Controller double check

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bcook608
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Soooo I'm making the jump to 220v. Can I just make a couple changes to the one I built and be good to go?

Replace ssr with a 60A instead of 40
Swap all 120v wiring with 220v wire (6ga)

I have ensured all parts are capable of at least a 50A load
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Ben
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

How much amperage is your element? Is it still the 6500w?

A 40A SSR is good to about 7000w continuous on 220v. (40x220x0.8 for overhead) which should be plenty for a 6500w element.
8 GA wiring will handle the same 40A, 6 is fine too.
Most of the wiring conversion is changing out the neutral feed on your element to the second leg of 110. Should be reasonably straight forward.

I would recommend changing out your power switch for a high power electromagnetic relay, controlled by a switch. That way when you hit the power switch it kills all power to the box. If you aren't killing both lines and the neutral is still active you still have 110v at the box.
:)
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:51 am How much amperage is your element? Is it still the 6500w?

A 40A SSR is good to about 7000w continuous on 220v. (40x220x0.8 for overhead) which should be plenty for a 6500w element.
8 GA wiring will handle the same 40A, 6 is fine too.
Most of the wiring conversion is changing out the neutral feed on your element to the second leg of 110. Should be reasonably straight forward.

I would recommend changing out your power switch for a high power electromagnetic relay, controlled by a switch. That way when you hit the power switch it kills all power to the box. If you aren't killing both lines and the neutral is still active you still have 110v at the box.
I was going to upgrade to a 9kw element which will get me 41A on a 50A breaker

Do you have a link to a switch you recommend?
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B098D ... =UTF8&th=1

You can control this with any low amp switch you want. I use one similar to this (choices are almost limitless): https://www.amazon.com/a12082000ux0309- ... 125&sr=1-5

Edit: Thinking about it, you could run that relay off the power switch you already use. Its just a gateway for the 220.
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Re: Controller double check

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Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:17 am https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B098D ... =UTF8&th=1

You can control this with any low amp switch you want. I use one similar to this (choices are almost limitless): https://www.amazon.com/a12082000ux0309- ... 125&sr=1-5


Edit: Thinking about it, you could run that relay off the power switch you already use. Its just a gateway for the 220.
My controller setup gets shut down and unplugged after every run, do I still need that?

If so, I guess I'll have to figure out how to wire it up.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

You should always have a way to completely kill power to the box instantly, how you do that is totally up to you. I like this setup because if the still starts doing something strange, or something happens with the electricity, I can bang that switch and immediately kill all electrical. My wiring is all twist lock so it takes time to get things disconnected. If I start to see a boil over happening in a sight glass I don't think about what to do, or if I am pumping (my box also controls pump) I can bang the same switch, if my dog finds an open contact to lick, same switch.

Wiring is easy. You have the two legs of the 240v in, and you have 2 options on the output. Just wire everything into the normally open side of the outputs.

It has 2 posts on the side that energize the coil (when the coil is energized the contactors move and it goes from open to closed contacts), one of these can be one of the two 220v legs jumped straight across with a simple jumper wire. The other goes to whatever switch you want to use.

Diagram is here. They are using one with a 120v coil, the one I linked is a 220v coil. Pick whatever you want to wire up.
image.png
I like these because they are extremely heavy duty and can handle full current draw while producing very little heat, and require almost no electricity to operate. An SSR will heat up, and can fail closed. These don't, if the coil fails they fail open.
:)
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Re: Controller double check

Post by shadylane »

Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:02 am
I like these because they are extremely heavy duty and can handle full current draw while producing very little heat, and require almost no electricity to operate. An SSR will heat up, and can fail closed. These don't, if the coil fails they fail open.
I hear what you're saying, but I'll disagree.
Mechanical relays fail "closed" more often than a solid state relay.
When contacts get worn, the connection gets intermittent, heat builds up and the points often weld together. Mechanical relays also use springs to open the contacts.
When it comes to durability. Solid state doesn't wear out, mechanical will. :ewink:
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

That makes sense. I have had more trouble with SSR's, but it's a tiny sample size :)
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Re: Controller double check

Post by quadra »

The design Ben posted above is from the Electric Brewery website and needs the rest of the design information to make clear what the intent is, the short answer is that the mechanical relays are not actively switching the working load they are safety disconnects for the SSR. SSR do fail open and even when working properly can leak current in both directions. SSR are excellent for high frequency switching, PWM applications when sized properly (2x max load ) and have adequate heat sinks for the load they are switching. The risk of SSR failure in energized mode and the danger of leakage mean the extra layer of safety the mechanical relay provides ensures the power is completely disconnected when the relays are not active and allows an emergency disconnect switch to be added to the controller as well. A properly sized power rated mechanical relay is designed to switch high amp loads ( 1.5-2× max load ) and almost every single one I have seen weld itself shut was either overloaded or well out of its normal service life.
More information on the controller is covered on this page:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/contr ... -2?page=13
The rest of the controller build is well worth the read and full of great information! ..as is the entire site.
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Re: Controller double check

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Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:17 am https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B098D ... =UTF8&th=1

You can control this with any low amp switch you want. I use one similar to this (choices are almost limitless): https://www.amazon.com/a12082000ux0309- ... 125&sr=1-5

Edit: Thinking about it, you could run that relay off the power switch you already use. Its just a gateway for the 220.
So, if I add that at the beginning of the circuit, I should be protected?
I am using a 3-wire cord so I don't know if that changes the plan. I figured if I used a 3-wire, I would be able to simply switch out the wiring to make sure it could handle the amperage. Switching out the SSR would really be the only thing that would need to happen, right?
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Re: Controller double check

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:01 am Nice job bcook .

Have you had a chance to run it .How bad is the Meter reading when you turn down the power ?
Is it better when you you use Burst-fire verses Time proportional modes .
I've ran this a few times and the readings do bounce up and down, but I can still get a general idea of the average wattage being used. I still base my repeatability on the percentage readings from the DSPR1, so if it ran well at 30% for the spirit run, that's the number I start at once everything is up to temp.

Now I'll have to get used to everything all over again once I make the switch to 220v
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Re: Controller double check

Post by shadylane »

quadra wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:31 am
... almost every single one I have seen weld itself shut was either overloaded or well out of its normal service life.
The #1 relay killer is loose wire connections.
That's why I hate to see crimp on connectors used for carrying very much current.
Don't get me wrong, my controller has a mechanical relay on the power input side.
If anything goes wrong, it will unlatch and shut off everything but the cooling water.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

bcook608 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:34 am
Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:17 am https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B098D ... =UTF8&th=1

You can control this with any low amp switch you want. I use one similar to this (choices are almost limitless): https://www.amazon.com/a12082000ux0309- ... 125&sr=1-5

Edit: Thinking about it, you could run that relay off the power switch you already use. Its just a gateway for the 220.
So, if I add that at the beginning of the circuit, I should be protected?
I am using a 3-wire cord so I don't know if that changes the plan. I figured if I used a 3-wire, I would be able to simply switch out the wiring to make sure it could handle the amperage. Switching out the SSR would really be the only thing that would need to happen, right?
You should have a 4 wire GFCI input, the neutral goes to a neutral bus and breaks off from there. Ground goes to the chassis and splits out from there, or can be bussed, as long as the chassis is grounded. The two hots go through the relay. If you need a leg for 110 you break it off after the main relay.
:)
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Ben wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:42 am
bcook608 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:34 am
Ben wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:17 am https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B098D ... =UTF8&th=1

You can control this with any low amp switch you want. I use one similar to this (choices are almost limitless): https://www.amazon.com/a12082000ux0309- ... 125&sr=1-5

Edit: Thinking about it, you could run that relay off the power switch you already use. Its just a gateway for the 220.
So, if I add that at the beginning of the circuit, I should be protected?
I am using a 3-wire cord so I don't know if that changes the plan. I figured if I used a 3-wire, I would be able to simply switch out the wiring to make sure it could handle the amperage. Switching out the SSR would really be the only thing that would need to happen, right?
You should have a 4 wire GFCI input, the neutral goes to a neutral bus and breaks off from there. Ground goes to the chassis and splits out from there, or can be bussed, as long as the chassis is grounded. The two hots go through the relay. If you need a leg for 110 you break it off after the main relay.
Well, I already have the $200 extension cord so I guess I'll just replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker and call it good.
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Re: Controller double check

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Well, I got everything wired up and can't get the relay to work. I jumped one side to the control and wired the other 2 a switch (double pole). The switch lights up, but no matter what position it's in, the light stays on and the magnet doesn't engage. Can anyone help troubleshoot?

I know it's a mess, but here's the guts. If anyone needs a wiring diagram, I'll have to sit down and draw one out.
20230117_190902.jpg
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Re: Controller double check

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20230117_191105.jpg
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Re: Controller double check

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Should I have used a single pole switch?
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Here is a very crude wiring diagram. Fans, DSPR1, and ammeter not shown. Simply the power routing.


Where should I wire the other half of my switch? The white bar? The red bar pre relay?


20230117_192314.jpg
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

What is the voltage for the coil supposed to be? Those can be activated by AC, DC, at multiple voltages depending on model.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by shadylane »

First major problem is on the power in cord.
In the USA the green wire is only used for grounds.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by shadylane »

bcook608 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:50 pm Soooo I'm making the jump to 220v. Can I just make a couple changes to the one I built and be good to go?

Replace ssr with a 60A instead of 40
Swap all 120v wiring with 220v wire (6ga)

I have ensured all parts are capable of at least a 50A load
Are you planning on a 12Kw heater?
10gage wire is big enough for 5500w
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:30 am
bcook608 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:50 pm Soooo I'm making the jump to 220v. Can I just make a couple changes to the one I built and be good to go?

Replace ssr with a 60A instead of 40
Swap all 120v wiring with 220v wire (6ga)

I have ensured all parts are capable of at least a 50A load
Are you planning on a 12Kw heater?
10gage wire is big enough for 5500w
9kw :)
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Ben wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:39 am What is the voltage for the coil supposed to be? Those can be activated by AC, DC, at multiple voltages depending on model.
I'm not sure, it's the one you recommended above.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Ben »

Verify your order. It should be the 220v AC coil.

The coil switching can't go through bus, if the bus is switched. It has to have a hot at all times circuit, one hot black one red, and you put the switch inline on one of those.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Ben wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:23 am Verify your order. It should be the 220v AC coil.

The coil switching can't go through bus, if the bus is switched. It has to have a hot at all times circuit, one hot black one red, and you put the switch inline on one of those.
so the bottom red and black busses are always hot, the busses at the top are the ones that are powered after the relay connects. I'll try swapping the wiring around and isolate the switch. I had to use those busses at the bottom because I have 6ga stranded coming in and wanted an easy way to switch from the stranded 6 to a solid 10ga.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Yummyrum »

It’s best to use stranded . Solid makes poorer connections creating hot spots .
Stranded flattens when connections are made creating more contact area .
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Re: Controller double check

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Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:02 pm It’s best to use stranded . Solid makes poorer connections creating hot spots .
Stranded flattens when connections are made creating more contact area .
I don't know if I'd be able to fit 6ga stranded in my enclosure. I need it to be able to handle 50a max draw since I'm building this to control a 9kw element that will draw around 40A+/- when turned all the way up.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by quadra »

There are a bunch of things you really should change .. green is ground.
North American "220" is actually split phase 240 unless you have very poor power service. That is important because if you actually are dropping to 220 the current draw will increase from 37 to almost 41 Amps with a 9Kw load. And the minimum wire size you should be using is 8g those 10g pigtails could turn into fusible links- more so because they are solid conductor and are going to get hot at those screw connections because of re duced conducter area...
Your heat sink on the SSR is going to make 40W of heat while the elements are firing up the boiler and I would keep an eye on the temperature and that hot heatsink is almost touching a couple turns of electric tape that black bus wire connector is insufficiently insulated with :shock:
If you have a spare fan cover open up the back of the box under the heatsink so the fresh air is pulled in right against it surface.
Take some time to build this to last and you will not need to worry about it down the road.

I think the reason it is not working is your start stop switch. That switch is a DPDT and I see two wire leading from it to your white bus ( ground ) ...... nothing from that switch should be connected to ground! and you should only need to be connecting the two wires from the relay coil and black bus across one set of the switch terminals ( line/load) the way it is wired now it looks like you are probably sending 120v from the black bus into your ground circuit... and since that is tied to the ground on you heating element, you have now energized your still and are about to electrocute yourself with potentially 40A of 120v AC. ... luckily, the red leg ( with the white wire from the red bus.. that is actually the green line in ( but not the ground, )) to the coil is only at 120v potential relative to the ground connection and is not able to energize the coil and switch on the relay
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Re: Controller double check

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quadra wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:26 am There are a bunch of things you really should change .. green is ground.
North American "220" is actually split phase 240 unless you have very poor power service. That is important because if you actually are dropping to 220 the current draw will increase from 37 to almost 41 Amps with a 9Kw load.
You’ve got this wrong.

A 9kW (resistive) element will conduct (9000 / 240) = 40.9 amps with a 240 VAC supply rail. But, the current conducted is a function of the voltage, not the “power rating” of the element. The element is a resistor (maybe with a trace amount of inductance) and it is approximately 240 x 240 / 9000 = 6.4 ohms, and that is constant regardless of the voltage (at least until you burn up the resistor by applying a voltage exceeding the resistor’s rated voltage).

So, if the rail voltage is 220 VAC, then the current conducted is 220 / 6.4 = 34.4 amps. And the power dissipated is 220 x 34.4 x 34.4 = 7563 watts. So, the power is reduced because the voltage (the motive force for conduction) is less. And keep in mind that the element is rated for a supply voltage defined by the peak potential, not the RMS value.
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Re: Controller double check

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quadra wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:26 am There are a bunch of things you really should change .. green is ground.
North American "220" is actually split phase 240 unless you have very poor power service. That is important because if you actually are dropping to 220 the current draw will increase from 37 to almost 41 Amps with a 9Kw load. And the minimum wire size you should be using is 8g those 10g pigtails could turn into fusible links- more so because they are solid conductor and are going to get hot at those screw connections because of re duced conducter area...
Your heat sink on the SSR is going to make 40W of heat while the elements are firing up the boiler and I would keep an eye on the temperature and that hot heatsink is almost touching a couple turns of electric tape that black bus wire connector is insufficiently insulated with :shock:
If you have a spare fan cover open up the back of the box under the heatsink so the fresh air is pulled in right against it surface.
Take some time to build this to last and you will not need to worry about it down the road.

I think the reason it is not working is your start stop switch. That switch is a DPDT and I see two wire leading from it to your white bus ( ground ) ...... nothing from that switch should be connected to ground! and you should only need to be connecting the two wires from the relay coil and black bus across one set of the switch terminals ( line/load) the way it is wired now it looks like you are probably sending 120v from the black bus into your ground circuit... and since that is tied to the ground on you heating element, you have now energized your still and are about to electrocute yourself with potentially 40A of 120v AC. ... luckily, the red leg ( with the white wire from the red bus.. that is actually the green line in ( but not the ground, )) to the coil is only at 120v potential relative to the ground connection and is not able to energize the coil and switch on the relay
So I unhooked and rewired the switch from the red and back bus as line in and from the switch to the coil and it works but is only sending 120v through the system. I'm assuming because it's a 120v switch but Idk how to correct it.

Also, I wired the plugs so the white is on the neutral/ground terminal. I can switch it but it doesn't seem to matter as long as all terminals are hooked up the same across all my plugs.
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