PH clarification

[MmmPeace]

Hi all, I am pretty confused when it comes to ph levels. If I have a mash and the ph is let's say 2 and I want it to get to 5-6, I would add something like baking soda correct? If I have a mash and the ph is let's say 8 and I want to get it to 5-6 I would add something like citric acid correct? Also is a high ph a higher number or lower..? i.e. is 1 considered high ph or 14 considered high ph? Thanks all!Not sure why, but I cannot find the answer to this one and it is driving me nuts.

[Salt Must Flow]

Citric Acid = PH down. Instantly adjusts the PH.

Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) = PH up. Instantly adjusts the PH, but will not buffer the PH.

Calcium Carbonate will buffer the PH.

From what I've read, you ideally, you want a wash pH of 5.2 - 5.6 at the start adjusted with Citric Acid. Suspending Calcium Carbonate in the wash will buffer the PH. Most of the time my sugar washes finish fermenting and the PH is approx 4.2

[NZChris]

Calcium Carbonate will buffer the PH.

AFAIK, that is an internet myth. What pH does it buffer at? Where is that info to be found apart from hearsay on forums?

Various forms of Calcium Carbonate can be used to behave like a buffer in a fermenting wash, but used in excess or left in after a ferment goes dead, it can push the pH enough over 7 to wreck your wash.

[Salt Must Flow]

Calcium Carbonate will buffer the PH.

AFAIK, that is an internet myth. What pH does it buffer at? Where is that info to be found apart from hearsay on forums?

Various forms of Calcium Carbonate can be used to behave like a buffer in a fermenting wash, but used in excess or left in after a ferment goes dead, it can push the pH enough over 7 to wreck your wash.

I would ask, how much is excess? I have seen an instance where an obscene amount was used (huge slab of marble), it dissolved as needed and reused over and over again. Yeah remove shortly after fermentation is complete, not a big deal. Here's just one post that may explain more.

[MmmPeace]

Thank you for the help. to clarify when you say adjust the ph up would that mean going from 2 -->6 or is up considered the low #s?

[cob]

There are endless PH charts on the net. Look at a few and see if anything makes sense.

[Salt Must Flow]

Thank you for the help. to clarify when you say adjust the ph up would that mean going from 2 -->6 or is up considered the low #s?

I would ask, what is the starting PH of the wash? Do you need to adjust the PH up or down to reach 5.2 - 5.6? Which ever way the PH needs adjusted, I would use the appropriate material to achieve it. In every instance in my experience, I needed to add Citric Acid to lower the PH.

[NZChris]

I would ask, how much is excess? I have seen an instance where an obscene amount was used (huge slab of marble), it dissolved as needed and reused over and over again. Yeah remove shortly after fermentation is complete, not a big deal.

A slab of marble has a small surface area to volume ratio, so is ideal for emulating a buffer.

Excess is enough to make your wash alkaline, at which point it may smell like ammonia or rotting flesh and it is unlikely that you will want to run it.

The smaller the CC particles the greater is the surface area and the faster it dissolves, so the same weight of powder or chook grit will not behave like a slab of marble or whole, large, sea shells.

[Stonecutter]

Did you add anything to your “mash” to bring down your starting ph level? What’s your grain bill and method of mashing?

[NZChris]

I use backset for AGs and I don't recall having to adjust, or buffer, pH during ferments. I mostly buffer sugar washes and seldom adjust their pH before pitching. If I do, there is a lemon tree just outside the door.

[MmmPeace]

Mash bill is 16lb corn, 5lb 2-row, 5lb red wheat, 1lb honey malt to 14 gallons of water. I’ll be adding enzymes to break down the corn and throw in my malts once it hits about 148f. I need to hit the right ph for my enzymes to work well and get maximum conversion. If you see anything glaring please advise.

[MmmPeace]

Did you add anything to your “mash” to bring down your starting ph level? What’s your grain bill and method of mashing?

Mash bill is 16lb corn, 5lb 2-row, 5lb red wheat, 1lb honey malt to 14 gallons of water. I’ll be adding enzymes to break down the corn and throw in my malts once it hits about 148f. I need to hit the right ph for my enzymes to work well and get maximum conversion. If you see anything glaring please advise. Basically following the booners casual corn and adding the additional malts with the 2nd enzymes rather than doing all corn.

[Stonecutter]

I had assumed that you had already started a Mash.
Everything looks to be in order and tasty. If you weren’t doing corn and unless your water supply is suspect, I’d say just mash.
Unfortunately, I’ve never used them enzymes. I’m not sure how touchy they are. I know PintO highlights the importance of ph value in his video.

[MmmPeace]

I had assumed that you had already started a Mash.
Everything looks to be in order and tasty. If you weren’t doing corn and unless your water supply is suspect, I’d say just mash.
Unfortunately, I’ve never used them enzymes. I’m not sure how touchy they are. I know PintO highlights the importance of ph value in his video.

I’m actually using Pinto’s enzymes. That’s what started my questioning..

[Stonecutter]

That would have been helpful information in your initial post..

[Saltbush Bill]

I’m actually using Pinto’s enzymes.

I thought he'd stopped selling ages ago......or are you using old stock you have had stored away?

[MmmPeace]

I’m actually using Pinto’s enzymes.

I thought he'd stopped selling ages ago......or are you using old stock you have had stored away?

Old stock, I see most of the home brew sites have them available now as well.

[Ben]

The reason pH is confusing is people toss the terms around in weird ways. pH 1 is acidic, pH 7 is neutral, pH 14 is basic (caustic). The number is logarithmic, so a pH of 5.0 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 6.0, a pH of 4.0 is 100 times more acidic than 6.0, etc.

If you read Woodsheds recipe he says high temp is 5.6-6.5 pH range, and "corn should get you there". Unless you have very hard well water you will be fine. The addition of backset (or in your case the grain addition) will drop it further for the low temp enzyme, low temp functions at pH 2.8-5.5. You also had excess enzyme from the grain addition, which will help cover any deficiencies.

If you passed starch test don't sweat it at all. With all grain you are probably ok without any additions as far as ferment goes, If you were doing a sugar wash there would be more concern over a significant pH drop During mash.

There could be room for improvement, but you need to know your base water chemistry first. What works for someone on well water in Florida is going to be totally different than someone running from city water somewhere else. viewtopic.php?p=7707435&hilit=water+chemistry#p7707435

[StillerBoy]

I’m actually using Pinto’s enzymes.

HtL enzymes are made by Specialty Enzymes out of Calif..

Pinto was just a re-seller.. and are available from other re-sellers.. as Specialty don't sell in small amounts..

Mars

[Ben]

Calcium Carbonate will buffer the PH.

AFAIK, that is an internet myth. What pH does it buffer at? Where is that info to be found apart from hearsay on forums?

Creates a buffer if there is citric acid present (google: citrate buffer). Otherwise it's peoples loose term for throwing some chunk of limestone (shells or marble) into a wash and hoping for the best.

[Twisted Brick]

I’m actually using Pinto’s enzymes.

HtL enzymes are made by Specialty Enzymes out of Calif..

Pinto was just a re-seller.. and are available from other re-sellers.. as Specialty don't sell in small amounts..

Mars

Ya beat me to it Mars. I ordered my ‘SEB’ Enzymes from Moonshine Distillers, but they originate from Specialty Enzymes. Their corporate office is about 30min drive from here.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm pretty sure anyone who has been in the game for a while is fully aware that Pint was only a retailer of enzymes.......but he was one of the first to make small quantities easily available to hobbiests world wide that I am aware of. Since then It seems that every man and his dog has got in on the act.

[NZChris]

Calcium Carbonate will buffer the PH.

AFAIK, that is an internet myth. What pH does it buffer at? Where is that info to be found apart from hearsay on forums?

Creates a buffer if there is citric acid present (google: citrate buffer). Otherwise it's peoples loose term for throwing some chunk of limestone (shells or marble) into a wash and hoping for the best.

Sodium Citrate is used to make buffer solutions.
Where can I find out what pH the Calcium Citrate is supposed to buffer at? Without that info., adding citric acid and CC to a wash is about as scientific as chucking in a couple of clam shells you have handy.

[Hügelwilli]

All compounds with calcium are not very soluble in water. And when a ferment produces CO2, the calcium will form calcium carbonate with it, what is extreme insoluble. So no matter what you do, in what form you add a calcium base, in the end you have insoluble calcium carbonate in the mash.

But when the the acidity rises, calcium compounds solve and work similar to a real buffer.

So in practice it is all right to add citric acid and calcium carbonate at the beginning of a ferment. Try to find out what works and what doesn't. To call this mixture a buffer is wrong from the scientific standpoint. But from the practical standpoint it is all right I think.

[MmmPeace]

The reason pH is confusing is people toss the terms around in weird ways. pH 1 is acidic, pH 7 is neutral, pH 14 is basic (caustic). The number is logarithmic, so a pH of 5.0 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 6.0, a pH of 4.0 is 100 times more acidic than 6.0, etc.

If you read Woodsheds recipe he says high temp is 5.6-6.5 pH range, and "corn should get you there". Unless you have very hard well water you will be fine. The addition of backset (or in your case the grain addition) will drop it further for the low temp enzyme, low temp functions at pH 2.8-5.5. You also had excess enzyme from the grain addition, which will help cover any deficiencies.

If you passed starch test don't sweat it at all. With all grain you are probably ok without any additions as far as ferment goes, If you were doing a sugar wash there would be more concern over a significant pH drop During mash.

There could be room for improvement, but you need to know your base water chemistry first. What works for someone on well water in Florida is going to be totally different than someone running from city water somewhere else. viewtopic.php?p=7707435&hilit=water+chemistry#p7707435

What a great explanation, thank you for taking the time to help me understand.

[NZChris]

There could be room for improvement, but you need to know your base water chemistry first. What works for someone on well water in Florida is going to be totally different than someone running from city water somewhere else.

I don't know the local water chemistry and I don't need to because I've kept records of my past results. I weigh everything I use, before and after, then use those records when designing the next ferments.

Small adjustments are often all you need to up your game.

[Ben]

There could be room for improvement, but you need to know your base water chemistry first. What works for someone on well water in Florida is going to be totally different than someone running from city water somewhere else.

I don't know the local water chemistry and I don't need to because I've kept records of my past results. I weigh everything I use, before and after, then use those records when designing the next ferments.

Small adjustments are often all you need to up your game.

That's probably the best way. But not everyone has been doing this as long as you have...

And what happens when someone changes water sources?

[Hügelwilli]

When you add acids and bases for buffering in usual amounts the properties of your water have no influence anymore. At least if you distill it.

[Ben]

When you add acids and bases for buffering in usual amounts the properties of your water have no influence anymore. At least if you distill it.

The OP is not talking about distilled product. He is talking about fermentation pH. So yes, any acid/base/salt additions are going to "influence".

[Hügelwilli]

Perhaps my bad English. Or perhaps you didn't read with enough attention.
I mean "At least if you distill it after fermentation." Not making beer but whiskey.
And no, I write about the influence of the water properties, not about the influence of the additives.