Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Uncle Jesse
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Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Uncle Jesse »

Check it out folks, Haggy learned javascript so he could make and contribute this calculator. I've added it to the Wiki.

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Calculators

How about some comments, suggestions, and testing/verifying please. I listed it third on the list, is this the right place for it?

And a big, big thanks to Haggy for such an excellent resource!

Edit: I am attaching an Excel version of Haggy's calculator which you can download and use. This works in either Microsoft Excel or LibreOffice Calc. LibreOffice is free and emulates Microsoft Office.

Thanks again Haggy!
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HMT PotThumper Calculator.xlsx
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Kareltje
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Kareltje »

Very good! Haggy has worked very hard on it and deserves the honour.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

There's a lot going on in that spreadsheet! I'll be running some tests in a few weeks on my controller, will be neat to compare my real world data to the calculator.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Yummyrum »

Nice
I was wondering if the “units” could be made an option

IE ,Volume in Litres / imp Gal /US Gal and temp in °F or °C .

At the moment its in °C and Gal ( not sure what Gallons it is )

I plugged some numbers into it from a thumper run I did in the weekend at it seems in the ball park .
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by haggy »

Uncle Jessie,
Thanks for adding this work to the Calculator section. It can be seen/used by all there. And for adding the Excel version attachment.

The Calculator html version gives results in a Table and values for many other variables above the Table. The Excel version gives graphs of the key results and a more detailed Table and other results to the right of the Table.

Yummyrum,
Thanks for the comment. I will make the Input Data have an option for C or F and for US gal or liters. I just figured out how to do that.
But the Results Table is another matter. I will look into it - try having an option in units like the above. One thing that I know I can do is make two Results Tables, one in F and US gal units, and one in C and liter units.

To all users of the calculator:
Please read the comments at the top of the page, they give instructions on the use of the calculator and a description of the main concepts of the model.
A key item is the power ( Watts ) input. You should use a value obtained from your run data. Three ways to get the Watts are:
1. Vary the Power for Heat-up Watts until the "Time to Heat up Pot contents" is close to the time to heat up your pot
2. Find the Pot Distillation Watts to give close to the predicted and measured initial mL/min thumper vapor rate
3. Find the Pot Distillation Watts to give close to the predicted and measured Pot ending volume at the end time of the Table

Other key items are the thumper initial temperature and the thumper total volume and initial charge volume. Be as accurate on these as you can. The last two determine the open unfilled vessel wall area where vapor can condense and give heat losses. Heat loss in the thumper is a main contributor to the exit vapor rate and ABV.

Good luck in using the calculator, I hope it helps users to better understand how their unit is running and what happens if you change any of the Input Data values. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Haggy
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

haggy wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 am The Calculator html version gives results in a Table and values for many other variables above the Table.
I logged an on grain stripping run today and compared the results to the HTML version of the calculator.
The Setup:
~65°F ambient temperature.
15 gal of mostly cleared, 8% wash in a 1/2 barrel keg boiler @ 65°F.
5 gal of grain slop in a 1/2 barrel keg thumper (lots of grain, not a lot of liquid), from the same 8% wash that went into the boiler @ 65°F.
5500W element @ 100% for the entire run (closer to 5600W per the volt/amp meter)
DS18B20 Temp probes in boiler and vapor path (locations shown below).
Setup.jpg
Here's a screenshot of the settings used in the calculator:
The attachment Haggy_Settings.jpg is no longer available
The "best" data was measured directly via the temperature probes. After everything in the real world gets up to temperature, the calculator results are right inline with the measured data:
The attachment TempVTime.png is no longer available
Haggy's calculator doesn't step calculate boiler temp between start and boiling, so a straight line was added. The difference between actual boiling time vs calculated boiling time was less than 1 minute.
I believe the lag in thumper temperature is only due to the location of the probe, if it were actually in the thumper liquid, they would be spot on.

Haggy has 3 charts in the excel version of the calculator. I assume these are near and dear to his heart, so I will compare those next (calculated data is from HTML version, not excel version).
1.) Vapor ABV Vs Time:
The attachment VABVVTime.png is no longer available
We get some divergence here. I believe Haggy is using best fit polynomials to calculate ABV, while I am converting the temperature probe data using lookup tables with atmospheric pressure correction. I did not take hydrometer readings throughout the run, however if you'll note the black *, that is a hydrometer reading of the final collection (47% @ 78.6°F temp corrected to 43.15%). This is smack dab in the middle of the 2. On my next run, I'll try to take some reading along the way to get some additional data.

2.) Volume Vs Time:
The attachment VolVTime.png is no longer available
I measured the initial volumes going into and final volumes coming out of the boiler and thumper via graduation marks on 6 gallon fermenter buckers. I haven't verified the accuracy of these graduation marks so we'll just pretend that they're good.
I used the graduation marks on pint mason jars to measure the collection quantity. I did check these with a Pyrex measuring cup, they appeared to be in agreement.
Note that I had no way to measure the "pot vapor", so there is no data line for comparison. I was also unable to measure real time thumper and boiler volume, so a straight line was connected from the initial and final volumes.
The collection volume and pot volume align nicely. The final thumper volume is quite a bit off and appears to continue to diverge from the calculated result.

3.) Liquid ABV Vs Time:
The attachment LABVVTime.png is no longer available
Pretty good alignment here again after everything settles in.
Last edited by tjsc5f on Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

Final bit of graph showing product rates, measured with the above mentioned graduated pint mason jars and a stop watch.
RateVTime.png
Reasonably aligned here. The speed and accuracy at which I swapped jars and hit the lap button on the stop watch were questionable at best.

Nice work Haggy :thumbup:
If there are any other graphs you'd like to see, let me know.
Last edited by tjsc5f on Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by haggy »

Wow, great work tjfc5f,

Thanks for the vote of confidence in the calculator. It proves out there is some passive reflux I have seen in both the pot and thumper leading to a slightly higher ABV than expected.

Really impressed that you were able to compare both the liquid and distillate vapor ABV curves which were both in good agreement.

The thumper is about 1/3 full, so a lot of wall area is exposed. The heat losses are calculated as a function of this exposed wall area. So you verified the calculation of this important aspect of the thumper, the heat losses.

The main difference we see is that the final thumper volume is calculated higher than your measurement. It could be a density difference not accounted for in the model or maybe some material evaporated out of your pot. Check the final overall material balance in both the calculations and your data.

So, thanks for your work and the post. Good job. I will study the results further and have some more comments.

Haggy ( aka haggy )
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

haggy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:21 am Check the final overall material balance in both the calculations and your data.
Good point. Adding up my measured final boiler, thumper and collection values, I only get 18.6gal vs the 20gal that went in.
I did use different buckets for filling and emptying. I'll do some measuring/calibration on the buckets tonight and see if that changes anything.
I also opened up the clean outs shortly after I killed the power and they stayed open for several hours while cooling down. I'm sure there was some loss to evaporation but not sure how much.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by haggy »

tjsc5f,

Just a few minor comments on your graphs.

Temp vs Time
On the Temp vs Time graph, the thumper starts heating up when the pot starts boiling vapor over. This is at the 52 minute point. So the Haggy_Thump temperature should be 60 F at 52 minutes and rises for 20 minutes and starts boiling at 194 F at 72 minutes.

Vapor ABV vs Time
Graph is ok. This is from the HD html version. I will show later the Excel version curves, the Haggy_Pot vapor ABV curve is a little closer to the data. The Excel version takes 50 steps in time, the HD version takes 20 steps in time, so the Excel is a little more accurate. Plus the method of calculation and the VLE equations are different in the two versions, yet both come up with similar results.

Volume vs Time
Your Thump_Data curve should be revised. The first 20 minutes of thumper heatup ( from 52 min to 72 min ), vapor from the pot is all condensing in the thumper ( no vapor coming out the thumper ) so the thumper volume increases. The amount of increase is how much the pot volume has decreased. Yes, the density is different, but this is not in the calculations. The pot decrease and thumper increase is about 1.2 gal. Then from there on, the thumper volume change depends on the inflow and outflow rates.

The other graphs are fine. All the graphs are a good presentation. You have started time zero when the pot heatup starts. That is ok. The HD and Excel versions start time zero when the thumper heatup starts. I did this so as not to depend getting the pot heatup time spot on. Here we were good that the pot heatup calculation was accurate. In a new version of the HD calculator ( yet to be installed ), there is the option for gal or Liters and C or F.

So, here are the Excel results for the charts 1, 2 and 3. I changed them to agree with your timing, 0 minutes is when the pot starts heating up and 50 minutes is when the thumper starts heating up. Pretty good agreement with your HD version charts. Yes, I am proud of these charts.
image.png
image.png
image.png
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

Well it took some time and effort, but I managed to clean all of the egg off of my face...
As it turns out, the bucket I used to empty the still (HDX from Home Depot) had graduations that were accurate. The bucket I used to fill the still (Northern Brewer fermenter) had graduations that were not so great - the 5 gallon mark was actually 4.75 gallons. :oops:
My gallons in to gallons out are now 19 vs 18.7, still not perfect but within reason when considering eyeball error, spillage and other potential losses.
With less volume going into the still and thumper, values going into the calculator needed to be adjusted.
haggy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:21 am It proves out there is some passive reflux I have seen in both the pot and thumper leading to a slightly higher ABV than expected
I played around with the boiler reflux settings to get final boiler volume closer to my newly verified measured volumes. I am completely uninsulated, and the arm that goes from the boiler to the thumper is running downhill toward the boiler, so all of the passive reflux is returning to the boiler.
haggy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:21 am It could be a density difference not accounted for in the model or maybe some material evaporated out of your pot.
This got me thinking about the thumper charge. There's a lot of solids in there, but hard to say how much. I imagine there's less than 50% solids, which would put the ABV of the charge somewhere between 4 and 8%. I used 6% in the calculator with the new volumes.
haggy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:21 am The heat losses are calculated as a function of this exposed wall area.
I adjusted the total thumper volume and internal reflux to get a total collection value that matched my measured results.
In addition to the previously mentioned changes, I also fixed the time issues that Haggy had mentioned on the Temp vs Time and Volume vs Time graphs.
All in all the updated data shown below is in good agreement with the calculator and shown below:
HAGGY_SETTINGS.PNG
TempVTime.png
VABVVTime.png
VolVTime.png
LABVVTime.png
RateVTime.png
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Uncle Jesse »

tjsc5f wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm
haggy wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 am The Calculator html version gives results in a Table and values for many other variables above the Table.
I logged an on grain stripping run today and compared the results to the HTML version of the calculator.
The Setup:
~65°F ambient temperature.
15 gal of mostly cleared, 8% wash in a 1/2 barrel keg boiler @ 65°F.
5 gal of grain slop in a 1/2 barrel keg thumper (lots of grain, not a lot of liquid), from the same 8% wash that went into the boiler @ 65°F.
5500W element @ 100% for the entire run (closer to 5600W per the volt/amp meter)
DS18B20 Temp probes in boiler and vapor path (locations shown below).
Setup.jpg
Here's a screenshot of the settings used in the calculator:
Haggy_Settings.jpg

The "best" data was measured directly via the temperature probes. After everything in the real world gets up to temperature, the calculator results are right inline with the measured data:
TempVTime.png
Haggy's calculator doesn't step calculate boiler temp between start and boiling, so a straight line was added. The difference between actual boiling time vs calculated boiling time was less than 1 minute.
I believe the lag in thumper temperature is only due to the location of the probe, if it were actually in the thumper liquid, they would be spot on.

Haggy has 3 charts in the excel version of the calculator. I assume these are near and dear to his heart, so I will compare those next (calculated data is from HTML version, not excel version).
1.) Vapor ABV Vs Time:
VABVVTime.png
We get some divergence here. I believe Haggy is using best fit polynomials to calculate ABV, while I am converting the temperature probe data using lookup tables with atmospheric pressure correction. I did not take hydrometer readings throughout the run, however if you'll note the black *, that is a hydrometer reading of the final collection (47% @ 78.6°F temp corrected to 43.15%). This is smack dab in the middle of the 2. On my next run, I'll try to take some reading along the way to get some additional data.

2.) Volume Vs Time:
VolVTime.png
I measured the initial volumes going into and final volumes coming out of the boiler and thumper via graduation marks on 6 gallon fermenter buckers. I haven't verified the accuracy of these graduation marks so we'll just pretend that they're good.
I used the graduation marks on pint mason jars to measure the collection quantity. I did check these with a Pyrex measuring cup, they appeared to be in agreement.
Note that I had no way to measure the "pot vapor", so there is no data line for comparison. I was also unable to measure real time thumper and boiler volume, so a straight line was connected from the initial and final volumes.
The collection volume and pot volume align nicely. The final thumper volume is quite a bit off and appears to continue to diverge from the calculated result.

3.) Liquid ABV Vs Time:
LABVVTime.png
Pretty good alignment here again after everything settles in.
Am I the only one who can't see the images in this post? I see them in the admin pages as "orphaned attachments".
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by EricTheRed »

Uncle Jesse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:29 pm
Am I the only one who can't see the images in this post? I see them in the admin pages as "orphaned attachments".
nope - i don't see them either
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Uncle Jesse »

EricTheRed wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:33 pm
Uncle Jesse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:29 pm
Am I the only one who can't see the images in this post? I see them in the admin pages as "orphaned attachments".
nope - i don't see them either
Too bad since this thread has become amazing.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by tjsc5f »

Uncle Jesse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:29 pm Am I the only one who can't see the images in this post? I see them in the admin pages as "orphaned attachments".
I came back tonight to give some updates and noticed they were gone as well. I couldn't edit the post anymore so I just put the updated info in a new post.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Uncle Jesse »

tjsc5f wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:44 pm
Uncle Jesse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:29 pm Am I the only one who can't see the images in this post? I see them in the admin pages as "orphaned attachments".
I came back tonight to give some updates and noticed they were gone as well. I couldn't edit the post anymore so I just put the updated info in a new post.
The updated info is incredible. Thanks for the effort. I'm surprised you can't edit the post.
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Re: Haggy's Pot Sill + Thumper Calculator

Post by Bradster68 »

I'm collecting copper for my thumper now. This will come in very handy for a newb like me.
Thank u Haggy.🍻
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