I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Steve Broady
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:34 pm Why was extra water and oyster shells with Ph of 5... what was the reasoning behind that action..

Mars
Extra water because I had room in the bucket, and the grain bag looked too dry and couldn’t easily be submerged. I figured extra water would, at worst, reduce the ABV down a touch before distillation, but otherwise couldn’t hurt anything. And the reduced concentration might make things easier. The oyster shells were to hopefully control pH, if that’s my problem, and perhaps to give a little calcium to the yeast. Again, more of a “it might help and it can’t hurt, can it?” philosophy.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by StillerBoy »

Steve Broady wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:37 am The oyster shells were to hopefully control pH, if that’s my problem, and perhaps to give a little calcium to the yeast. Again, more of a “it might help and it can’t hurt, can it?” philosophy.
As to the extra water that should of been done at the start, with proper mashing method, but it an experience and due to lack of understanding of the process..

As to the addition of oyster shells with a Ph of 5, wrong addition, as the addition will make the mash more alkaline which is not in the best interest of yeast, as they require an acidic environment during fermentation phase like Ph of 4 - 4.5.. another experience due to lack of understanding and proper tool for the task..

As to your "philosophy", not a good one..

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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

howie wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:07 pm
i still do iodine test sometimes but obv that only tells you that you have converted the starches you have managed to extract from the grain.
it doesn't tell you if you've left a shitload of starch behind by poor conversion.
the other day i saw a post saying they had 10kg of grain and only got an OG of 1.030 and quote 'the iodine test was ok"
so until someone invents a starchometer, i will rely on beer apps, calculators and hydrometers ( and hopefully good mashing processes) to get a reasonable idea of my expected OG/FG/abv etc.
Iodine is a "starchometer". I think you are confusing conversion of starch with extraction from the grain. You can leave starches trapped in the grain and still have full conversion of available starch. Usually this happens because people don't stir their mash well and leave dough balls, or they grind too coarse.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by howie »

nope, i mean a device (starchometer) which will tell you if you have extracted all the available/expected starch from the grain ( which afaik) isn't available.
the iodine test, as i said, doesn't tell you if you've left a shitload of starch behind by poor conversion.
pretty much what you said :lol:
maybe i should have said gelitization instead of conversion?
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

You are talking extraction efficiency, or brewhouse efficiency it has nothing to do with conversion. Conversion can only take place on extracted starches. Gelatinization is a part of getting good extraction. The tools you are longing for are a notebook, brewing calculator and hydrometer.

You should know what your brewing side efficiency is based on past runs (notes). Use that efficiency to predict what your mash should have for a starting gravity (or first runnings). For instance, I know in my brewery straight malt generally produces 92%, corn is 88% +/-5%, unmalted grain is 60%+/-5%, I just take the percentage of each and figure out what my extraction efficiency should be. If you don't hit your number, but conversion shows complete you know you have an extraction problem. It's why most brewers mill their own grain and are pedantic about stirring and temps. If your process is inconsistent you can't expect to find improvements because you won't know if the changes are producing positive results.

There are also compromises to be made, milling to flour is great for extraction efficiency but it's a pain to work with. Whole grain is easy to work with, but extraction will be terrible. So you take notes and you figure out where your sweet spot is, where the grain is efficient to work with and extraction is still good.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by still_stirrin »

Ben wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:36 am You are talking extraction efficiency, it has nothing to do with conversion. Conversion can only take place on extracted starches. Gelatinization is a part of getting good extraction. The tools you are longing for are a notebook, brewing calculator and hydrometer.
+1.
And another “tool” for your brewhouse is experience. The more you have, the better you’ll be. Unfortunately, you can’t go to a big box store (or LHBS) and buy some. You’ve got to work for it.
Ben wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:36 am You should know what your brewing side efficiency is based on past runs (notes). Use that efficiency to predict what your mash should have for a starting gravity (or first runnings). If you don't hit your number, but conversion shows complete you know you have an extraction problem. It's why most brewers mill their own grain and are pedantic about stirring and temps. If your process is inconsistent you can't expect to find improvements because you won't know if the changes are producing positive results.
+1.
When you’ve brewed enough to understand your toolset (and how to use it), you’ll be better able to predict more accurately how to formulate a recipe to produce the product you’re aiming for. Practice, practice, practice …
Ben wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:36 am There are also compromises to be made, milling to flour is great for extraction efficiency but it's a pain to work with. Whole grain is easy to work with, but extraction will be terrible. So you take notes and you figure out where your sweet spot is, where the grain is efficient to work with and extraction is still good.
+1.
Again, well said Ben. You’re obviously a long-time home brewer with all grain experience. And hobby distillers here definitely would benefit from a good foundation in home brewing, especially if trying to brew all-grain spirits. Mash skills as well as fermentation knowledge are the starting point to springboard into top-shelf cereal grain spirits.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

Thank you all again for the advice, comments, corrections, and just for being here and willing to share. I admit that I can be a bit slow sometimes, and even when I can see all the pieces of a puzzle I occasionally struggle to get them in the right order. With that in mind, Let me see if I understand what you've shared by explaining what I *should* be doing, as I understand it.

1. Boil water, and pour that over any cracked, uncooked grains in the recipe. Stir thoroughly. When the temperature is below 190F, high temp enzyme can be added if desired. Insulate and let it rest. If it's not too thick, precooked grains can go in here if desired.
2. When the temperature is close to 150F (allowing for the fact that it will drop when additions are made), stir in malt and any precooked grains not already added. Alpha-amylase can be added now, if I'm using it.
3. By the time it reaches yeast pitching temperature, all the starch conversion that's going to happen should have happened. If fermenting off grain, strain, sparge, and squeeze. Anything else in the recipe (backset, extra sugar, fruit, nutrients, etc.) can be added now. Take a gravity reading, pitch yeast, and wait.
4. Finish fermenting, strip, re-distill, blend, and age.
5. Repeat steps 1-5

Does that seem about right, for an overly simplistic outline?
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by shadylane »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:37 am
2. When the temperature is close to 150F (allowing for the fact that it will drop when additions are made), stir in malt and any precooked grains not already added. Alpha-amylase can be added now, if I'm using it.
Not Alpha amylase, Gluco amylase. The high temp enzymes added at first is the alpha.

Here's the basic idea.
Gelatinize the starch with hot water.
Use alpha to convert the starch into dextrins.
Use gluco to convert the dextrins into fermentable sugar.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by rubberduck71 »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:00 am As to the addition of oyster shells with a Ph of 5, wrong addition, as the addition will make the mash more alkaline which is not in the best interest of yeast, as they require an acidic environment during fermentation phase like Ph of 4 - 4.5.. another experience due to lack of understanding and proper tool for the task..
Mars
Mars, can you expand on this? My understanding (and I'm still a Newb @ 2 yrs into this wonderful hobby) is that the oyster shells are almost a "cruise control" for your mash. i.e. they only give off the alkalinity at a certain threshold of acidity. I'm just spitting out uneducated levels here, but say at 5.0 there's not enough acid to "nibble" at the oyster shells yet. But say at 4.9 the shells kick in & raise it back to 5.0 & hold it steady there? Yeast prefer the 5.0-5.4 range???

I know those oyster shells (or marble & similar substances used by our community) are critical when you run sugar based washes that crash hard in first 48 hrs of fermentation. A/G mashes have a built-in buffer (but with limitations) with the grains? As standard protocol for me, I always do a sugarhead on spent grains to get a 2nd use out of them. You'll see me saying this often: it helps keep your paws off the A/G while it ages (sipping on a CROW surgarhead as I type this, in fact).

I've recently got into making homebrew beer for kegging with kits from an online store, and pH got a smidge below 4.0 on a recent extract kit, so was planning to use a hop bag with shells on next batch to help balance next attempt. 1st brew was a Summer Wheat that even the SWIMBO liked, and it got good reviews from my buddies during my Fantasy Football draft this past Friday. 2nd one was a Blue Moon clone. It's decent, but not quite as good as my 1st. But I think I got not quite full fermentation due to pH crash that I tried to correct for last few gravity points with Calcium Carbide.

Thanks for your feedback,
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by still_stirrin »

rubberduck71 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:46 pm But I think I got not quite full fermentation due to pH crash that I tried to correct for last few gravity points with Calcium Carbide.
Nope, I hope not. CaC2 (calcium carbide) is used to make acetylene. When hydrated, it stinks like garlic and is toxic.

Use calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) to raise the pH. Even calcium carbonate (CaCO3) will help a little, but it’s reaction is much slower than a strong base like the hydroxide (Ca(OH)2).
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by rubberduck71 »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:45 pm
rubberduck71 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:46 pm But I think I got not quite full fermentation due to pH crash that I tried to correct for last few gravity points with Calcium Carbide.
Nope, I hope not. CaC2 (calcium carbide) is used to make acetylene. When hydrated, it stinks like garlic and is toxic.

Use calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) to raise the pH. Even calcium carbonate (CaCO3) will help a little, but it’s reaction is much slower than a strong base like the hydroxide (Ca(OH)2).
ss
Sorry SS, it's Calcium CARBONATE I used. Not sure if that tweaks your response or not...

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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:37 am 1. Boil water, and pour that over any cracked, uncooked grains in the recipe. Stir thoroughly. When the temperature is below 190F, high temp enzyme can be added if desired. Insulate and let it rest. If it's not too thick, precooked grains can go in here if desired.

2. When the temperature is close to 150F (allowing for the fact that it will drop when additions are made), stir in malt and any precooked grains not already added. Alpha-amylase can be added now, if I'm using it.

1: Only corn, you don't need or want to take other grains to this temp, you can extract some undesireable stuff. Put any other unmalted grain in below 165, most cereals convert right around beta temps.

2: Beta amalyse is what you are after. It is optimal around 145°f rest temp. Beta nibbles away the ends of the starch chain, leaving fermentable sugars only. Alpha randomly hacks starch chains leaving both fermentable and unfermentable. Great for beer, but for liquor you are just wasting starch.



Unless you have a known water problem you can leave shells out of the all grain stuff, save it for your sugar based washes. If you feel the need to tinker with your water I wrote a short thing on it: viewtopic.php?p=7707435&hilit=water#p7707435
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

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rubberduck71 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:46 pm Mars, can you expand on this? My understanding (and I'm still a Newb @ 2 yrs into this wonderful hobby) is that the oyster shells are almost a "cruise control" for your mash. i.e. they only give off the alkalinity at a certain threshold of acidity. I'm just spitting out uneducated levels here, but say at 5.0 there's not enough acid to "nibble" at the oyster shells yet. But say at 4.9 the shells kick in & raise it back to 5.0 & hold it steady there? Yeast prefer the 5.0-5.4 range???
I'm of the view that Ph management is as important as stable fermenting temp in the fermentation process..

My experience with Ph comes from experimenting and observing Ph behavior and it's effects with sugar washes, over the years of doing side by side ferments.. whereas AG Ph behavior has a similar effect but not as drastic as sugar washes.. sugar washes will drastically drop within the first 7 - 8 hrs to level, no matter if the starting Ph was 6 or 5, that the yeast do not appreciate, whereas in AG the Ph will not drop as much or as quickly, and different grain bills behave differently, and the starting Ph is related to the mashing Ph required if one is using liquid enzymes..

My experience with oyster shells is limited, for one reason, one cannot control the Ph as well as using the dry ingredients.. and there's a few reason for that, one is that after adjusting at the first 24 hr, the Ph become stable for the rest of the fermentation, whereas with oyster shells the Ph will continue to rise beyond a level I want it at.. two by using dry ingredients I can control where I want the Ph to hold at, thereby assisting in the reduction of foaming (puking) during the heat up and stripping phase..

Ph does not behave as you has stated, and a Ph of 5 will cause issues, both in fermenting and stripping, as we are making distiller's beer not drinking beer.. the ideal Ph range is 4 - 4.2, providing a good environment in reduced fermentation time and reduction of foaming.. similarly in sugar washes, the ideal Ph at start is a Ph of 6.5 as this level with reduce the krausen level, whereas starting at a Ph of 5 greatly increases the krausen level.. there is no such thing as "cruise control" in Ph management per say, though it appear as such, the acidity will be always continue to work toward a higher Ph, thereby raising the Ph beyond the ideal level I prefer..

Mars
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

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StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:20 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:29 am Poor conversion for my all-grains always comes back to: Not enough rest time at temp. - Better insulation and left alone for longer.
That has also been my experience, as my process takes about 6 -8 hrs to go from 185 to 140*F, at which time gluco is added and allowed to cool over night to pitching temp.. I also do stir every 30 - 45 min for the first 2.5 hrs, and also every 30 min between 120 - 140.. and all my mashes by pitching time have been very liquidy, as the gluco does increase/improve the liquidy of the mash,but does required time.. most beginners rush the process, and have also notice that using a wort cooler, wanting to cool it to fast especially the gluco phrase, has reduced the liqiudy effect..

Mars
This is very interesting. I felt my conversion maybe took too long on my last bourbon. ( it wasn't technically a bourbon because I didn't add barley :wtf: ). But I did notice that I had lots of liquid on top for pulling a sample for my starch conversion test,my ph test and my gravity reading. I was going to make a chiller but may now hold off on that for now.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

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Bradster68 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:05 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:20 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:29 am Poor conversion for my all-grains always comes back to: Not enough rest time at temp. - Better insulation and left alone for longer.
That has also been my experience, as my process takes about 6 -8 hrs to go from 185 to 140*F, at which time gluco is added and allowed to cool over night to pitching temp.. I also do stir every 30 - 45 min for the first 2.5 hrs, and also every 30 min between 120 - 140.. and all my mashes by pitching time have been very liquidy, as the gluco does increase/improve the liquidy of the mash,but does required time.. most beginners rush the process, and have also notice that using a wort cooler, wanting to cool it to fast especially the gluco phrase, has reduced the liqiudy effect..

Mars
This is very interesting. I felt my conversion maybe took too long on my last bourbon. ( it wasn't technically a bourbon because I didn't add barley :wtf: ). But I did notice that I had lots of liquid on top for pulling a sample for my starch conversion test,my ph test and my gravity reading. I was going to make a chiller but may now hold off on that for now.
Again, what's the hurry?
Don’t confuse conversion times with infection prevention.
If you’re mashing properly, the time it takes to convert starches is vastly different than bringing gallons of mash down to pitching temp.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Bradster68 »

Stonecutter wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:39 pm
Bradster68 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:05 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:20 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:29 am Poor conversion for my all-grains always comes back to: Not enough rest time at temp. - Better insulation and left alone for longer.
That has also been my experience, as my process takes about 6 -8 hrs to go from 185 to 140*F, at which time gluco is added and allowed to cool over night to pitching temp.. I also do stir every 30 - 45 min for the first 2.5 hrs, and also every 30 min between 120 - 140.. and all my mashes by pitching time have been very liquidy, as the gluco does increase/improve the liquidy of the mash,but does required time.. most beginners rush the process, and have also notice that using a wort cooler, wanting to cool it to fast especially the gluco phrase, has reduced the liqiudy effect..

Mars
This is very interesting. I felt my conversion maybe took too long on my last bourbon. ( it wasn't technically a bourbon because I didn't add barley :wtf: ). But I did notice that I had lots of liquid on top for pulling a sample for my starch conversion test,my ph test and my gravity reading. I was going to make a chiller but may now hold off on that for now.
Again, what's the hurry?
Don’t confuse conversion times with infection prevention.
If you’re mashing properly, the time it takes to convert starches is vastly different than bringing gallons of mash down to pitching temp.
Agreed. I just see where some guys leave all night and pitch in the morning. My total time was about 12 or 13 hours till I pitched my yeast. I'm new to AG so not sure how fast an infection can happen. I guess the chiller would be handy if time was of the essence, but my process will be to start early morning and pitch later that evening.
Again this is a 5 gallon recipe. So when I move to larger ferments this may change and I may have to incorporate the chiller.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by BlueSasquatch »

If it makes you feel better, I denatured my wheat enzymes with this last batch, by heating to 160 and tossing in grain, rather than 150-155 and tossing in the grain. What I get for having rough notes and moving to fast. I had some liquid enzymes which managed to get me at like a 50% Efficiency, so still taking it all the way, but felt pretty dumb, later when someone pointed out my mistake.

Just reinforces what Still Stirrin said about Experience.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

I was doing a little reading about iron on water, and saw this in a thread from 2006:
Swag wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:05 pm The iron in the water doesn't allow the enzyme in the malted grain to convert the starches to sugar. It somehow neutralizes the enzyme.
I know that I have fairly high iron content in my water, though I don’t know the PPM. I just know that it stains toilets, showers, etc. A couple days ago I tried another mash, and was still having trouble. I was a careful as I can be with temperatures, used liquid enzymes, made sure to mill all the grain into a coarse meal, and generally did the best I could. And it still turned into a thick goo. There’s some sweetness to it, and it definitely got thinner, but it didn’t behave like I expected. I recently watched a video on Still It where they mashed 3 lbs of corn in 1 gallon of water, and the result was thin enough to pour through a funnel. Mine, at 2.3 lbs/gallon, would definitely not pour like that.

Could the iron in my water be the next thing to look at? Should I just try using bottled water?
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

A standard mash target is 1.25 quarts per lb of grain, so 3lbs/gallon is pretty well on target. You can definitely go thinner, but the thinner you go the more enzyme you have to add, you are essentially watering it down as well. I think you might have a temp issue.

First look at this list of major conversion problems and make sure you aren't overlooking anything:

Grind of the grist: if you are using cracked corn straight from a bag, or whole corn this isn't fine enough. You need to run all grain through a mill set to about 0.030" gap to get good conversion. A lot of people on this forum seem to like as fine as they can get, down to a meal. If you are using flaked corn its already done.

Missing temps: You said in your other thread you are adding 190°f water to get gel going. If this is the case it isn't anywhere near hot enough. You need at minimum 180° resting gel temp, 185 is better (meaning the mash temp once everything is mixed up well) and it needs to hold here for the duration. Sebamyl HTL denatures at 190, so if you are over that you are too hot and destroying your enzymes. Mix and get your temp stable, then add the enzymes, stir and close up/insulate for the rest.

You need to make sure you are in beta temp for your Sacch rest. 145° is a good target. You must hit these numbers. 5° either direction is too far off. Make sure your thermometer is reasonably accurate, test it in an ice bath, should be 32f. You need to make sure your mash temp is holding. If it starts at 145 and drops to 125 before conversion is done it will never be complete.

Dont rush: conversion takes time. Don't go to the next step until the current step is actually finished. Sometimes corn gel and convert is done in 90 minutes, sometimes it takes 6 hours. It takes the time it takes, rushing it will not improve your product. Same deal with Sacch rest, the rest of your grain is going to take time, could be 30 mins, could be much longer, especially if you didn't get the corn done with the high temp. Make sure you are starch testing, tincture of iodine is $10/bottle and it lasts for years. Use a white porcelain surface to do your testing on, old bath tile, a bowl, something that is clean and white so you can actually see what's going on, a few drops of mash and a drop of iodine. If the iodine changes color at all you aren't done.


Failure to mix properly: Dough balls and dry areas will tank your efficiency. Every bit of the grain needs to be broken up and wet during the mash.

Incorrect enzyme You need the right enzymes at the right temp range. If your gel enzyme isn't a high temp it won't work at corn gel temps. A standard temp high conversion enzyme like sebamyl GL can be used at sacch temp if you aren't using malt. You need to make sure if you are relying on malt for conversion you have enough diastatic power for the total grain bill.



It's likely you are getting more iron from the grain itself than you are the water. There may be other things to look at in your water though. Sometimes you can get water info through your treatment facility, if you are on well water you are on your own, and you would benefit from a water test: viewtopic.php?p=7707435&hilit=your+water#p7707435.

If you get the data on your water you can mix it with purified or distilled (from your still, or the store) to get the minerality down, or you can use bru'n water to figure out what minerals to add to distilled water to get you in a range that will work for you mash while still having necessary minerality. A small RO system specifically for your mash water could be an option as well, then add minerals. You need minerals for everything to work, especially calcium, so if you start going to a filtered/distilled/RO water make sure you are adjusting the chemistry.



If you aren't tasting iron in your distillers beer (you should be tasting it before and after ferment) then you likely don't have an iron problem.



The easy way to test this would be to use only distilled water, add minerals based on Bru'n water spreadsheet, and use only that water for a batch. If the problem goes away you know it's a water issue.


Verify calibration on all of your tools. Thermometers, hydrometers, refractometers.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

Thank you for all that, Ben! I will definitely double check everything before my next mash. Especially testing my thermometer. I’ve checked it before, but I have read that they can drift over time.

I’m determined to get this right. Not trying to take shortcuts, just trying to learn and master this issue.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by higgins »

I grind my cracked corn and rye to a meal consistency with a KitchenAid grinder attachment (or I use cornmeal & ryemeal), and my malt to about .032" with an old single roller grain mill (does anyone remember the philmill?). I boil my water (1 qt/lb @ 206F) for the corn/rye, turn off the element, and quickly power mix in the grain right in the kettle. It is a very thick porridge at this time and is about 185F. I add the HTL, begin power mixing, and it thins very quickly. I wrap my kettle and leave it for 3 hours to convert. I'll add about 0.33 qt/lb water after the cooking to cool it and thin it out for the malt addition. I've never had a major conversion issue using this process, and have hit over 80% a few times.

I only found one source for the statement about iron destroying enzymes. That same document says you shouldn't have more than 25ppm iron for brewing, which is terribly wrong. The taste threshold of iron is 0.03 ppm, and many say keep it under that and you'll be OK. That error makes me question the validity of the 'enzyme' statement.

When I move up here (3200' el) 8 yrs ago after retiring I had my well water analyzed because I needed good water to make good beer. It has 0.22 ppm iron and didn't taste too good. I put in a BIRM filter and now it tastes great. I never brewed a beer with the unfiltered water, but my beers now taste fine.
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Ben
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

higgins wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:07 am
and have hit over 80% a few times.
This is another key. Don't expect 90% efficiency with corn, its unrealistic, although its possible with some advanced equipment and a lot of experience/knowledge/patience, it is hit and miss to get that high... and honestly it may make a worse product. In beer brewing I can hit 93% every single time, but the beer tastes better at 88%. If you can break into the 60s or 70's on your distillers beer routinely you are doing fine. Corn in general, be it feed, specialty, or milled is no where near the quality or consistency of brewers malt. I can run the same recipe, with two bags of cracked corn, bought from the same company, same brand at different times of year and have my efficiency swing 5%+.

Cracked corn is cheap, if you have to add a couple pounds so be it. If you find you make great whisky at 63% efficiency and your brew day is easy, then you are having a good time making great whisky and its just a number.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by still_stirrin »

Good put, Ben.

My brewhouse is between 72% and 75% efficiency, and that’s from “potential extraction” through the fermenter. But, I lauter all my mashes, so what happens in the mash tun is critical. Managing mash density (water infusion), temperatures, and rest (hold) times is fundamental to success and consistency.

Once you’ve brewed enough beer and many different recipes and sampled enough of your products, you’ll gain an understanding of not only the different grains’ taste contributions, but also their extract potentials. And remember, these grains are grown naturally, such that there will be variations in potential even with the same type of cereal grains (batch to batch).

Bottomline, what you start with (the recipe) may vary from time to time, but how you process the mash will have a significant impact on what you get out of the fermenter and your boiler.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by higgins »

++1 SS.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

Since I’ve clearly still got some work to do to learn how to mash grain properly, do you think it would be worth my time to try practicing on a smaller batch? Say, 1 gallon of water and a couple pounds of corn. Just something cheap, relatively quick to heat up, and small enough not to take up the entire stove top. Or would that smaller quantity be too hard to hold at a steady temperature long enough to be a useful practice?
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by shadylane »

Steve Broady wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:09 pm
...my IR thermometer was reading 143F when I stirred the mash...

Don't trust an IR thermometer when trying to measure liquid or anything shiney.
It will lead you astray and cause you to make mistakes. :ewink:
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Sporacle »

Steve Broady wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:07 pm Since I’ve clearly still got some work to do to learn how to mash grain properly, do you think it would be worth my time to try practicing on a smaller batch? Say, 1 gallon of water and a couple pounds of corn. Just something cheap, relatively quick to heat up, and small enough not to take up the entire stove top. Or would that smaller quantity be too hard to hold at a steady temperature long enough to be a useful practice?
Hey mate, I think Ben suggested a esky (cooler) to mash in. I can highly recommend doing a HBB as a useful practise.
I have a 120L cooler and it will hold within 3 degrees over 2 hours if I don't open it excessively

Write yourself out a run sheet of times and temps.

The beauty of this is you are working down to a target temp from your corn gel temps

This way you can start high with the corn and work down to temp for your grains, the cooler takes away the need for the oven.

I have only just started reasonably large batch all grain but I have improved my SG from 1.050 on my first 100L batch to 1.062 on my third using an identical recipe, hopefully this last one will finish a bit lower as well. My only equipment is a cooler and my boiler and a drill

Obviously this is a very simple method and the all grain guys have a lot more technique. I found that having a clear written plan and sticking to a time schedule and not fiddling with the mash constantly have been the win points for me :thumbup:

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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Ben »

Sporacle has it nailed. Get a cheap picnic cooler, low grade Walmart one will do fine and use it as a mash tun. If you want to vorlauf and sparge a stainless braid and valve in place of the stock drain valve works fine (use rice hulls). You can be in the whole setup for not much money... you can often get coolers free off craigslist, facebook, whatever. Once you know your temp requirements (take notes) its as easy as adding grain and water and waiting, no mothering necessary. If your temp ends up a little low do a decoction. If its a little high open lid and stir.

Once you get it right one time it all comes together, then there is no big drama.

You may eventually upgrade that cooler, but I ran a cheap picnic cooler and a turkey fryer as both my hot liquor tank and boil kettle for years, won awards and made great beer because I paid more attention. Distilling is even easier since you don't need the boil kettle.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by Steve Broady »

Thanks, guys. I’ve got a 28L cooler that I’ll be using for the next go around. The last batch I mashed a few days ago is fermenting away happily, so I obviously achieved something. Maybe I’m just setting my sights too high. I didn’t take a gravity reading because that seemed impossible to do with porridge, and I didn’t feel like trying to squeeze out enough to measure. I probably should have.

And thanks for the warning on the thermometer, shady. Next time I’ll be using a better thermometer.

I promise, guys. I’m not trying to cut corners here. Just trying to use what I have, and figure out if my problems are related to technique, tools, or ingredients. It seems to be a combination of all three, and I’m slowly working on fixing that. I greatly appreciate all your help and advice.
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Re: I’m having trouble getting full starch conversion

Post by shadylane »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:28 am
I didn’t take a gravity reading because that seemed impossible to do with porridge, and I didn’t feel like trying to squeeze out enough to measure. I probably should have.
I use a refractometer for the first measurement. It only takes a drop or two.
For the final gravity measurement, I use a hydrometer.
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