Slow winter fermentation question?

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Newtothis
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Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Newtothis »

So I’m on my 7th generation of a slightly modified Ujssm fermentation, and it’s gotten dam chilly out. Maybe around 45 to 58 degrees daily. This batch started off at around 1.088 around 2 weeks ago and is currently around 1.038 which is slower than normal. Things still seem to be active and doing their thing, just at a slower tempo. No off smells or flavors at this point. So my question is, is it alright to just let it go at its own pace and not try to add any external heat to speed up the process of fermentation? I’m in no hurry really and if it doesn’t matter I’ll just let it go at it’s own pace.
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NZChris
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by NZChris »

Do you have any insulation wrapped around it to trap its own heat?
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Demy
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Demy »

I don't think it's a problem if you don't smell abnormal, if you can add insulation to the fermenter that would help as chris mentioned.
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shadylane
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by shadylane »

Newtothis wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:16 pm
... it’s gotten dam chilly out. Maybe around 45 to 58 degrees daily.
It's going to be a long time till spring.
If the room you're fermenting in is unheated, I'd start figuring how to warm things up.
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Newtothis »

NZChris wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:26 pm Do you have any insulation wrapped around it to trap its own heat?
Wrapped up in extra heavy moving blankets.
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Ben
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Ben »

Switch yeasts. S04 is dry yeast and very happy at 59° DADY doesn't like the cold as much. If you are willing to go to liquid there are options for even colder, but your main ferment should be 5+° warmer than ambient, 10+ if you are wrapped in blanket.

You can just add it to what you have, the yeast in the right temp range will take over. Save a bit of slurry out of your bed to repitch (just reserve some so you don't pour boiling backset over it).

If you are using a copper still head you can even switch to a dry lager yeast. Saflager german will get you down to 52°.
:)
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Deplorable
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Deplorable »

Your pH still okay? It's not stalled due to pH being too low is it?
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Like Deplorable said, check that ph.

I built a wood box out of OSB (oriented strand board) to put my fermenters in. I use zero insulation. I use a small electric space heater with a inexpensive temp controller. Just to be thorough I also plugged a small $5 fan into the controller too. When the heater kicks on, the fan does to. It recirculates the air in the box so it heats evenly throughout. I set the controller to maintain temp within 2F. Rarely does it kick on and when it does it doesn't stay on for long at all. Any kind of insulation can only make it more efficient.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

7.2 to 14.4 C outside temp......What is the temp where there Ferment is kept ?
What yeast are you currently using .....I cant seem to find that information?
If its bread yeast it should keep chugging along but will be damned slow.
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Jstroke »

Depends if you have room for another fermentor and what you consider a waste of time. Me personally, I would fire up another barrel and apply heat to it and let that one idle along just for giggles. Nothing wrong with slow as long as it’s worth the wait. Never know what nectar you might find you’ve created. But I like experiments and I’ve got plenty of cheer stored away for the winter.
If in doubt leave it out.
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squigglefunk
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by squigglefunk »

i think i've read here about the ujssm recipe as you get more generations in you have to just be careful on the amount of backset you're adding back in? maybe your "modified" recipe needs tweaks or more pH buffer

also like SBB and ben mentioned, the yeast info would help. Bakers will work like stated but there are better cold weather yeasts :)

I had a few different strains but my old lady keeps throwing them out! US05 is a good one too in addition to the one ben mentioned
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Newtothis »

So it’s still moving and smells really good. Currently sitting at 1.032 and slowly bubbling away. I’m in no rush really, I have a queens run to do and some other stuff. The yeast I used was daddy. The modified aspect of this was instead of just adding new corn to replace the old corn I did a enzyme corn mash and added that, about 15 lbs per run. With 24 lbs of sugar melted to the backset then cool water added to it to bring the temp down. Total is about 20 gallons per run this is the 8th run currently (maybe 7th).
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by seamusm53 »

I have run my fermenter inside the house - makes the house smell like you're making bread. In the garage in winter, I have used a heating blanket to insulate and keep it warm.
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NZChris
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by NZChris »

If the enzymes are still viable, ongoing conversion might explain the SG not dropping as you would expect. If you have a refractometer, start recording readings because there might be something to be learned from them.

Because the UJSSM method doesn't kill a lot of bugs, cold, slow, ferments can be wrecked if you get an infection. You can make a successful lager at low temperatures using low temperature yeasts, but undesirable bugs have been killed off by the process.

I ferment my UJSSMs at the same temperature, with the same yeast, all year round, regardless of what season it is. I do whatever I have to do to keep my yeast happy.
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shadylane
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by shadylane »

NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:45 pm If the enzymes are still viable, ongoing conversion might explain the SG not dropping as you would expect. If you have a refractometer, start recording readings because there might be something to be learned from them.
I'll have to disagree with that. The original gravity is what it is.
Just because the OG is high doesn't mean everything is fermentable.
It's the final gravity that tells how good the mash protocol and fermentation was.

On a side note.
After fermentation begins and there's alcohol present.
Many folks have been misled by refractometer readings. :ewink:
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NZChris
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by NZChris »

My speculation is based on this, "I did a enzyme corn mash and added that".

If there are viable enzymes remaining in the wash, they might still be converting starches from the UJSSM grains. We don't know that this isn't happening because Newtothis hasn't told us exactly what he did.

The SG of a wash containing working enzymes can remain stable while the abv of the wash rises. I've watched this happening when using Angel, Starter of Liquor Making.
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shadylane
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by shadylane »

NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:14 am
...If there are viable enzymes remaining in the wash, they might still be converting starches...
That's true.
NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:14 am
The SG of a wash containing working enzymes can remain stable while the abv of the wash rises.
That's not true, because.
As sugars are consumed the gravity decreases.
As alcohol is produced the gravity decreases even more.
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by Dougmatt »

shadylane wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:16 am That's not true, because.
As sugars are consumed the gravity decreases.
As alcohol is produced the gravity decreases even more.
Here’s what I believe happens with active enzymes and unconverted starch in an on going ferment.

First some points I will see if we can agree on:
- sugar affects SG
- starch affects SG
- unfermentable starches (plus fermentable and unconverted) that are available and dissolved in solution after mashing affect SG
- fermentable starches May still exist in the grains themselves if we didn’t appropriately gel the grain.

So if we agree to the above, then:

If the corn wasn’t fully Gel’ed, then the starch still in the grain is down in the grain bed so when the sample was pulled from the wash it would not have affected OG of the tested liquid.

As the enzymes attack and convert grain trapped starch, it will move that to the solution effectively raising SG again.

Then the yeast will ferment it out which could show up as a slow / stopped SG decline.

If this isn’t making sense, think about / look at threads on angel yeast. OG for angel yeast doesn’t matter because the starch is still in the grain. You have to figure out potential alc another ways.

EDIT: btw I’m not saying this is what is happening here so this may be off topic. I am simply trying to see if I can find the common ground between shady and chris :wave:
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
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NZChris
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Re: Slow winter fermentation question?

Post by NZChris »

shadylane wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:16 am
NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:14 am
The SG of a wash containing working enzymes can remain stable while the abv of the wash rises.
That's not true, because.
As sugars are consumed the gravity decreases.
As alcohol is produced the gravity decreases even more.
That is an observation. I have watched it happen in two ferments. The SG was stable at around 1.000 after the first three days, but the Refractive Index kept rising due to alcohol being produced as fast as the enzymes converted the last of the starch. The ferments went dead and cleared when the Index stopped rising.
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