Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Distillation methods and improvements.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
bilgriss
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 pm
Location: Southeast-ish.

Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by bilgriss »

I always make cuts from jars after a couple days of airing out, as is the prevailing wisdom. This works well for me, and as everyone knows, if you do everything the same way each time, it's easier to spot differences from run to run. However, there have been a number of discussions in the past year or so on the forum in which someone has challenged this protocol, or simply isn't aware of it, and that someone is quite certain that their method works just fine. So....... I was thinking I would do it both ways and take some careful notes to see what kinds of decisions I might make using either approach.

Setup and general methods:
Over the past few months, I fermented and stripped four generations of UJSSM. Got five or six gallons in a carboy, and waited till I found time (New Years Eve) to run a slow spirit run. I decided I'd oak this one, and depending on how it turns out, I may blend it in later with a cornmeal whiskey I apparently over-oaked a couple of years back. Or I'll keep it by itself. We'll see. I run a fairly small 8 gallon electric still, and for the spirit run, I ran slow, at about 7 amps for the whole run. Over a few hours, I collected into pint jars, filled about 3/4 inch below the top. After each jar, I took a spoonful of it, diluted in a glencairn glass, and noted taste and smell. Then covered with paper towels and set aside for a couple days. Two days later, I repeated the exercise of smelling and tasting each jar using a similar method of diluting etc. Made notes. Then I compared my notes and what decisions I made for cuts to see what was similar, what had changed, and what decisions would have been different, if any. During the run, I first removed about the first quart for my solvent jar, so for the pints collected, jar 1 is really starting at about jar 3, if I had kept it all. Altogether I collected 21 jars.

Notes while distilling:
Jars 1&2 smelled fruity and of acetone, plus a little sharp. Obvious heads.
Jar 3 smelled clean. I didn't smell anything off or headsy. Surprised, but I also tasted and the flavor seemed okay as well.
Jars 4, 5, 6 and 7 smelled nice to me. I also tasted them, and decided I'd call them hearts.
Jar 8 I tagged 'later hearts'. It seemed a little flatter, but was a clean sipper.
Jar 9 I tagged end of hearts.
Jar 10 I noted "1st cardboard". It smelled and tasted pretty good overall, but there was a hint of tails in an overtone.
Jars 11-14 I found similar, and noted "slight tails, not bad though".
Jar 15 "more obvious tails".
Jars 16-18 I noted were tailsy, but sweet. Strong enough I wouldn't want them in the final whiskey.
Jar 19 "Tails but flavorful"
Jar 20-21 - Smelly. All out funk, dog, cardboard with little corn.

At the time, I was a little surprised at how short the heads portion seemed, but if I went strictly on what I was aiming for, keeping some edges for a little complexity, I'd have blended jars 4-14 and called it done. Nothing stood out past those edges that I'd want to combine.

Notes after 2 days:
Jar 1 - Strong acetone and fruity smell.
Jar 2 - Strong notes of heads but also corn. Lots of corn flavor, but strong heads backend.
Jar 3 - Heads. Flavor was "yuck"
Jar 4 - A little headsy, mostly in the aroma, which I did not like. Not a good aftertaste - sharp and acrid leftovers.
Jar 5 - A little heads. Mostly in the aroma. Lots of flavor. But still a not-go probably, as the aftertaste was still not pleasant.
Jar 6 - Lots of corn flavor. Still a tiny bit of headsy stuff in the background, but subtle. Left more with corn than anything else in aftertaste.
Jar 7 - Nice finish. Maybe still a tiny bit left of the initial heads stuff, but so little it will certainly age out and be diluted by following bottles. Keep.
Jar 8 - Good sipper
Jar 9 - neutral-ish
Jar 10 - Pretty neutral. Very slight acrid thing going on, hint of something to come. Not bad.
Jar 11 - Tiny bit of cardboard? Good flavor overall to contribute. Okay.
Jar 12- Clean.
Jar 13 - Clean. Sweetness emerging. Light body.
Jar 14 - Clean. Corn.
Jar 15 - Clean. Corn.
Jar 16 - Pretty clean. Maybe a tiny hint of tails lingering, but questionable. Sweetness. Corn. Taste doesn't linger.
Jar 17 - Sweet. Slight tailsiness. Good for blend, not unpleasant.
Jar 18 - Sweet. First hint of tails in aroma. Not bad, but it's present.
Jar 19 - Drier. Tails aroma bleeding through.
Jars20-21 - Tails. Too strong. Oily.

It seemed obvious to me that there was more nuance between certain jars after two days. Whereas jars 11-14 seemed pretty similar on distilling day, they were distinctly different later. I decided to keep jars 6-17 for aging at 57% on a little charred oak, half toasted at 400F for 2hrs and half untoasted but charred. Went a little wider on cuts than I would for a white sipper for sure, but I think the extra flavors in the edge jars will improve the aged whiskey with time.

Conclusions:
First, this isn't a qualitative set of judgments. That is, I'm not trying to determine which is "better". That would only be possible in a couple years had I done two identical batches, made different cuts, and judged the final product. Rather, I'm just trying to see what is different in my experience and decision making from the two approaches. Here are the things that occurred to me.

At distilling day, I would have saved jars 4-14 for aging.
Two days later, I saved jars 6-17, plus a dash of 18 for the sweetness.
Overall, I made slightly wider cuts two days later based on what I perceived to be greater nuance. However, it was wider towards the later part of the run. I would have included jars 4 and 5 the first go, which I perceived as pretty objectionable two days later. That was the biggest change overall, I think. I included jars 15-17 due to their compelling flavors and sweetness, despite a very little bit of early tails. On day 1, I noted that jar 17 was tailsy but sweet, but found the tails aroma to be too much. Jars 1-14 I found almost identical on day 1, but shifting from corn to neutral and back two days later.

I did pick up on some specifics the same each day. Jar 10 had something that emerged hinting at cardboard in both cases, but it was faint. The general progression from heads to hearts to tails happened, although at slightly different perceived places. The overall flavor was apparent and similar.

I don't think any of this alters my approach or future procedures. But in my mind, it confirms the fact that the product in the jars changes after airing out for a couple days, and that it changes significantly enough that I might make different choices. That point has been argued in a number of threads, with some people taking the position that it's irrelevant or not impactful. My conclusion is that, for me, that isn't so.
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3980
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by Deplorable »

This isn't surprising to me. I think that if you're trying to make a selection on the fly without the experience of what that jars is going to contribute LATER, you're going to miss your cuts. I think part of it is that your senses are getting a little numbed while tending the still. You're constantly sniffing, rubbing and tasting.
I always find I need a shower and clean clothes, as well as a chance for the garage to air out. Once I've done that, the jars are a whole new experience.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

It’s a good challenge to try cuts on the fly, but requires a lot of experience to do it with confidence. It’s best to still collect in small jars as you learn. Your perceptions early vs airing are usually the case when you’re learning cuts, you’ll go wider than you would after some airing time.

Tasting/sniffing while running the still is a good practice and can help you shave some time off for your final cut with jars. When you take good notes, it’s easier to get a baseline for the general transitions for both heads and tails. The hardest fraction for me is tails. There’s a lot of good flavor down there that can be tinged with too much funk, that is harder to detect without a little time in a jar. If I was planning on aging for a VERY long time, I could get away with including a bit more of it. I usually guess correctly for heads almost every run.

Over the years, after A LOT of practice, I can get within one jar of where my final cuts are. There have been a handful of times where I got it right at the still and had I just collected my hearts in one big vessel, it would have been perfect.
User avatar
bunny
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:28 am

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by bunny »

Hi!
I don't know much about pot stilling, however i have a couple of questions that may help me understand a little better.

1) After airing for two days, how do you account for jars 4 & 5 getting worse than they were off the still?

2) Could your senses have been more or less out of alignment because of the time you spent sniffing the air around the still all day? Kind of like at the end of the day the barn doesn't smell quite so bad any more?

xxx: posting with Deplorable and BrewinBrian
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:54 am It’s a good challenge to try cuts on the fly, but requires a lot of experience to do it with confidence. It’s best to still collect in small jars as you learn. Your perceptions early vs airing are usually the case when you’re learning cuts, you’ll go wider than you would after some airing time.

Tasting/sniffing while running the still is a good practice and can help you shave some time off for your final cut with jars. When you take good notes, it’s easier to get a baseline for the general transitions for both heads and tails. The hardest fraction for me is tails. There’s a lot of good flavor down there that can be tinged with too much funk, that is harder to detect without a little time in a jar. If I was planning on aging for a VERY long time, I could get away with including a bit more of it. I usually guess correctly for heads almost every run.

Over the years, after A LOT of practice, I can get within one jar of where my final cuts are. There have been a handful of times where I got it right at the still and had I just collected my hearts in one big vessel, it would have been perfect.
Edit:

After seeing your amount of posts on HD, you’re far from a novice, so if there’s any undertones like I’m talking to a novice, it’s not directed towards you haha.
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by Twisted Brick »

bilgriss wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:55 am
Overall, I made slightly wider cuts two days later based on what I perceived to be greater nuance. However, it was wider towards the later part of the run. I would have included jars 4 and 5 the first go, which I perceived as pretty objectionable two days later.

I don't think any of this alters my approach or future procedures. But in my mind, it confirms the fact that the product in the jars changes after airing out for a couple days, and that it changes significantly enough that I might make different choices. That point has been argued in a number of threads, with some people taking the position that it's irrelevant or not impactful. My conclusion is that, for me, that isn't so.
Good analysis and write up, bilgriss.

I learned early on that hydrometer readings of each jar off the spout differed slightly 2 days later. The fresh takeoff heads initially tasted fat and buttery compared to sharp and medicinal 24-48hrs later.

As such, it appears making cuts off the spout requires a spontaneous adjustment to account for this heads variance. I believe that differences in grain bills, mash and ferment performance, yeast used etc can all contribute to a potential difference in total heads volume, giving an on-the-fly adjustment yet another variable.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13038
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by NZChris »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:34 am The fresh takeoff heads initially tasted fat and buttery compared to sharp and medicinal 24-48hrs later.
I would have thought fat and buttery trumped sharp and medicinal.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by Yummyrum »

NZChris wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:31 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:34 am The fresh takeoff heads initially tasted fat and buttery compared to sharp and medicinal 24-48hrs later.
I would have thought fat and buttery trumped sharp and medicinal.
I hate fat and butter .

Seriously though , good onya bilgriss for taking the time to try both and post it up .

I agree with comments about dulled senses on distilling day . Although I can pretty much ball park on the fly , I still leave things for at least a day for the final cut .

All I need to be able to detect on the fly is when into hearts to switch to a bigger collection vessel and when the very first hint of tails comes to switch back to jars again .
Fortunately my tails taste is extremely acute so I never miss that one .

Edit: thats for Neutral's . Pot and plated stuff all goes into jars .
SDEngr1
Novice
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:20 pm

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by SDEngr1 »

I do my cuts on the fly after reducing to 70 proof for tasting and try to take smaller segments before and after the changes from heads to hearts to tails. Then I air out for 24 hours and taste again before jarring. Some times the smaller segments make it and sometimes not. The key, I believe is to reduce the proof to 70 to get an accurate flavor and smell profile.
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by Twisted Brick »

NZChris wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:31 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:34 am The fresh takeoff heads initially tasted fat and buttery compared to sharp and medicinal 24-48hrs later.
I would have thought fat and buttery trumped sharp and medicinal.
You and me both. Its crazy how much heads can change after a two-day rest.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13038
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by NZChris »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:41 am You and me both. It’s crazy how much heads can change after a two-day rest.
I wouldn’t know as with flavored products I usually choose my cuts on the day, and by tasting sample blends rather than individual jars. Heads and tails are in the same jar with some wood before I leave the shed.

By tasting blends, the heart cut can be chosen without buggering up my tastebuds by tasting numerous early and late jars. Some products get selected with as few as half a dozen tastings.

I never taste the first jar as I already know that it’s never going to make the cut. It goes straight into the feints collection so that I can reuse the jar.

My obvious hearts jars always get a bung as there is nothing in them that I want to share. I also don’t like to have concentrated esters wafting out of the shed door after I’ve gone to the trouble of creating and capturing them. That’s a trick I save for making neutral.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10344
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by shadylane »

I'm not very good at guessing what the different jars are going to taste like in the future.
That's why I wait a few days to several weeks before blending.

I only use jugs with a tightly packed, cotton cloth stopper for airing out the liquor.
Too much is lost having a jar setting open.

I dilute to around 20% when sampling.
The lower proof makes it easier for me to decide what makes the cut.
Last edited by shadylane on Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13038
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by NZChris »

I'm not very good at guessing what the different jars are going to do to for the heart cut.That's why I taste prospective blends rather than jars.

I’m often surprised when a jar that I was sure would spoil the flavor of the sample blend actually improves it.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10344
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by shadylane »

+1 NZ on making small test blends.

It's also good to have several friends for taste testers.
What I'm making has a lot to do with what gets blended in.
Neutral, rum, whiskey and brandy all get treated much differently.

My moto for blending is don't get into a rush and don't get greedy.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3623
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by jonnys_spirit »

The feints cut is almost as important to me as the hearts cut because i’ll recycle feints into next spirit run of that same spirit. Keeping a feints carboy helps me not get greedy on the hearts cut since I’ll be running it again anyway :)

I cover my fraction jars with a dish towel for a couple days as I test and determine the blend. First couple jars go straight into the fores/solvent jug.

I recently did a couple grappahead spirit runs and ended up being less conservative and going with a slightly wider hearts cut than normal since I knew I would be re running the hearts with an additional third distillation infusion/maceration step which would result in a further small heads/tails cut.

Cheers!
Jonny
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
bilgriss
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 pm
Location: Southeast-ish.

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by bilgriss »

All good comments and aligned with where I'd expect the conversation to go.

I do think it's possible that taste/smell fatigue could contribute to the differing results. However, I would say the biggest differences in what I experienced were in the late heads jars. Several (like the noted jars 4-5 Bunny mentioned) tasted surprisingly nice to me on still day, and not so much later. In particular, the sort of sweet/rubbery thing that shows up early which I really don't like (and probably don't describe well) wasn't there at all, but was objectionable after the wait. And some of the onset of tails, particularly aroma, which I felt I picked up on initially seemed to have aired out or just wasn't there any more in late hearts. So any number of things could impact that, and by no means do I think I'm a supertaster or anything, but I feel like I usually know what I'm smelling and tasting.

The variance and subjectivity of the whole thing is fascinating to me. Even more so when you consider the people who do blending of barrels for a living who manage to get a consistent product week to week, month to month, and year to year.
LordL
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am
Location: Earth

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by LordL »

Taste is tricky!

Sometimes the difference of puke to raspberry is a dilution of factor ten, and the aromas that makes huge difference can sometimes be measured in ppm as we all know.

By knowing this, i try to dilute my cuts/ jars proportionally as to what their end result would be. A 1dl jar in a 1l total would be diluted as a tenth before even trying. And then on top of that, how would that taste behave together with the rest as a true final blend.

I guess a "shortcut" to being good is to do the same recipe over and over again, collecting consistency in results and relate each cut to the end results over time. It shouldn't take more than 10 years 8h/ day or so.. ;)

In the meanwhile, I just try to do my best. :)
20L Boiler
2" Piping
Potstill
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by squigglefunk »

yeah I am not at the point yet where I feel consistent enough to make cuts on the fly while running the still. I am for sure still collecting jars and picking my cuts a couple days or weeks later.

I have also tried with no "airing" - just kept the separate jars covered for a while and it still does make a difference of course. I'm not sure the "airing" part is even necessary but I still use it a lot of the time
LordL
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 am
Location: Earth

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by LordL »

squigglefunk wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:21 am yeah I am not at the point yet where I feel consistent enough to make cuts on the fly while running the still. I am for sure still collecting jars and picking my cuts a couple days or weeks later.

I have also tried with no "airing" - just kept the separate jars covered for a while and it still does make a difference of course. I'm not sure the "airing" part is even necessary but I still use it a lot of the time
Yes. I can imagine the airing is as much to give the nose a couple of days to recover from sniffing that stuff for several days sometimes. 😁
20L Boiler
2" Piping
Potstill
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: Cuts at the still versus after airing out 2 days

Post by Steve Broady »

squigglefunk wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:21 am I have also tried with no "airing" - just kept the separate jars covered for a while and it still does make a difference of course. I'm not sure the "airing" part is even necessary but I still use it a lot of the time
I’ve started doing the same, once I realized that I was likely to have a long wait between time to run the still and time to taste, blend, etc. I can’t say that it’s changed the flavor, but it certainly takes any time pressure off.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
Post Reply