. It looked, smelled and tasted like lacto, but was likely a mixture of stuff. Still made a tasty brandy through!

Your worry is not wrong, opening and closing the lid when your fermentation is finished will mix oxygen in the headspace. If oxygen makes contact with the surface of the liquid, it becomes a breeding ground for aerobic microbes, some of which could already be dormant in the must if you didn’t sulfite it, the worst offender being acetobacter.

My boneheaded ass thought it would be a good idea to ferment 20 gallons of cider in my 50 gallon kettle since I do it with bourbon all the time. LOTS of headspace. The lid does not tightly seal and I must have made the mistake of opening and looking down inside too close to the end of the ferment, or the air just got in naturally.

One tip I saw was if you plan to take a peek and introduce oxygen, you can sprinkle a tiny bit of sugar on top to create some co2 and blow out the oxygen through the airlock.

One thing that could help you is cold temperatures. If your wash is out in the cold, the microbes will grow at a much slower pace.

If you know your ferment is completely done and has that protective blanket, just seal it up so no gas can get in or out.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by juana_b »

Or maybe re-direct the co2 from a new ferment into it?
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NZChris
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by NZChris »

If the ferment has finished and you need to replace the CO2 layer, put a handful of sugar in it.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by jonnys_spirit »

NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:01 pm If the ferment has finished and you need to replace the CO2 layer, put a handful of sugar in it.
+1 on that and check the pH. If it’s in range to a wine a low 3.2-3.6’ish will also help against infection.

Cheers!
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Dougmatt
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by Dougmatt »

A suggestion if you are concerned about oxidation from opening the lid would be to add a small amount of potassium metabisufite (.25 teaspoon per 5 gallons) This will scavenge free oxygen and last about 3 months with infrequent opening.

On the co2 “layer”, I don’t want to start an argument, but they’re really is no such thing as an “layer” and this is generally a myth. Gas is a permeable, and the molecules are always in motion (entropy). CO2 doesn’t form a “layer” so if oxygen is present under the lid (it is) then it will come in contact with the surface as they create an entropic mix. You can completely purge all oxygen with co2 (or argon) which is what the industry calls a “layer”, but once you introduce any oxygen into the mix (open lid, loose seal, etc), this “layer” is gone and oxygen will touch the surface. The co2 created by the yeast that is in solution does protect the wine for sometime as well because theres no “room” in solution for more gas (O2j to get in, but Over time, the co2 in the wine naturally leaves (degass) and the solution becomes susceptible to oxidation hence the potassium metabisufite suggestion.

Edit: the creation of that “layer” via purge has to be done in a specific way. Gases will mix in 10’s of seconds so I do not believe the “handful of sugar” suggestion would work.

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NZChris
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

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Dougmatt wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:23 pm A suggestion if you are concerned about oxidation from opening the lid would be to add a small amount of potassium metabisufite (.25 teaspoon per 5 gallons) This will scavenge free oxygen and last about 3 months with infrequent opening.
I hope you have good advice available for keeping the stink out of the final product.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:48 pm
Dougmatt wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:23 pm A suggestion if you are concerned about oxidation from opening the lid would be to add a small amount of potassium metabisufite (.25 teaspoon per 5 gallons) This will scavenge free oxygen and last about 3 months with infrequent opening.
I hope you have good advice available for keeping the stink out of the final product.
Agreed. You’re adding sulfur to your wash by adding sulfites. An infection would be better than that IMO…. As long as it’s not gonna turn your precious ethanol to vinegar.

Like I alluded go in my case, my brandy recently had a huge pellicle,
Last edited by BrewinBrian44 on Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by Ben »

I agree with the handful of sugar or a bit of juice. I would throw in something to let the yeast push out some CO2, air lock it and let them displace the remaining O2, leave it alone for the 4 months recommended. If you are really worried about being able to see it transfer to glass carboys.

Whether the blanket exists or not I have fruit ferments that have been under airlock for years, are not sulfited and are still not spoiled, even if the airlock dries out for a while the CO2 has kept things protected. It's common practice in home wine making.
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NormandieStill
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by NormandieStill »

OK. There's a relatively small amount of headspace in the bucket, and given the consistency I really don't want to try and get it into glass carboys. Tomorrow it'll get a sprinkle of sugar and then a trip out to the shed where it can gently stew until next year.And I will try and leave it well alone and focus on my other projects. Thanks for the input everyone.

Incidentally I did finally think to look up whether moulds can survive anaerobic conditions and it seems that while complete CO2 will kill them (or at least, prevent them from growing) the amount of O2 that they require is fairly small so while an active ferment will prevent them, one that has stopped or is slow enough is at risk. I'm going to be hoping for a decently cold winter.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by Dougmatt »

NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:48 pm I hope you have good advice available for keeping the stink out of the final product.
Yes. Copper mesh……. The metabisulfite would prevent oxidation by scavenging free oxygen into so2 and that small amount should be stripped by a little copper would it not? That said, perhaps oxidation isn’t that big of a deal in a Spirit to be distilled?
Ben wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:19 am I agree with the handful of sugar or a bit of juice. I would throw in something to let the yeast push out some CO2, air lock it and let them displace the remaining O2, leave it alone for the 4 months recommended. If you are really worried about being able to see it transfer to glass carboys.

Whether the blanket exists or not I have fruit ferments that have been under airlock for years, are not sulfited and are still not spoiled, even if the airlock dries out for a while the CO2 has kept things protected. It's common practice in home wine making.
The blanket at best exists during active fermentation, after that it normalizes to air %. Lots of articles on this (google “co2 blanket myth”).

In your case, I expect a low surface area to volume is likely slowing oxidation. Within a few months (to a year) there is no significant co2 left in that wine. It naturally degasses.

I make quite a bit of wine, and spend a lot of time on the wine making forums, While Sulfates are generally avoided, potassium metabisufite (kmeta) is used extensively and widely in home Wine making. I’ve taken some of my older wine with kmeta in it and made a couple of brandies that people seem to enjoy and do not smell any sulfur.

I’m interested in this response to its use in a planned distillate…. Again, maybe oxidation doesn’t matter to a distilled wine so it’s better to leave it out? That I don’t know….
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Dougmatt wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:29 pm Yes. Copper mesh……. The metabisulfite would prevent oxidation by scavenging free oxygen into so2 and that small amount should be stripped by a little copper would it not? That said, perhaps oxidation isn’t that big of a deal in a Spirit to be distilled?
Copper helps with sulfides like H2S (Hydrogen Disulfide) - eg; rotten egg smell

Sulfites are different. eg; SO2 / Potassium Metabisulfite / Sulfur Dioxide. Copper doesn't remove those and they are concentrated in distillate - At least I've had it in some brandies where I used much less than normal for the wines (less than half of the typical 1/4tsp KMETA per carboy per 3 month period). It burns the nose and has a very noxious smell when distilled. Not something you'd really want to drink.

H2O2 treatment can help but better to avoid it if possible. Odin has a spreadsheet and article around here to determine treatment amounts. I used that on low wines and it wasn't an issue. I'd do it again if I had the same problem but if I knew I was going to distill the wine I wouldn't use SO2 to protect it against oxidation or infection.

Both SO2 and H2S among others are natural byproducts of fermentation to varying degrees depending on the yeast and the fermentation environment.

Cheers!
-j

EDIT: For protecting the Sloe brandy long nap/ferment I'd measure pH and consider adjusting it down to the 3.2 range if needed as well as hitting it with a bit of sugar every so often like Chris suggested. The cooler environment will also help keep dissolved CO2 in the must at a molecular level which increases carbonic acid and further acidic protection against infections. Think about a cold soda and a warm soda.. The cold one will keep CO2 for longer. The warm one not so much... To accelerate degassing of wines (if needed) i'll warm it up to about 75*F and place under vacuum which works very well. I have had wines sit in carboy for over a year that didn't degas yet because they were in a pretty cool and stable environment ~65*F range...
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

Post by Dougmatt »

Thank you for this feedback. I have a lot of research ahead on this topic as there seems to be mixed opinions based on a quick search. I have a lot of older wines I haven’t consumed and was planning to make more brandy. This is an important topic for me to understand but I I don’t want to derail this thread further so last post here.

Thanks again.
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Re: Protecting a very solid "wash"

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Dougmatt wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:11 am Thank you for this feedback. I have a lot of research ahead on this topic as there seems to be mixed opinions based on a quick search.
That is why I view forums as sources of inspiration and direction, rather than sources of gospel truth.
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