No Mash No sugar

[Saltbush Bill]

I just did an all corn using the regular mash process with liquid enzymes and there is a world of difference in smell and taste between that and this yellow label all corn

And if you do an all corn using all malted corn and no liquid enzymes my guess is that it will taste different again.

[squigglefunk]

And if you do an all corn using all malted corn and no liquid enzymes my guess is that it will taste different again.

good point, there's different flavors in every process, I am just not sure the angel yeast is going to be the one I choose for whiskey lol...

I have a few days airing it out now, I will make my cuts tonight and it will be what it will be. Some kind of all corn whiskey. Who knows maybe in a year I will love it.

I have 60 lbs of rice to do next.

[squigglefunk]

upon further airing out the weirdness is starting to dissipate... I'm starting to be left with more of the corn flavor I expected. Its my first go with "koji" type ferments on corn , and I guess should be expected to be "different" than a regular all corn with liquid enzymes, so thanks to Saltbush Bill for pointing that out.

I am giving it another day of airing it's grievances before I make my cuts and blend it...

I might have jumped the gun and made my decision too quickly... oooOOOOps

[Sarge410884]

I have done a 10 galon mash wth brown,white rice and oats. No sugar, maitained 86 degree farenheit until completed. I go 1 1/2 gallons of distillate at 40 % abv, very easy i have an excellent base for a rice whiskey.
Sarge410884

[squigglefunk]

in the end I have decided my first batch of all corn yellow label is not bad, a hint of cherry cough syrup might only add to the complexity after being on oak for a year or so ...

[SGB]

Man.. I don't know.. What kind of gravity readings are you guys getting. I'm doing my first one. Im not sure actually, but I think my starting was difficult to obtain.. But after I put the yeast it looked really low.. Like 1.020 -1.030? It finished at, .990 I'll run it tomorrow after it clears and settles and see what I get but it's not looking great.. Like 5%. I think I did a 1:4 ratio corn water . Same process. Dumped boiling water in it added yeast the next morning . I actually did not stir it though the first 3 days ..maybe just one day because it looked very active. Well, we'll see what happens.. But it's not looking as good as my other stuff in terms of wash, %

[squigglefunk]

Man.. I don't know.. What kind of gravity readings are you guys getting.

as far as I know you can't really work it that way. I don't think you can obtain a "starting gravity" because the sugars haven't been converted yet? It's kind of an ongoing process?

I think its more like a "when it's done bubbling, and everything settles it's done"

[elbono]

What kind of gravity readings are you guys getting. I'm doing my first one.

Never took one, never needed one. Just follow the directions (at least fairly closely) and it works.

This stuff confuses people because it is so SIMPLE! It just works without all the complicated stuff you normally do.

[Dancing4dan]

Like the guys said. SG is meaningless. The conversion of the carbohydrate to sugar is occurring at the same time the yeast is converting sugar to alcohol.

Ferment until it stops fermenting.

I find stirring first three days helps a lot. As per instructions.

[elbono]

I find stirring first three days helps a lot. As per instructions.

That's how I judge progress, you can feel the grain going away

[Unknown0ne]

Are you guys degassing your mash 1-2 times per day for the first 2-4 days?!?
If not.... you should be. It gets rid of that "off" flavor and speeds up the process.
This stuff is amazing.

[SGB]

OK thanks.. I figured as much about the SG. I'm stripping now . We'll see in the end. Thanks
Edit: almost at the end of the first strip and so far so good.. I'm actually kinda impressed.
I've been using this Yellow Lable for a couple years now with rice doing wine and liquor .. Nice change to do the corn especially being it's about half price the rice
Thanks again

[squigglefunk]

Are you guys degassing your mash 1-2 times per day for the first 2-4 days?!?
If not.... you should be. It gets rid of that "off" flavor and speeds up the process.
This stuff is amazing.

I definitely did stir my "weird" batch of all corn yellow cake every 12 hrs for the first 3 days and it for sure smelled and tasted "off" to me when running on the still compared to any run I've ever done.

but it has rapidly improved with some time and airing out. I think I just need to work with this stuff more. My friend asked for another jar, he says it's one of his favorite batches so far of white dog...

I am not sold on it for making whiskey, but it definitely works well from my experiences.

[squigglefunk]

Edit: almost at the end of the first strip and so far so good.. I'm actually kinda impressed.

yes, I was impressed with how much booze it produced, It does seem to chew the grain up pretty good, I got great efficiency from it.

[squigglefunk]

so does anyone on the "no mash no sugar" method use regular "cracked corn" without any milling?

if so wanna share your process for some good ole fashioned spoon feeding?

I can get 80lb bags of the reg cracked for like 13 bucks so it would be even cheaper than the "fine cracked" I used the first time and hey I am a cheap bastage

[Dancing4dan]

so does anyone on the "no mash no sugar" method use regular "cracked corn" without any milling?

if so wanna share your process for some good ole fashioned spoon feeding?

I can get 80lb bags of the reg cracked for like 13 bucks so it would be even cheaper than the "fine cracked" I used the first time and hey I am a cheap bastage

I haven't.

Would be interesting to see how it would work. I suspect a long slow ferment.

[Unknown0ne]

so does anyone on the "no mash no sugar" method use regular "cracked corn" without any milling?

if so wanna share your process for some good ole fashioned spoon feeding?

I can get 80lb bags of the reg cracked for like 13 bucks so it would be even cheaper than the "fine cracked" I used the first time and hey I am a cheap bastage

I haven't.

Would be interesting to see how it would work. I suspect a long slow ferment.

They key is using a heating pad with an inkbird to keep the fermentation temp around 88-90F. I use a 7 gallon brew bucket wrapped in a blanket. That makes sure the yeast are happy, and stay productive the whole time = faster ferment.

[NZChris]

so does anyone on the "no mash no sugar" method use regular "cracked corn" without any milling?

Only once. There was still some starch left at the end. I used 85C water and didn't insulate the fermenter. I suspect putting more heat and time into gelatinization would have improved the yield.

The further you stray from Angel's recommendations, the poorer your results will be. When they say the finer the grind the better, they are not wrong.

[SGB]

so does anyone on the "no mash no sugar" method use regular "cracked corn" without any milling?

I think that's what I used??.. Being this is my first go at it. I just bought chicken corn meal.. It's about the size of sand pebbles , they do have different grades, like 1-7 ..I guess the higher the # the finer all the way to something like grits. It did not all dissolve into to mush however I ended up getting the same results as I do with my sugar shine so I guess the wash was about 8-9%
I can't seem to figure out the math but 16-17 litres gave me 4 litres at 40%
I might go with the grits size next as NZChris said Angel recommends finer
I'm doing the spirit run now so let's see how it goes

[rubberduck71]

Coarse grind corn meal from my local Restaurant Store is perfect.

I didn't grind medium grade rice & it worked just fine.

But your "standard" grain I do either purchase pre-milled, or borrow my buddy's grain mill.

[bcook608]

Well, after reading this thread twice, I think I'm going to give YLAY a try and see what kind of trouble I can get into!
Anyone have a decent source for the US other than Ali so I can get it faster without having to pay the $40 per 500g that Amazon wants?

[Unknown0ne]

Well, after reading this thread twice, I think I'm going to give YLAY a try and see what kind of trouble I can get into!
Anyone have a decent source for the US other than Ali so I can get it faster without having to pay the $40 per 500g that Amazon wants?

Just gotta pay the $40 from amazon...

[bcook608]

Well, after reading this thread twice, I think I'm going to give YLAY a try and see what kind of trouble I can get into!
Anyone have a decent source for the US other than Ali so I can get it faster without having to pay the $40 per 500g that Amazon wants?

Just gotta pay the $40 from amazon...

Guess that's what I'll have to do! Convenience and speed costs

[rubberduck71]

Chase the Craft has YLAY, but from what I see, not shipping to U.S. yet...

[SGB]

Well, after reading this thread twice, I think I'm going to give YLAY a try and see what kind of trouble I can get into!
Anyone have a decent source for the US other than Ali so I can get it faster without having to pay the $40 per 500g that Amazon wants?

That's a lot of $$$ it should be more like $10 plus shipping
Try aliexpress if you can't find it. It's cheap yeast

[bcook608]

Well, after reading this thread twice, I think I'm going to give YLAY a try and see what kind of trouble I can get into!
Anyone have a decent source for the US other than Ali so I can get it faster without having to pay the $40 per 500g that Amazon wants?

That's a lot of $$$ it should be more like $10 plus shipping
Try aliexpress if you can't find it. It's cheap yeast

I would, but I don't want to have to wait until the end of February or middle of March to get them
Maybe I'll order a few packs and then get one from amazon while I wait for them.

[SGB]

Impressive is all I got to say.
From my 16liter wash I got 4 litres of low wine
4/16x40% = 10% wash... That's impressive considering I did basically nothing and being the first go at it
The spirit run fro 2 washes gave me about 2 litres of keepers as well as another 2.5 feints so about 4.5 total not counting the huge fore I tossed .. I took a shot glass and dumped a few espresso beans in it for a hypersonic aging taste test comparable to aging with wood as well as a dog shot, impressed by both.. No strang baby puke taste of smell others have mentioned.. Just.. very corny lol..in fact in the jar I labeled it as Corn Dog..

[Big_dog]

Started a 5 gallon rice batch a few days ago and bubbling along nicely. With the huge corn batch I did about a year ago I just finely milled, but for a small batch like this, and it being rice, a big ol rice cooker just makes it so easy to cook the rice. I also get a snack.
I’ll update on if there’s much of a difference in yield to corn. Corn is way cheaper, but I also used about half the amount of rice (a bit over a lb to gallon). Corn I think I used about 2-3 lbs per gallon.

Also, the corn was a STRONG corn flavor, even with strip and spirit. I’m looking for something hopefully a bit more neutral, but still has that no sugar taste - can’t stand it for some reason.

[elbono]

I’ll update on if there’s much of a difference in yield to corn. Corn is way cheaper, but I also used about half the amount of rice (a bit over a lb to gallon). Corn I think I used about 2-3 lbs per gallon.

My yeild on rice was a lot higher than corn. Once I read the label I realized rice has more starch per pound than corn.

Here's some notes I made:

1 pound sugar = 8.4 oz alcohol = 15 #/gallon
20 pounds corn = 1 gallon = 20 #/gallon
20 pounds rice = 1.5 gallon = 13 #/gallon
20 pounds all purpose flour = 1.33 gallon = 15#/gallon

Corn $15/50# = 0.3 $/#
Rice $10/25# = 0.4 $/#
Sugar $15/25# = 0.6 $/#
Flour $4/10# = 0.4$/#

Corn ethanol = 6 $/gallon
Rice ethanol = 5.2 $/gallon
Sugar ethanol = 9 $/gallon
Flour ethanol = 6 $/gallon

All of that data is based on pure ethanol yield (I backed out proof). Grains used YLAY, sugar used a slightly modified Shady's sugar shine. I use 2 pounds/gallon grain/water. Corn and rice were ground to about the size of grits in a Corona mill.

Ingredients were cheapest grocery store varieties (Costco) I could find except the tractor supply whole feed corn. The whole corn is cheaper, cleaner and easier to work with.

AliExpress price is about 1/2 Amazon but you do have to wait.

[Big_dog]

My yeild on rice was a lot higher than corn. Once I read the label I realized rice has more starch per pound than corn.

Here's some notes I made:

1 pound sugar = 8.4 oz alcohol = 15 #/gallon
20 pounds corn = 1 gallon = 20 #/gallon
20 pounds rice = 1.5 gallon = 13 #/gallon
20 pounds all purpose flour = 1.33 gallon = 15#/gallon

Corn $15/50# = 0.3 $/#
Rice $10/25# = 0.4 $/#
Sugar $15/25# = 0.6 $/#
Flour $4/10# = 0.4$/#

Corn ethanol = 6 $/gallon
Rice ethanol = 5.2 $/gallon
Sugar ethanol = 9 $/gallon
Flour ethanol = 6 $/gallon

All of that data is based on pure ethanol yield (I backed out proof). Grains used YLAY, sugar used a slightly modified Shady's sugar shine. I use 2 pounds/gallon grain/water. Corn and rice were ground to about the size of grits in a Corona mill.

Ingredients were cheapest grocery store varieties (Costco) I could find except the tractor supply whole feed corn. The whole corn is cheaper, cleaner and easier to work with.

AliExpress price is about 1/2 Amazon but you do have to wait.

Dang that’s some great info - so rice actually comes out cheaper - that is good to know! As I love some rice wine (hopefully will like the liquor too) and the leftover rice in the wine/sake I’ve made is pretty tasty too