Frozen Grape Juice Brandy: one run or two?

[Copper]

So I’m going to run a frozen grape juice brandy in an alembic still. Details below. This is my first grape brandy. My question to those with lots of experience: one run or two? I’ve read enough forum posts to make my eyes bleed. Lots of fruit recipes but not much detailed discussion on the difference between one run or two, or differentiation of when to use one run, or when to use two.

Details

I make Federweisser with fermented frozen grape juice. Sometimes I distill a small amount (i.e. 500mL) to make a small amount of raw brandy, served still steaming from the apparatus. This time I purchase enough for 25L batch (it costs me about 25EUR, expensive batch for me). Since the 25L alembic has different characteristics than 500mL laboratory glassware, my process might need changing.

Recipe

I don't necessarily want this to devolve into a discussion about recipes, sugar additions, soft water, or yeast selection. This is included for context of the primary topic.

12 cans frozen grape juice (216 g sugar per can for 2600g total)
2400g sugar (I meant to add less but made a mistake)
Fill to 22 liters
Total (2600 + 2400 = 5000g sugar) is 225g/L for 1.085 expected SG
40g calcium carbonate premixed with water (I have very soft water)
1 tbs yeast nutrient
Pinch Epsom salts
Pure O2 with diffuser stone
Fermpro 921 yeast (prepared two days in advance 1L water and 100mg dried malt extract)

[OtisT]

You should do Two runs.

Almost every spirit you will make should be run twice. The low wines produced on your first run (stripping run) are rarely something you would want to drink. The spirit is cleaned up a great deal on the second run (spirit run), as long as you don’t run too fast and you make good cuts.

Otis

[Salt Must Flow]

I've done frozen concentrate grape juice and it turned out pretty darn nice in my opinion especially after a bit of time on oak. I stripped then did a spirit run with just a basic pot still. I didn't add any sugar to mine, I just did straight grape concentrate and the SG was 1.066.

[jonnys_spirit]

+1 on two runs. Maybe reserve some of the fermented juice to top up low wines for a 1.5 spirit run.

Cheers!
-j

[Saltbush Bill]

a small amount of raw brandy, served still steaming from the apparatus.

Why is your product so hot that it is "steaming hot" leaving the still?........something wrong there as I see it, its also dangerous to have ethanol vapour leaving a still for a number of reasons.

[Copper]

Wow, many thanks to the contributors!

1. I'll plan on two runs in the alembic. I will "intercept" the stripping run a couple times to sample the output, just for experience.
2. For single servings (as I mention in the introduction), I use a Soxhlet Extractor for making single servings from a 500mL boiler (no.2 in the wikipedia drawing). I stop the process before the thimble (no.4) siphons and recycles (no.6 and 7) . Since the thimble is right above the boiler, it retains some heat. Therefore, the product is still "steaming" from the process. The Soxhlet path (no.3) is a semi-reflux column. I have learned to like this brandy. But this is off-topic of the OP.
3. I probably used too much sugar in my recipe. My next recipe will use more grape juice and less sugar. This is also off-topic of the OP.
4. LUCKY! To the person that finds low-cost wine kits! I can't find anything that makes 20L+ for less than 80EUR. Frozen grape juice, only available in one nearby market, is apparently my only option. All the other markets do not have it. Sadly, I think that frozen grape juice will eventually go away.

[Salt Must Flow]

If you're doing a spirit run and using a "Soxhlet Extractor for making single servings" ... if I were there I'd pass on drinking it at least until you hit the hearts. You may already know this, but my point is ... I would NOT want to drink a shot of pure heads. Typically when doing a spirit run you collect in many relatively small containers. Only once the entire run is completed you make cuts, dilute to drinking strength and consume.

[Copper]

If you're doing a spirit run and using a "Soxhlet Extractor for making single servings" ... if I were there I'd pass on drinking it at least until you hit the hearts. You may already know this, but my point is ... I would NOT want to drink a shot of pure heads. Typically when doing a spirit run you collect in many relatively small containers. Only once the entire run is completed you make cuts, dilute to drinking strength and consume.

OK, let's stay on topic. I will start another thread to discuss my Soxhlet Extractor technique for single shots from small amounts of Federweisser. The OP of this thread was for 20L+ batch size, which has nothing similar to a single-shot technique. The OP question was "When running 20L+ size batches in an alembic still, should I perform one run or two" and what the difference was between a careful single run vs. doing two runs.

So far, the consensus is doing two runs, a stripping run and a spirit run, both using the alembic still.

[jonnys_spirit]

And you’d typically collect your spirit run in 20 fractions then choose your heads, hearts, and tails cuts by smell, taste, and feel. Sight too if any are cloudy. Cuts are covered elsewhere in detail.

Cheers!
-j

[Copper]

You should do Two runs.

Almost every spirit you will make should be run twice. The low wines produced on your first run (stripping run) are rarely something you would want to drink. The spirit is cleaned up a great deal on the second run (spirit run), as long as you don’t run too fast and you make good cuts.

More detail:

1. On a normal stripping run, I will catch the first ~150mL as foreshots and throw away. This reduces foreshots in the spirit run. For the brandy, should I throw away stripping run foreshots or wait for the spirit run?
2. I usually continue a stripping run until ABV 20% (this happens at about 96C head temperature on my setup). Should I stop at 40% ABV (about 95C) for the brandy, or is it OK to keep stripping for longer?
3. My stripping runs usually take 5 hours once the charge is boiling because I slightly adjust the power controller to elongate the time and get higher quality stripping. For a brandy, how long should the stripping run take? Should I run at full power for faster stripping on purpose?
4. How long should the spirit run take for a brandy? I can use the power controller to reduce heating to achieve a specific running time.

[jonnys_spirit]

For the strip run it hard and fast like you stole it.

Take a fore-shot low and slow if you like. I take a fore shot every time I run it. First jar or half jar is low and slow.

Then for a strip i’ll crank it up to full power fairly quickly and strip until the avg abv in the receiving vessel (carboy) is about 25-30%’ish = low wines.

Spirit run is a low and slow fores jar then more power until a pencil lead stream into 20 jars. I might ramp up to a pencil lead stream slowly over 3-4 jars.

In any case experiment with different techniques and blends fir your cuts

Good fruitiness will normally be in the heads to hearts transition and you probably don’t want any tails for a brandy.

Hope it turns out well!

Cheers,
Jonny

[Copper]

What is a good dilution ratio of low wines + water in the boiler for the spirit run? I usually fill the boiler to 25L to lower the boiler ABV, increase thermal mass, and dilute the impurities.

But with a brandy, some "impurities" may be desirable and not need as much dilution. What is the best way to load the spirit run charge?

[jonnys_spirit]

The best way IMO is to use wine not water. More for top-up than dilution as a 1.5 run if you run your low wines down to 30'ish ABV. Water dilutes the flavor which is hard earned for brandy..

Cheers!
-j

EDIT:
I sorta think about it like making soup - Do you prefer to use stock or water in your soup?

[Bradster68]

The best way IMO is to use wine not water. More for top-up than dilution as a 1.5 run if you run your low wines down to 30'ish ABV. Water dilutes the flavor which is hard earned for brandy..

Cheers!
-j

EDIT:
I sorta think about it like making soup - Do you prefer to use stock or water in your soup?

+1 again Jonny. I make brandy from red wine kits constantly. I Get em cheap. Super easy. Twice through,aged on taosted and some on charred oak. Never had anyone not like it.

[Haurly]

OK, let's stay on topic. I will start another thread to discuss my Soxhlet Extractor technique for single shots from small amounts of Federweisser...

I'm new to the site and know this post is a little dated, but am fascinated by this extractor. Would love to see a thread on it if you're still willing, Copper.

I imagine the product has a flavour profile more like the single run brandy I'm used to. I learned on an alembic and have only used that, doing single runs but still taking cuts and blending for final taste. Double runs when using for making liqueurs. Glad I found this site, so much info worth sifting through. I'm excited to try two runs and so many other things... in time.

But am really curious about that Soxhlet extractor and what you get out of it.