Lacto fermented sugar wash

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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B_Stilling
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Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by B_Stilling »

Yes you've read that right. After falling way too deep down the rabbit hole on secundairy lactobacterial fermentation and the effects on whisky I decided to run a little experiment. Hear me out; the 2% salt wash will basically make the wash only suitable for lactic acid bacteria and prevent mold and yeast doing their thing. Its a technique one would use when preserving pickles, sauerkraut, etc. Its basically the same concept as making Kvass (thats basically lactofermented bread + sugar).

10L wash
1,5kg sugar
200gr salt
No yeast

Might throw a blueberry (just had wild ones) or a piece of bread in there but I think I might decide against that and go with a pure lacto fermented sugar sugarwash and see what it does.

No clue how long this will run for, but I plan distilling it. Will report back!
NormandieStill
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by NormandieStill »

Not sure if your pure lacto will produce any alcohol. Been making sauerkraut for a few years and feeding it to my kids and I've not seen any signs of intoxication. Think you might need to ferment out with yeast and then inoculate with lacto to isolate the flavour profile.

Interesting experiment though.
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B_Stilling
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

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NormandieStill wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:10 am Not sure if your pure lacto will produce any alcohol. Been making sauerkraut for a few years and feeding it to my kids and I've not seen any signs of intoxication. Think you might need to ferment out with yeast and then inoculate with lacto to isolate the flavour profile.

Interesting experiment though.
It depends. Lactic Acid Bacteria is just a collective term for bacteria that are salt and acid tolerant and digest carbohydrates to produce lactic acid.
Homofermentative (or homolactic) LAB only produce lactic acid. They prefer temperatures between 86 to 95°F (30–35°C), though they grow at lower temperatures as well. They produce flavors characterized by dairy, cream, or yogurt notes.
Heterofermentative (or heterolactic) LAB produce lactic acid, but also acetic acid, ethanol, and even carbon dioxide, depending on conditions. These bacteria thrive at temperatures between 59 and 72°F (15–22°C), but can grow over a much wider range as well. They impart a sharper, more vinegar-like tang to foods, likely due to the extra production of acetic acid.
The above (https://www.seriouseats.com/science-of-lactic-acid-fermentation-preservation) leads me to believe a cool lacto ferment at about room temperature should be able to produce some ethanol (albeit smaller quantities than yeast fermentation). It probably needs to be distilled at least once to be noticeable in a drink. Kvass is usually 0.5 to 3% ABV, altough there might be some wild yeast involved there.

Getting slammed on sauerkraut is actually hilarious btw.
NormandieStill
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by NormandieStill »

B_Stilling wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:10 am It depends. Lactic Acid Bacteria is just a collective term for bacteria that are salt and acid tolerant and digest carbohydrates to produce lactic acid.
Homofermentative (or homolactic) LAB only produce lactic acid. They prefer temperatures between 86 to 95°F (30–35°C), though they grow at lower temperatures as well. They produce flavors characterized by dairy, cream, or yogurt notes.
Heterofermentative (or heterolactic) LAB produce lactic acid, but also acetic acid, ethanol, and even carbon dioxide, depending on conditions. These bacteria thrive at temperatures between 59 and 72°F (15–22°C), but can grow over a much wider range as well. They impart a sharper, more vinegar-like tang to foods, likely due to the extra production of acetic acid.
The above (https://www.seriouseats.com/science-of-lactic-acid-fermentation-preservation) leads me to believe a cool lacto ferment at about room temperature should be able to produce some ethanol (albeit smaller quantities than yeast fermentation). It probably needs to be distilled at least once to be noticeable in a drink. Kvass is usually 0.5 to 3% ABV, altough there might be some wild yeast involved there.

Getting slammed on sauerkraut is actually hilarious btw.
My sauerkraut ferments are room-temp (~20C given I make it in autumn) and definitely produce CO2. I suspect that a wild yeast / lacto mix (which is essentially what a sourdough starter is IIRC) might get you some alcohol, but I'd be concerned that the flavour difference would just be lost by the time you'd triple-distilled or run it through a column in order to get the abv up. Keep us posted in any case. For curiosity's sake I'll probably add a lacto-infected sugar wash to my experiment list, but I don't think I'll get a chance before next year... or possibly the year after... too many damn ideas, not enough time.
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B_Stilling
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

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My sauerkraut ferments are room-temp (~20C given I make it in autumn) and definitely produce CO2. I suspect that a wild yeast / lacto mix (which is essentially what a sourdough starter is IIRC) might get you some alcohol, but I'd be concerned that the flavour difference would just be lost by the time you'd triple-distilled or run it through a column in order to get the abv up. Keep us posted in any case. For curiosity's sake I'll probably add a lacto-infected sugar wash to my experiment list, but I don't think I'll get a chance before next year... or possibly the year after... too many damn ideas, not enough time.
Hehe, choices, choices... Its why I post my experiments tough, so you can at least have some knowledge from my results :D

Room temp will probably be a mix of wild yeast and lacto indeed. Tough I hope to get primarily a lacto fermented wash as the salt should prevent traditional fermentation or any other infections.
I think I will just distill this once since I only am making a 10 liter batch. After comparing single distilled lacto to single distilled yeast sugar wash I will probably toss them together anyway to make some gin hehe.
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

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So yesterday I put the salt and sugar in a pot hoping some would dissolve a bit over night. It didnt. So I heated up the pot and dissolved it, put it in a fermentation vessel and took a SG of 1.058 @ 37C. Adjusted for temp thats a 1.062 SG. I am actually leaving the lid off so it can cool a bit (and hopefully pick up some bacteria :P) and close it off later today with a lid + air lock.
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Steve Broady
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by Steve Broady »

I’m curious to hear if this ever yielded anything drinkable?
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B_Stilling
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

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Steve Broady wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:19 pm I’m curious to hear if this ever yielded anything drinkable?
Short answer: no! :D

So I did check in on the forgotten bucket in my garden the 5th of november but didnt get to posting an update yet.

So I sort of forgot about the bucket which has been standing in my backyard with temps fluctuating between 2 and 24 degrees I'd say. I took a gravity reading of 1.082 (temp adjusted) which is weird because its higher than my SG :wtf:

The bucket contained probably little to no alcohol at all. Upon swirling the liquid around it looked exactly like thick syrup thats dissolved in water. The little alcohol that might have been there was probably dissapated over time (the water lock was still allright tho). In the end I decided it would not be worth distilling because of this reason.

Curious as I was I nosed the concoction and I got notes of fresh shortcake that masked the smell of a dirty swimming pool. Over time the shortcake smell seemed to dissapate which made me second guess my judgement. The shortcake smell reminded me of Glenrothes on hogsheads, so I checked their fermentation times but sadly its just 55-60 hours for the Glenrothes ferment. Would be cool to find a connection there between shortcake fruity notes on the nose and long fermentation times that allows for more lactobacillic fermentation to happen, but alas, here we are!
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I think the bread you mentioned in kvass probably supplies some yeast?

That doesn't look like a lacto pellicle to me.

I'd try a regular sugar wash recipe and also inoculate with some LAB.. The pH and ETOH from the sugar wash ferment could be tailored to prevent other organisms and you wouldn't need the salt.. Or perhaps add salt at some point after AF and spike it with some sort of lacto?

Were you thinking of potstilling this or refluxing it?

Cheers!
-j
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B_Stilling
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Re: Lacto fermented sugar wash

Post by B_Stilling »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:46 pm I think the bread you mentioned in kvass probably supplies some yeast?

That doesn't look like a lacto pellicle to me.

I'd try a regular sugar wash recipe and also inoculate with some LAB.. The pH and ETOH from the sugar wash ferment could be tailored to prevent other organisms and you wouldn't need the salt.. Or perhaps add salt at some point after AF and spike it with some sort of lacto?

Were you thinking of potstilling this or refluxing it?

Cheers!
-j
Not sure, the bread I use has been frozen and toasted in the pan. I think the heat should kill off most yeast, but its probable that some yeast got in there indeed.

I had to google lacto pellicle, interesting stuff. I think its just mold in my picture.

Innoculating might be an interesting experiment. I added the salt to make it basically a sugar wash brine so that it would prevent regular fermentation, just like sauerkraut. The original idea was potstilling, I dont own a reflux and the best outcome of the experiment would an interesting taste.

Thanks for the innoculating-idea, might rerun this in future :-)
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