Commercial Bourbon Rye

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tjsc5f
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Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by tjsc5f »

My favorite commercial bourbons come from Barton and Wild Turkey. From what I've read, both use around 15% rye.

Does anyone have experience using all of the readily available types of rye that can comment on the flavor profiles of each?

I've found a few older threads on the subject and the following seems to be the consensus:

Unmalted rye - hardest to work with, adds a "spicy" flavor, probably what I'm looking for to get closest to a commercial rye spice, but also haven't found a local source.

Flaked rye - easier to work with than unmalted, does not contribute as much flavor, readily available from local home brew store.

Malted rye - easiest to work with, completely different flavor than unmalted (floral maybe?), readily available from local home brew store.

Does that accurately sum it up?
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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I dont have any experience with unmalted rye, but on a recent run of 21% malted rye using safe ale t58 yeast at 68°f, I got a nice peppery spice in the white dog. I've yet to see how it's going to age out.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Twisted Brick »

I haven't worked with 100% unmalted rye, but had a bottle of this . Unmalted and unaged, it was a brutal drop from start to finish. Mildly grassy, unrefined, rough rye flavor - not pleasant. That said, several members have reported that a barrel aged 100% unmalted rye can be a wonderful drop, the key being proper time on oak is required.

Rye malt - Spicy, sweet, signature rye flavor. I have been successful in malting rye three different ways - pale, amber and caramel . Each style has a distinct rye flavor attribute. All three of these (along with raw rye) made it into my bourbon grain bill and nearly two years in a barrel, has developed a deep rye complexity.

I don't think of different grains as easier or more difficult to work with, just different. As long as you give each grain what it needs (rye = glucan rest) to be converted, you will be successful. There are multiple rye threads here outlining the challenges and solutions members have encountered. The amount of time saved by paying for flaked rye doesn't justify the cost, IMO.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by higgins »

FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.

The mash bill data that I refer to comes from https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:58 am FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.

The mash bill data that I refer to comes from https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/
Knob Creek is also 75/13/12. That makes a good drop IMHO. As a matter of fact, I have some waiting for the spirit run this weekend, and grains to make two more batches. My mash bill is viking malted rye, and 2 row pale malt.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by tjsc5f »

higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:58 am FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.
Yea, I was aware of those reported mash bills. I figured since I liked them both I'd go with a round number in between the 2. I kind of landed on a 75/15/10 wheated bourbon mash bill as my standard as well, so keeping it the same and just swapping wheat out for rye makes it easier for me to remember :D .
Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:48 pm Knob Creek is also 75/13/12. That makes a good drop IMHO. As a matter of fact, I have some waiting for the spirit run this weekend, and grains to make two more batches. My mash bill is viking malted rye, and 2 row pale malt.
I like Knob Creek too, the 9yr is hard to beat at that price point. The 12yr is exceptionally good.
Is the viking malted rye what you used in the 21% run you mentioned in the previous post?
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Deplorable »

It was.
The malts I try to keep on hand are viking rye malt, 2 row base malt, soft white wheat malt, and red wheat malt.
Corn I buy as I need it along with specialty malts.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Bushman »

Like others I have only used malted rye, my first batch or two are straight rye. Then I start multiple generations using the rye in combination with a variation of UJ’s recipe to make a bourbon.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Bushman wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:48 am Like others I have only used malted rye, my first batch or two are straight rye. Then I start multiple generations using the rye in combination with a variation of UJ’s recipe to make a bourbon.
I add a pound of unmalted flaked rye in a hops bag to my 3 gallon UJSSM batch as a adjunk. It ads a nice rye spice that carries over to the jar.

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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Ben »

I used to assume major distilleries used unmalted as well. I don't think so now though. Malted rye has very good diastatic power, a lot of these mash bills have relatively small amount of malted barley so my assumption now is they are malting the rye. Brands like wild turkey date prior to the advent of liquified enzymes, so I assume they use their original mash bills.

It's no more difficult to work with raw vs malted, proper glucan rest and rice hulls can help... in the ratios you are using I haven't found it necessary. As far as profiles, I've used a couple brands when doing my 88% malted rye whiskey. I have settled on proximity, partly because they are local, but I also found a little bit more petrichor in the white which I really liked. I also use it in my house bourbon at 18% and like it for that.

If you can, make a couple of very high rye whiskeys from different brands. Then you can see what each brings to the party. No one else can tell you what tastes good to you.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Bradster68 »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:48 pm
higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:58 am FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.

The mash bill data that I refer to comes from https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/
Knob Creek is also 75/13/12. That makes a good drop IMHO. As a matter of fact, I have some waiting for the spirit run this weekend, and grains to make two more batches. My mash bill is viking malted rye, and 2 row pale malt.
Thanks for the low down.ill be using that.🍻
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Deplorable »

Bradster68 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:01 pm
Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:48 pm
higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:58 am FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.

The mash bill data that I refer to comes from https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/
Knob Creek is also 75/13/12. That makes a good drop IMHO. As a matter of fact, I have some waiting for the spirit run this weekend, and grains to make two more batches. My mash bill is viking malted rye, and 2 row pale malt.
Thanks for the low down.ill be using that.🍻
If you use US-05 yeast, and take good care of the ferment at ~65°f and let it completely finish, and run cleared wash you'll be really happy with it.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Bradster68 »

Deplorable wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:13 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:01 pm
Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:48 pm
higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:58 am FWIW, Barton's mash bill is 74/18/8, Wild Turkey is 75/13/12.

The mash bill data that I refer to comes from https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/
Knob Creek is also 75/13/12. That makes a good drop IMHO. As a matter of fact, I have some waiting for the spirit run this weekend, and grains to make two more batches. My mash bill is viking malted rye, and 2 row pale malt.
Thanks for the low down.ill be using that.🍻
If you use US-05 yeast, and take good care of the ferment at ~65°f and let it completely finish, and run cleared wash you'll be really happy with it.
I'm switching from bakers now for my AG.
Iv got a couple ale yeast to try. Winter here now. Garage should be perfect temp
Thanks for that.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Deplorable »

Since you're branching out...
Try this
75% corn, 21% malted Viking Rye, and 4% pale malt. Ferment at 68°F with T-58, and age at 58% on untoasted medium char American Oak.
Red berries, and baking spice after 10 months, tasted at 58%. I have a BadMo full I plan to let go 2 to 3 years, so the 10 month old stuff in glass is showing incredible promise for what's in store with the Badmo.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Bradster68 »

Hmmm. Viking rye? Just checked my supplier has it. Its only 25 bucks more than the rye I usually get. So many choices :crazy:
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by Deplorable »

How much rye you buying? It's $3.09 a pound at morebeer.com. I don't see any reason a different malt house's rye wouldn't perform the same. It's just what I used. It looks to be about 60 cent a pound more than Briess currently. Try that. I think when I bought it, it was the cheaper rye malt offering.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

Post by 6 Row Joe »

$8 for 5# for rye malt from Mile High Distilling. https://milehidistilling.com/product/rye-malt-5-lbs-2/
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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6 Row Joe wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:35 pm $8 for 5# for rye malt from Mile High Distilling. https://milehidistilling.com/product/rye-malt-5-lbs-2/
Add 17.25 for standard shipping and it's $5.25 a pound. At that price I'd drive the 50 miles round trip to the HBS.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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Deplorable wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:20 pm How much rye you buying? It's $3.09 a pound at morebeer.com. I don't see any reason a different malt house's rye wouldn't perform the same. It's just what I used. It looks to be about 60 cent a pound more than Briess currently. Try that. I think when I bought it, it was the cheaper rye malt offering.
Is viking just the brand? I thought maybe it was something special?
I get a 55lb bag for 55 bucks. But I have to pickup.same as my barley malt. Every 2 months we head to town for supplies. I grab while I'm there. This guys been there for over 25 years and got anything I need or will order for me for next time I'm there.
Maybe a little pricey, but its Canadian price soooo :crazy:
I don't care though, gotta have it. Apparently the recipes just keep coming. :thumbup:
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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Yeah any malt house. It's not toasted or anything special. Just malted rye.
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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well, there is a certain advantage to living in the middle of the grain belt. malt rye runs less than a buck a pound here. finally! a win!
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Re: Commercial Bourbon Rye

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Indeed living in flyover country has its advantages, but its just so damned flat. :(
Im sure Ill find myself living farther from the coast after I retire. But I have to be near the mountains.
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