SPP Packing

[bunny]

For the sake of argument, just keep collecting the way you have been this morning. You have to reach the end of the heads sooner or later. Why there appears to be so much, I really don't know.

I thought the same, but too late, I been equalising at 4600w (RC can't handle much more) for a good 45mins, going to collect a little and see, it will be acetone.

Considering just how good your spp column is I doubt if much is going on with this additional refluxing.

[Hebden]

For the sake of argument, just keep collecting the way you have been this morning. You have to reach the end of the heads sooner or later. Why there appears to be so much, I really don't know.

I thought the same, but too late, I been equalising at 4600w (RC can't handle much more) for a good 45mins, going to collect a little and see, it will be acetone.

Considering just how good your spp column is I doubt if much is going on with this additional refluxing.

Well your right about that Bunny, collecting @540ml/h and temp adjusted ABV = 96.9% (0.1% increase), waste of energy at this stage.
Interestingly, vapour temp was previously fluctuating between 173.3-173.1, mainly 173.3. Now it is stuck at 172.9 so power up & vapour temp down.

[CopperFiend]

This doesn't seem normal to me. Have you collected all the way down to when the abv drops below 96%? I'd collect everything, leave it 24h with the jar lids cracked open and then taste and smell everything. If it all tastes like acetone, there's either a problem with the ferment/pot still run which has tainted your batch to make it taste like that or you aren't used to tasting new make spirit. Have you done a few pot still runs of whisky or rum etc to get your taste buds tuned in? Also I always taste at 40% as that's a more common strength and so your taste buds will be more used to it (commercial spirits).

Apologies if you're very experienced at tasting and cuts, though it is a common stumbling block initially as new make spirits can taste quite different to what you're used to commercially.

[Hebden]

This doesn't seem normal to me. Have you collected all the way down to when the abv drops below 96%? I'd collect everything, leave it 24h with the jar lids cracked open and then taste and smell everything. If it all tastes like acetone, there's either a problem with the ferment/pot still run which has tainted your batch to make it taste like that or you aren't used to tasting new make spirit. Have you done a few pot still runs of whisky or rum etc to get your taste buds tuned in? Also I always taste at 40% as that's a more common strength and so your taste buds will be more used to it (commercial spirits).

Apologies if you're very experienced at tasting and cuts, though it is a common stumbling block initially as new make spirits can taste quite different to what you're used to commercially.

I am an absolute novice tbh I have never done anything else Copper and I getting these acetone smells from catching drips off the shotgun and rubbing in my hands, I thought that was the way to do it. So I also just swished 1/2tsp product and 1tbsp water round my mouth, so ~17%ABV and I wouldn't want to drink it, certainly not the neutral I am after.

This is now my 2nd ferment and still it is the same, maybe your right and I smelling stuff I shouldn't worry about. This charge was 38.2L of 28%ABV.
I am running at a constant 172.9f again and producing >96%abv again.

I just don't get it, I don't think it can be the ferment as I have done two now, this one went textbook according to what I thought it should.

Could it be the actual packing or the way I am using it keeps coming into my mind.

[Saltbush Bill]

Just my experience from running a 3 inch Boka......Dont flood the column.......3,600w is more than enough power for a 3 inch......hell Ive run mine successfully on 2200 at times.
What is the theory behind slow heat up ?........waste of time if you ask me.

[ecir54]

Hebden whats your mashbill? yeast? I see you using cu scrubbers, what is your spp made of? what is you column made of?

[Hebden]

Just my experience from running a 3 inch Boka......Dont flood the column.......3,600w is more than enough power for a 3 inch......hell Ive run mine successfully on 2200 at times.
What is the theory behind slow heat up ?........waste of time if you ask me.

Yes Saltbush, I'm learning more power isn't necessarily necessary, whilst taking off foreshore I've noticed you can do 500ml/h with 2400w or 4000w, is there a benefit to using more or less power, I'm too inexperienced to know. But I'll use 2400w because it's less.

I think my column is happy at 2400w for take off, but when I need to move to hearts, is it OK to turn up to 3200w in one increase or should I drip feed extra power?

Hebden whats your mashbill? yeast? I see you using cu scrubbers, what is your spp made of? what is you column made of?

Eric, I use colum build up of:-
75mm copper scrubbers
1250mm SS spp 4.2mm x 4.2mm x 0 25mm
75mm copper scrubbers
1250mm copper column of 3" with SS ferrules

It seems to collect good abv's

My taste interpretation could be the issue, but I thought creating neutral would make neutral tasting products at the moment off the shotgun.

Yeast:-
https://www.capitalwholesalers.com/prod ... ated-yeast

Bill:-
145L drum wash
23kg sugar
500g yeast
4 x B12
4 x B12 complex
1/2 tsp Epson salts
3.3 tbsp DAP
295g CaCO3

Ran just nice and held steady at 4.9pH finished 8.35%abv.

Can I ask, does a sugar wash produce neutral flavours at the time it is produced, the day after as collection jars have aired or never?
Honestly I don't know, I've read so much I'm confused.

I don't know that, tomorrow my smelly product could be neutral for all I know, but tonight myself and my other half think we smell nail polish *I'm no expert on that stuff either though)

[Saltbush Bill]

My taste interpretation could be the issue, but I thought creating neutral would make neutral tasting products at the moment off the shotgun.

When was the last time you tasted or smelled 95+% ethanol????......of course its going to smell harsh to a newbie nose.
Cut a sample back to 40% or even 20% leave it air 24 hours ...smell and taste again.

[ecir54]

its just a sugar wash so its only going to taste so good. Like your combo but would replace those copper scrubbers for stainless ones, already enough copper there. On a new rig copper needs time to patina so suspect those off flavors will dissipate over time and more runs.

As stated up your power like bill said. Would expect more than 500ml/hr for 3", would try 1L/hr at the 3200w next go.

Sounds like you are on the right path.

[ecir54]

1250mm SS ferrules? missed that part, have a link to what you used?

[Hebden]

This doesn't seem normal to me. Have you collected all the way down to when the abv drops below 96%? I'd collect everything, leave it 24h with the jar lids cracked open and then taste and smell everything. If it all tastes like acetone, there's either a problem with the ferment/pot still run which has tainted your batch to make it taste like that or you aren't used to tasting new make spirit. Have you done a few pot still runs of whisky or rum etc to get your taste buds tuned in? Also I always taste at 40% as that's a more common strength and so your taste buds will be more used to it (commercial spirits).

Apologies if you're very experienced at tasting and cuts, though it is a common stumbling block initially as new make spirits can taste quite different to what you're used to commercially.

You nailed it Copper, I took it all off and 36hrs later, it was fine. I was too much a newbie for my nose to work on the fly.

Just my experience from running a 3 inch Boka......Dont flood the column.......3,600w is more than enough power for a 3 inch......hell Ive run mine successfully on 2200 at times.
What is the theory behind slow heat up ?........waste of time if you ask me.

Thanks Satbush, I tend to like 3000w for some unknown inexperienced reason, but during my stupidly slow 550ml/h run the other day, it liked 2400w for the taking-off part.

My taste interpretation could be the issue, but I thought creating neutral would make neutral tasting products at the moment off the shotgun.

When was the last time you tasted or smelled 95+% ethanol????......of course its going to smell harsh to a newbie nose.
Cut a sample back to 40% or even 20% leave it air 24 hours ...smell and taste again.

I haven't tasted or smelled it, you are correct, it is a newbie nose. I let it sit for 36hrs (only because I was busy did it go past 24hrs) and it is a different ball game.

its just a sugar wash so its only going to taste so good. Like your combo but would replace those copper scrubbers for stainless ones, already enough copper there. On a new rig copper needs time to patina so suspect those off flavors will dissipate over time and more runs.

As stated up your power like bill said. Would expect more than 500ml/hr for 3", would try 1L/hr at the 3200w next go.

Sounds like you are on the right path.

I don't like 1L/hr for fores, that is too quick, if you meant hearts, too slow.

1250mm SS ferrules? missed that part, have a link to what you used?

1250mm SPP.... yes
https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... cking.html

[Hebden]

its just a sugar wash so its only going to taste so good. Like your combo but would replace those copper scrubbers for stainless ones, already enough copper there. On a new rig copper needs time to patina so suspect those off flavors will dissipate over time and more runs.

As stated up your power like bill said. Would expect more than 500ml/hr for 3", would try 1L/hr at the 3200w next go.

Sounds like you are on the right path.

Eric I'm sorry, I was too quick to dismiss 1L/hrs, I think you meant fores/heads did you?

Is it possible to take off so quickly without smearing?

And if so, how quick do you take off hearts at what power?

[ThomasBrewer]

Hebden - Can you go back and edit your mash bill on the post from Dec 15 and add your fermentation temperature as well? IIRC (from a previous post), you're fermenting quite warm. Using that baking yeast at a high temperature is very likely to give you all sorts of weird stuff during fermentation. If you have a brewing store nearby, try using something like EC-1118 or another wine yeast known for it's clean character. Also bring your fermentation temperature down below 27C.

[ecir54]

Eric I'm sorry, I was too quick to dismiss 1L/hrs, I think you meant fores/heads did you?

Is it possible to take off so quickly without smearing?

And if so, how quick do you take off hearts at what power?

Run 1000ml-1200ml/hr throughout the whole run but do slow down toward the end to watch for when to cut tails.

This with a 2" LM with 5x5 spp at 2250w.

[Hebden]

Hebden - Can you go back and edit your mash bill on the post from Dec 15 and add your fermentation temperature as well? IIRC (from a previous post), you're fermenting quite warm. Using that baking yeast at a high temperature is very likely to give you all sorts of weird stuff during fermentation. If you have a brewing store nearby, try using something like EC-1118 or another wine yeast known for it's clean character. Also bring your fermentation temperature down below 27C.

I'm sorry but my post is just a little beyond editing age.

I pitched at 91f, it rose to high 92's and dropped to 85f day 3.
I had a look at EC-1118, that's blooming expensive and in 5g packets would mean 100 packs. Why is a simple yeast so expensive.
And it's a champagne yeast isn't it, that goes to higher abv which is contrary to most of what I've read, I thought you wanted to keep your fermentation to a lower abv if ~10%.

[ThomasBrewer]

Yes, the EC-1118 is a champagne yeast that ferments fast and clean at room temperature. Just because it has a high ABV tolerance does not mean that you need to make a mash that will be high ABV. Simply adjust the amount of fermentables to a starting gravity that is less than 10% when fermented completely dry (1.080 or less). You only need (1) 5g packet per 23L wash. If you buy a bulk sachet, it's much less than $1/5g. You can also reuse the yeast cake after fermentation, up to 5 times (some say more, but not suggested).

Unfortunately, bakers yeast just isn't ideal for making a clean fermentation. It can make a decent full-flavor whiskey, but asking it to make a clean neutral is probably too much.

[bunny]

Unfortunately, bakers yeast just isn't ideal for making a clean fermentation. It can make a decent full-flavor whiskey, but asking it to make a clean neutral is probably too much.

It seems I and quite a number of others would disagree with you on that statement. Just look at the T & T recipe list.

[ThomasBrewer]

Unfortunately, bakers yeast just isn't ideal for making a clean fermentation. It can make a decent full-flavor whiskey, but asking it to make a clean neutral is probably too much.

It seems I and quite a number of others would disagree with you on that statement. Just look at the T & T recipe list.

Clearly, Hebden is having issues with funny yeast byproducts. Please help him with cleaner fermentations.

What temperature do you ferment at with baking yeast?

[bunny]

Unfortunately, bakers yeast just isn't ideal for making a clean fermentation. It can make a decent full-flavor whiskey, but asking it to make a clean neutral is probably too much.

It seems I and quite a number of others would disagree with you on that statement. Just look at the T & T recipe list.

Clearly, Hebden is having issues with funny yeast byproducts. Please help him with cleaner fermentations.

What temperature do you ferment at with baking yeast?

Since you apparently didn't bother to look at the T & T Recipes here is a short list of sugar washes that all use baker's yeast.
Maybe you have heard of some of them?

viewtopic.php?t=5018
viewtopic.php?t=6782
viewtopic.php?t=70585
viewtopic.php?t=56998
viewtopic.php?t=9981

I happily run my ferments quite a bit hotter than most others at 92*f - 98*f.

[ThomasBrewer]

Bunny - Right on. Clearly his brand of baking yeast isn't as tolerant of high temps as yours is. The way you end up with excess amounts of low boiling point alcohols and esters is by starting with a bad fermentation. To assist him, we need to figure out where his fermentation is going sideways.

[Stonecutter]

Unfortunately, bakers yeast just isn't ideal for making a clean fermentation. It can make a decent full-flavor whiskey, but asking it to make a clean neutral is probably too much.

It seems I and quite a number of others would disagree with you on that statement. Just look at the T & T recipe list.

Clearly, Hebden is having issues with funny yeast byproducts. Please help him with cleaner fermentations.

What temperature do you ferment at with baking yeast?

What leads you to these conclusions ThomasBrewer? I really don’t think it’s a fermentation issue.
Salty already said what I was thinking. A newbie smelling and sampling 95% may very easily mistake clean ethanol for acetone. As was said before by another member heads are going to lead to hearts eventually. I encourage hebden to lock down a T&T recipe and then concentrate on cuts. Hebden you’re doing right by cutting with your senses. It sounds like you’re on info overload once you get some runs under your belt it’ll start to get easier.

+1 with Bunny
There’s sure to be a long list of successful hobbyists who have used bakers yeast to make neutral.

[Hebden]

Thanks guys, I am reading and taking it all in in the background here. I am quite happy to admit that I had mistaken ethanol for acetone.
In fact, I ran the first ferment 4 times with this mastaken smell interpretation, it drove me mad and wasted days of slow distillation. I even chucked my first whole batch.

Whilst I was on my 2nd fermentation and conducting my 5th spirit run, I was getting these strong pungent odours throughout again and I thought that they were all bad, but upon the advice given, I completed this latest run, the one I was "again" confused by bad odours and I let it sit for 36hrs.

After 36hrs, I went back with a fresh head and I smelt, I rubbed in hands, I watered down and sipped and I spat. Now we are getting somewhere I was happy to find that it was me that was making mistakes. However, I do want to try EC1118 for comparison now it has been mentioned.

[DAD300]

Nothing to do with SPP, but getting rid of the yeast initiated flavor/taste for a better neutral is easier to attain with re-running the alcohol. Not more fractions in a given still, but dilutions between distillations.

Run your wash, add that product to the next run and or water it down and rerun it by itself.

Every dilution/distillation after the initial removes flavors. This isn't about abv, it's about distillations/diluting it, steps from the ferment, removing yeast flavor.

I also believe that you get off flavors in high abv ferments due to the ratio of yeast and or stress that causes needed to get a high abv ferment. More/larger yeast bed, more substantial the yeast flavor.

example...for vodka, strip a wash or three, at 70-75% abv aggregate. Add water to that to desired abv and rerun it as high an abv as you can. If it's not clean enough, dilute it and run it again.

These successive runs get easier and easier because your reducing the fores and heads each time.

[DAD300]

For the sake of argument, just keep collecting the way you have been this morning. You have to reach the end of the heads sooner or later. Why there appears to be so much, I really don't know.

I thought the same, but too late, I been equalising at 4600w (RC can't handle much more) for a good 45mins, going to collect a little and see, it will be acetone.

Stop the long equalizing...45 minutes you've rerun the fores and heads thirty times... once the column is full of vapor you're just running the fores and heads up and down the column!

Trust the science, fores and heads come off the boiler first and quicker than hearts. Let the shat out and THEN slow down only to get the abv you're after.

[BrewinBrian44]

For the sake of argument, just keep collecting the way you have been this morning. You have to reach the end of the heads sooner or later. Why there appears to be so much, I really don't know.

I thought the same, but too late, I been equalising at 4600w (RC can't handle much more) for a good 45mins, going to collect a little and see, it will be acetone.

Stop the long equalizing...45 minutes you've rerun the fores and heads thirty times... once the column is full of vapor you're just running the fores and heads up and down the column!

Trust the science, fores and heads come off the boiler first and quicker than hearts. Let the shat out and THEN slow down only to get the abv you're after.

Glad to see you contributing to this thread. Seems it’s been quite a while! You and Odin have provided a lot of the feedback we’ve been using with SPP.

I’ve heard others mentioning skipping the long equalization and I do the same myself. The only thing I wait for is my thermometer at the head to stop bouncing around, then I take off the fores. A stable temp should mean there’s enough of an isolated fraction to start the run. It usually doesn’t take long for the temp to stabilize.

Regarding the “semi aquatic state,” it seems there’s quite a few members on HD that disagree with this method and feel it’s best to avoid running on the ragged edge and suggest lower watts / slower takeoff. From everything I’ve read in this thread, it seems the semi aquatic way of running is geared specifically to SPP and not other types of packing. You still holding true to the info from earlier in the thread? Any new insights?

Thanks so much for all the info thus far!

[Hebden]

For the sake of argument, just keep collecting the way you have been this morning. You have to reach the end of the heads sooner or later. Why there appears to be so much, I really don't know.

I thought the same, but too late, I been equalising at 4600w (RC can't handle much more) for a good 45mins, going to collect a little and see, it will be acetone.

Stop the long equalizing...45 minutes you've rerun the fores and heads thirty times... once the column is full of vapor you're just running the fores and heads up and down the column!

Trust the science, fores and heads come off the boiler first and quicker than hearts. Let the shat out and THEN slow down only to get the abv you're after.

Thanks DAD300,
I will give this a go, but regarding the last point "Let the shat out and THEN slow down only to get the abv you're after", does that mean warm the boiler with gate valve open reasonably wide?

I do not understand "THEN slow down to get the abv your after" does that mean you're taking off fores so fast that your abv dropped below what you'd want to collect heads/hearts at, that seems fast for fores?

[ecir54]

Think what dad is saying is how I run. As stated earlier my 2" lm with spp I run at 2250 the whole run after heatup with 5500w collect fores and heads with natural reflux with the lm valve wide open till comfortably they are gone then stabilize column then start collecting at the abv that i want to collect at. Dont care about abv while removing fores an heads just want it out of there.

This is just what made the most since for me, been doing this way since the yahoo group came out although didn't use spp early on or have the current scr controller being used.

[bunny]

Run 1000ml-1200ml/hr throughout the whole run but do slow down toward the end to watch for when to cut tails.

This with a 2" LM with 5x5 spp at 2250w.

Think what dad is saying is how I run. As stated earlier my 2" lm with spp I run at 2250 the whole run after heatup with 5500w collect fores and heads with natural reflux with the lm valve wide open till comfortably they are gone then stabilize column then start collecting at the abv that i want to collect at. Dont care about abv while removing fores an heads just want it out of there.

This is just what made the most since for me, been doing this way since the yahoo group came out although didn't use spp early on or have the current scr controller being used.

The above is very interesting to me. I have a bunch of questions if you don't mind.

Starting with the fores and heads, are you collecting at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?

Is this with the LM valve wide open?

What is it you call "natural reflux"?

Are you also collecting hearts at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?

What is your typical ABV on hearts?

How tall is the 5x5 spp in your column?

How many theoretical plates do you believe you have?

What do you believe your RR is?

When you slow down near the end, what is the signal you actually watch for to decide to cut tails?

Further back in this thread you mentioned "it's just a sugar wash so it's only going to taste so good". Does that mean if you proof your hearts to about 40% ABV it's not as good as commercial vodka, or that you really don't like vodka but are forced to make it for others?


Thanks, bunny

[ecir54]

Here ya go

Starting with the fores and heads, are you collecting at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?
yes there abouts

Is this with the LM valve wide open?
for fores and heads yes

What is it you call "natural reflux"?
what i observe with a inline site glass is some reflux is happening before the fores and heads come out

Are you also collecting hearts at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?
yes

What is your typical ABV on hearts?
92-93%+ temp corrected

How tall is the 5x5 spp in your column?
25"

How many theoretical plates do you believe you have?
have no clue

What do you believe your RR is?
adjust collection rate to maintain above % so is what it is

When you slow down near the end, what is the signal you actually watch for to decide to cut tails?
i monitor boiler and vapor temp. have around a 10 degree boiler rise throughout run which increases faster at the end of the run. Once around 202 boiler temp, vapor temp will start moving at 10ths of degree for my vapor. When it rises faster than a 10th of a degree at a time i am there. Will also notice a sweetness when getting close, tails has a distinct flavor, smell and feel that is easily detectable so collect at smaller sample as not to include it in my final product. I detest the stuff for what i like to drink.

Further back in this thread you mentioned "it's just a sugar wash so it's only going to taste so good". Does that mean if you proof your hearts to about 40% ABV it's not as good as commercial vodka, or that you really don't like vodka but are forced to make it for others?
just my experience with a sugar run, i do single runs and wouldn't call my product neutral. IMHO a good vodka taste and smells like nothing which i am not interested in. two days two runs a year is enough to make the wife and i happy, don't make it for anyone else. i'm a 101 proof kinda guy

[bunny]

Here ya go

Starting with the fores and heads, are you collecting at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?
yes there abouts

Is this with the LM valve wide open?
for fores and heads yes

What is it you call "natural reflux"?
what i observe with a inline site glass is some reflux is happening before the fores and heads come out

Are you also collecting hearts at 1000ml - 1200ml/hr?
yes

What is your typical ABV on hearts?
92-93%+ temp corrected

How tall is the 5x5 spp in your column?
25"

How many theoretical plates do you believe you have?
have no clue

What do you believe your RR is?
adjust collection rate to maintain above % so is what it is

When you slow down near the end, what is the signal you actually watch for to decide to cut tails?
i monitor boiler and vapor temp. have around a 10 degree boiler rise throughout run which increases faster at the end of the run. Once around 202 boiler temp, vapor temp will start moving at 10ths of degree for my vapor. When it rises faster than a 10th of a degree at a time i am there. Will also notice a sweetness when getting close, tails has a distinct flavor, smell and feel that is easily detectable so collect at smaller sample as not to include it in my final product. I detest the stuff for what i like to drink.

Further back in this thread you mentioned "it's just a sugar wash so it's only going to taste so good". Does that mean if you proof your hearts to about 40% ABV it's not as good as commercial vodka, or that you really don't like vodka but are forced to make it for others?
just my experience with a sugar run, i do single runs and wouldn't call my product neutral. IMHO a good vodka taste and smells like nothing which i am not interested in. two days two runs a year is enough to make the wife and i happy, don't make it for anyone else. i'm a 101 proof kinda guy

Very interesting,
Thanks,
bunny