No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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elbono
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

Big_dog wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:46 am so rice actually comes out cheaper
At least for me, where I am, when I bought the ingredients. Of course YMMV.

Some of that will end up in the feints jug. One of my most neutral neutral runs came from feints treated with washing soda though.

I feel that the YLAY maximizes the yeild from grain because it eliminates most of the ways I can screw up a ferment.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Unknown0ne »

Sooooo....... my last batch I did an experiment with corn meal and wheat flour. I am still waiting for it to finish, but the fermentation kicked off so violently it bubbled up almost 3" and caked the top of the lid, and almost pushed all the liquid out of the bubbler.
I used 7Lb of yellow corn meal, and 3Lb of wheat AP flour, no sugar, in an 8 gal bucket.
Most of the fermenting is probably done with by now, but I am waiting out the full 2 weeks to make sure.
For those of you starting out with YLAY, if you want to de-gas without having as much mess and wasted time... I use this with a drill. Makes life much easier and faster to do the daily baby sitting.

https: //www.amazon.com/dp/B071DZRNBM?psc=1&ref= ... ct_details

it whips it up nice, without stirring the whole contents into a whirlpool and spilling everywhere.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I used ap wheat flour with YLAY just to see what happens with flour. I thought I had plenty of head room but boy was I wrong.
16750330142731.jpg
I don't know if it was wheat or the fine grind of flour but it took off! Came out fine once I cleaned up the mess.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by ThomasBrewer »

What's the best process with wheat flour? Are folks simply mixing it with warm water, or are you bringing it to gelatinization temp? I have a couple bags of expired flour that I'd love to try this stuff on.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Unknown0ne »

ThomasBrewer wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:23 pm What's the best process with wheat flour? Are folks simply mixing it with warm water, or are you bringing it to gelatinization temp? I have a couple bags of expired flour that I'd love to try this stuff on.
I just dumped around 175F water in the bucket, then added the flour, corn meal, whipped it with the drill, then let it sit around 10 mins. Then topped off with cold water to get the temp down to around 100. tossed the yeast in and done.
I also dont bother rehydrating the yeast. With YLAY it is just an un-needed step, and wastes time that we all dont have enough of.

as a side note... since I use my boiler (still bottom) as the method to heat the water, the whole process from start to finish on this prep was like 30 mins. I have a 8500W coil in the boiler, so it makes pretty quick work of heating water.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I just treated it like anything else "hot" water, definitely not boiling, definitely didn't gelitinize it. I aim for pitching temp after mixing, it may need to set a little while to cool before pitching.

The biggest thing I noticed besides overflowing the container was it settled a bit more than a coarser grinds do I made sure to get it back up in suspension when stirring.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

elbono wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:37 amrice has more starch per pound than corn.
corn has a slightly higher PPG (Points/Pound/Gallon)

I think rice is just a heck of a lot easier to process
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

Don't know anything about points/pounds/gallon, sounds confusing.

What prompted me to look at it was when I distilled a ylay rice ferment I based how many jars I would need on what I get from corn/ylay. I had to scramble for more.

I happened to be a Costco today and looked at the label on the rice I used. It gives 35 gm starch for a 45 gram serving. That works out to almost 78% starch.
16751138619860.jpg
Don't have a label from any corn handy but a thread over at adi forums indicates corn has better than 70% starch.
https://adiforums.com/topic/6901-corn-starch-content/

Whatever I used for starch content of corn, it jived with the yield difference I list above.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

elbono wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:26 pm Don't know anything about points/pounds/gallon, sounds confusing.
basically corn and rice are about the same starch potential, I think corn is harder to extract all the starch from so rice will seem to give a "bigger" yield.

but I get a 50# of fine cracked corn for 13 bucks

rice costs me 10 bucks for 20 lbs so the corn might end up being cheaper for me

but in the end I am still not loving the all corn ferment I made from the magic yellow yeast and I doubt I will use it again for that purpose

I hope the rice will be better
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:43 am I hope the rice will be better
The rice makes a very good neutral.

The whiskey was... interesting? Hard to explain -- softer, sweeter mouth-feel? I both oaked & kept some white.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

rubberduck71 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:20 pm
squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:43 am I hope the rice will be better
The rice makes a very good neutral.

The whiskey was... interesting? Hard to explain -- softer, sweeter mouth-feel? I both oaked & kept some white.
yup, interesting... i also have over a gallon on oak and and about three quarts left of the clear.

my friend who drinks a sample of everything I make says it's his favorite white dog so far... I am not so sure, I think he says that about every new batch lol
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Big_dog »

Rice is going great, one stripping run down, a few more to go. Cooking it before hand makes it finish fermenting and turn to rice goo in about 4 days. Then I have some corn. Those have both been documented well so I won’t add anything about them.
BUT. what I’m real excited to try is bananas. I did a search and saw a mention early on in the thread about angel bread improver being used for them but no yellow label. If anyone else is interested, I’ll write up my process and the results when I finish up with the rice and corn bags I got.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Big_dog wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:37 am
BUT. what I’m real excited to try is bananas. I did a search and saw a mention early on in the thread about angel bread improver being used for them but no yellow label. If anyone else is interested, I’ll write up my process and the results when I finish up with the rice and corn bags I got.
I would love to see your results!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

did a batch of 60 lbs of rice, it smells much better coming off the still than the batch I did with corn? Maybe I ran the corn too soon, I let the rice sit for about a week longer in the fermenter. It also got a lacto infection like the corn one, and it had progressed more, completely covering the surface so that also changed the flavor some I'm sure.

I decided to give the corn another go with a twist, I took about 15 gallons of boiling hot rice back set, threw that into a 55 gallon fermenter on top of about 80lbs of fine cracked corn, stirred it up and let it sit overnight, then added warm water until it felt about the right pitching temp (couldn't find my thermometer) by the evening it was bubbling like mad with a strong Co2 smell. the next day I topped off the water to almost the top of the fermenter (about 25 more gallons I'd say) There were some doughballs at first but they broke up nicely when I was adding the final water and stirring.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

so what are people doing here with the trub/leftovers of this method?

I'm starting to think that's where the weird flavors are coming from for me.

The beer that I got trying to drain what was left of the "rice" did not smell good at all. I can only guess it's the addition of the mold they use as all the other ingredients are things I've always used for fermenting. It doesn't smell good in the yeast package either lol...

The distillate from the spirit run is much less weird smelling than my all corn run but ... I threw most of what was trapped in the grain/trub away, it smelled terrible.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

squigglefunk wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:47 am so what are people doing here with the trub/leftovers of this method?
I've done a sugar head for making neutral. That worked well.

I've used the starter on UJSSM trub to convert the starch for making neutral and that worked well too.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

NZChris wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:39 am
squigglefunk wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:47 am so what are people doing here with the trub/leftovers of this method?
I've done a sugar head for making neutral. That worked well.

I've used the starter on UJSSM trub to convert the starch for making neutral and that worked well too.
yeah maybe I am still being weird about this stuff, I have done sugar heads with this too and it weren't bad

i dont use much more than smell and taste tho and this yellow label smells different than other koji type yeasts that I've used...

there's no way I'm using that leftover rice slop for nothin tho. that's going in a deep hole out back
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

I didn't notice anything nasty about my rice trub. It was only a small ferment, so it wasn't worth doing a sugar head for some neutral.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

About all I get left is grain husks and a bit of other rubbish....I've tossed a bit of it into one of my UJSSM ferments.....but am beginning to wonder if what's left is worth the trouble.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB »

I've been taking the leftovers, giving it a good rinse a few times, then dry it in the sun and feed it to the pigs. Not sure if I need to go through all that trouble, I was just worried it might make them sick if I didn't rinse it clean/er
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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SGB wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:03 am I've been taking the leftovers, giving it a good rinse a few times, then dry it in the sun and feed it to the pigs. Not sure if I need to go through all that trouble, I was just worried it might make them sick if I didn't rinse it clean/er
or drunk.....

pickled pork maybe?
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I dump mine on the compost pile, what my stupid dog doesn't eat makes veggies grow. It's hard to tell if she's getting a buzz, she's pretty wacky.

The only time she puked some up was from a really nasty smelling experiment. I think that was over consumption, she chowed down on that batch.

Back in the day, pig slop sat around and smelled like there was fermentation was going on before it made it to the trough. Happy pigs make happy tasting pork.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by robe »

I am finally going to make some corn with Angel yellow. What I have come up with what I think is the definitive recipe for 30 L ( A little more than 6 us gal) is 75 grams yeast to 7.5 KG (16.5 lb) corn. 38C water and the rest is pretty clear. I also want to use malted rye and barley to make more of a Rye Whiskey flavor in a future ferment, One thing at a time. I think as long as I stay around the 7.5GK total grain, I should be good. Any comments?

One thing I read somewhere was the funky smell thing that can occur with the cracked corn animal feed. People said to add a teaspoon of citric acid to lower the PH would help to stop or slow down any unwanted growth. I don't know if anyone here has tried that. I think I will.

I am looking forward to trying this out as all my other ferments have been sugar with mashed flaked corn, malted barley and rye,
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I think your wasting yeast at that rate .
30L water 75 grams yeast 7.5 kg grain.
The instructions on the packs of yeast I have state.
250-300L water 500grams yeast 100kg grain.
I've never worked the ratios out for 7.5 kg grain.....but have done for 6kg.....that equates to..........
15-18L water 31grams yeast 6 kg of grain.
By my calculations even 12.5 kg of grain only needs 62 grams of yeast.
I'm no mathematician but I'm pretty sure my figures on this are right.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

SBB's numbers jive with mine, give your instructions another read.

30 liters is almost 8 US gallons or just over 6.5 imperial gallons.

For 7.5 kilo corn my instructions say use 18.75-22.5 liter water with 37.5-60 gram YLAY.

My recipe (heavy on water & yeast) for a 5 US gallon bucket is:
4 kg grain
12 liter 40c water
30 gm angel

I think your recipe will work just takes up a lot of fermenter space and doesn't need that much yeast.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Thanks for verifying that I had my numbers right elbono.
The point I was trying to make is that you don't need to use extra yeast, working at the ratios of water/yeast/ grain suggested by the manufacturer has always worked just fine for me.
Might as well get your moneys worth out of a pack of the stuff by converting as much grain as possible to booze imo.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I've mucked around and found ways to screw up the YLAY but using the directions has always worked for me

I tend to use the high side of the ranges they give, your numbers look like the low side, all inside of the instructions though.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by robe »

Thanks everyone for your input. The yeast amount I stated does seem like a lot. Wino's SS a recipe I have used a lot calls for one quarter cup of daddy yeast, that is about 35 grams. to 6 us gals which seemed like a lot the first time I made it but it turns out great for what it is. So I'll dial back the yeast amount as suggested. Thanks again.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by robe »

Further thoughts. I read on the angel site that 1% yeast to the total grain amount. That s how I came up with the 75 gr to 7.5 kg of grain. I will take the wisdom of experience over the instructions anytime.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yellow label Angel yeast is nothing like any yeast you would use in a wash like Winos......I doubt there is any point in comparing the amounts used.
Follow what the manufactures say and it will work, go your own road at your own risk.
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