help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

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globalmark
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help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

Hi guys

i have a 4litre airstil and happy to ferment wash and run through still , however i just bought a botanical basket and did a run .
instructions are - take your 40% add approx 1litre to still then dilute back to 4litres which i did just fine .
i have then collected my cuts in small jars

50ml foreshots @ approx 41%
2. 100ml heads - 38%
3.100ml - 36%
4. 100ml 32%
5- 100ml 28%
6 - 100ml 23%
7- 100ml 15%
8- 100ml 12%
9 100ml 9%
10 100ml 6%
if continue to run just gets weaker and weaker until water comes out and sill is dry .
or something like this

gin is usually about 37%-40% and i dont see how i can get any quantity of gin with any of this unless i only keep 2-3 makes me 200ml only , and if i mix 1 throught to 7 then would make me approx 24-25% only ,
question what am i doing wrong here how to make my gin with the airstill and get approx 700ml - 1lire of gin , i have my filtered neutral spirit at 40% so can someone give me a simple step by step how to get my gin from this .
thanks Mark
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Yummyrum »

::
globalmark wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:57 am Hi guys

i have a 4litre airstil and happy to ferment wash and run through still , however i just bought a botanical basket and did a run .
instructions are - take your 40% add approx 1litre to still then dilute back to 4litres which i did just fine .
There’s something seriously wrong with your instructions …. Or your interpretation of them . …. Do you have a link to them ???

If you put 1 litre of 40% abv in the boiler and add 3 litres of water to bring the total up to 4 litres , you now only have 10% ABV in the boiler . Pretty much what you started with when you distilled your sugar wash .

So yes ,no surprises you ended up with such a low ABV .

Forgetting what still spirits say ( and they have been known to talk a load of shit ) , it would be normal practice to either soak your botanicals in circa 40% abv for a day or so and put it in the airstill and run it .

Or , put 40% abv in your boiler and botanicals in your basket … and run it .

Makes no sense to have less than 40% abv in the boiler for a Gin run .

This is why you are getting such low ABV output .

Check this out . Its a graph of what happens when you piut a certain abv in your boiler and what comes out the spout

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... _curve.jpg
image.jpeg
You may not understand it at first ….. but you will see it a lot in your distilling adventures …. It will make sense .

So say you start with 10% in the boiler . Find 10% on the bottom axis . Go up to the blue line , across to tje red line , then back down to the bottom axis . 55%

So the first jar will be 55% . As the alcohol in the boiler reduces , so does the output …. This is exactly why you had such low avb Gin .

Start higher .
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by SouthwestAl »

Not that we have to follow the regulations on Gin, but one of the EU standards for a London Dry Gin is that the distillate at the end of the run will be 70% abv or higher.

For your starting abv, most people would say to go no higher than 40%, and for Gin you really want a great neutral, with no flavour. If you are buying your neutral, and you have the spec sheet, you can see if the cuts for the nasties have already been done - if so, you only need to take a very small heads cut - maybe 50ml in your case, to get some of the heavier oils out of the way, and blast some vapour through the system.

I don't know your still, but would expect the abv to a lot higher than you are reporting - a starting abv of the heads in a simple alambiq pot still would typically be around 83% - I generally call tails and stop distilling based on flavour, but when the output is around 65%, and generally have an overall abv of around 76% - many people would go further into the run, especially if you are pulling out more of the herbal/rooty flavours that are less volatile in Ethanol.

Regarding my first point about the 70% standard, there is a provision to go lower and then increase the abv back up to 70% by adding more neutral into the distillate, which is important for flavours that you really want to go into the tails for, that would otherwise bring your overall distillate abv down below 70%.

In short, with a starting maceration abv of 40%, you should be getting over 2 litres return with an abv of around 70%, ready to dilute down to the bottling proof, so something doesn't sound right.

EDIT: having read the other reply on this, if you are diluting 1 litre of 40% with 3 litres of water, that would be a problem, but I would still expect the first cuts to be a far higher abv than you are mentioning.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Saltbush Bill »

From your comments it stands out that you've made a bit of Gin Southwest.
SouthwestAl wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:24 am For your starting abv, most people would say to go no higher than 40%, and for Gin you really want a great neutral, with no flavour.
That seems to be a good place to start from my experience.
SouthwestAl wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:24 am if so, you only need to take a very small heads cut - maybe 50ml in your case, to get some of the heavier oils out of the way,
That first small cut is what gets rid of a lot of the oils that make Gins louche, not all of them but a lot...again , my experience only.
SouthwestAl wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:24 am I generally call tails and stop distilling based on flavour, but when the output is around 65%,
SouthwestAl wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:24 am many people would go further into the run, especially if you are pulling out more of the herbal/rooty flavours that are less volatile in Ethanol.
I'm usually doing smaller quantities , have never bothered with ABV as an Indicator, collecting in smaller jars lets you taste when those earthy /rooty flavors start to come through....cassia being one of the last that I taste.
In my opinion those last jars are also the ones that can contribute bitterness to a gin if you allow them to do so.
My shut down point is the first cloudy jar that leaves the still.....work back 2-3 jars before that and you should be fine to keep whats left, as always that will depend on individual taste.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by TwoSheds »

I routinely make gin in my air still using a modification of Odin's method. Check out Odin's Easy Gin. I macerate at 60% for 24 hours then water down to 40% and run. I've run at 30% but find 40% maybe just a little tastier. Ten percent seems way too low.

In the air still the heating elements are external and fairly weak so you can just chuck all your botanicals in the still, they won't burn in my experience, but from what I've read you will get marginally different flavors from having them in the vapor path instead of the liquid. I haven't played with that myself but others have.

Looks like you fractioned well. I include everything up to when I hit an off vegetal flavor that I don't like. Cooked celery is the closest I can come to describing it. The cut ends up almost exactly where Odin's recipe says to cut.

Good luck! Running gins in the air still is lots of fun!

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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

Hi guys
thanks for the replies - i am reading and learning more daily - just for reference here is the still Spitits instructions copied and paste from the manual

USING THE AIR STILL INFUSION BASKET:
The infusion basket is a great tool for adding flavour and aromas from botanicals and other plant material by infusing it into your distillate. It can be used when distilling water, essential oils and alcohol.
• Attached by removing the Air Still top cover, then simply seat the infusion basket on the underside of the main units lid.
• Set up an Air Still wash as per standard instructions.
FIRST DISTILLATION (STRIPPING RUN)
• Add 4 L (1.1 US Gal) of cleared wash into the Air Still. Then distil to obtain 700 ml (23.6 US fl oz) at 60% ABV neutral alcohol.
DILUTE
• Dilute to 40% ABV and filter the alcohol using a Still Spirits Air Still Carbon Filter System
• After filtering, dilute the alcohol further so you have 4 L (1.1 US Gal) for the second distillation (ABV will be around 12%).
SECOND DISTILLATION (INFUSION RUN)
• To flavour with a gin infusion, add the desired botanicals to the underside of the lid. Ensure no botanicals block the vapour inlet of the lid.
• Secure the botanical basket, ensure you line up the dimple on the basket with the notch on the Air Still
Standard Gin – Botanical Recipe for 4 L (1.1 US Gal) wash.
lid. Rotate to secure.
• Run the Air Still as normal with your pre-distilled, filtered and diluted plain spirit. To remove the basket, rotate the basket until the dimple on the basket and ‘notch’ on the lid are aligned. Pull upwards on the metal ring to remove.
• The vapour will collect the essence of the botanicals as it passes through the basket.


As you can see mentions get out 700ml from first run dilute to 40% which gives you 1litre , then clearly says filter and re-dilute to 4litres should give you 12% (my maths says 10%)

think this is where my confusion happens - there manual is rubbush
globalmark
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

Thanks for all your comments guys

yes i am pretty sure from what i read Still spirits has written badly or something funny going on and starting at 40% seems like the best way - i have actually just got some info from someone that makes gin in same airstill - so gonna try that next , but basically
- uses 4l of 40% neutral puts in botanicals and leaves for several days - (macerates)
- puts 40% + botanicals in bottom airstil and runs 1.5L first 50ml he throws away
- waters down what comes out approx 40% again then just leaves a day or 2 to air
- bottles - waits several weeks to mature and drinks .
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by howie »

globalmark wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:45 pm Thanks for all your comments guys

yes i am pretty sure from what i read Still spirits has written badly or something funny going on and starting at 40% seems like the best way - i have actually just got some info from someone that makes gin in same airstill - so gonna try that next , but basically
- uses 4l of 40% neutral puts in botanicals and leaves for several days - (macerates)
i mascerate overnight, so do others, ain't no taste left when i've had a chew after distillation
- puts 40% + botanicals in bottom airstil and runs 1.5L first 50ml he throws away
up to you, only 10ml discarded for me, i personally wouldn't want to lose 40ml of flavour.
try collecting in 10mls samples at first and decide later

- waters down what comes out approx 40% again then just leaves a day or 2 to air
i dilute down after airing
- bottles - waits several weeks to mature and drinks .
it starts to improve a lot after 2 weeks, try and wait 5 weeks, build up stock :)
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

HI Howie

thanks for the info - not sure what chew after distillation means though .
yes 50ml seems alot i was discarding 20ml in beginning with airstill -
thanks Mark
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by howie »

globalmark wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:58 pm HI Howie

thanks for the info - not sure what chew after distillation means though .
yes 50ml seems alot i was discarding 20ml in beginning with airstill -
thanks Mark
lol, my proof reader was out.
i mean chewing on the botanicals after distillation to see if there was any taste left behind.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by NZChris »

Few of us do a gin run on the 2nd run. My spirit is always run at least twice before the gin run. Three or four stripping runs, then a spirit run, then dilute that for the gin run. See OEG viewtopic.php?t=48594

Advice for pot stills is relevant for Airstills, as that is what they are. An external power controller for the element may help.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Renhoekk »

I’ve run a bunch of gins through an Airstill. Let me say that your protocol is unusual, in that you’re collecting cut jars and that your ABV is weirdly low. You don’t need to do a run like that. Gin is produced from a base neutral spirit, so you don’t need to worry as much about heads, hearts and tails.

Let me give you some rough numbers.

If you charge your Airstill with 1L of 40% ABV (diluted and clean neutral spirit):

1. Collect about 10-12mls as a head cut. This will clean out any residual gunk in the pipes, as well as any heavy botanical oils

2. Collect about 400mls. Start tasting the output before this. The 400mls will be around 78-80%, which when diluted will give you a bottle of gin.

3. Don’t bother collecting tails
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

Hi Renhoekk

sorry just to clarify - so you just start with 1lITRE of 40% neutral in the airstil and dump first 10-12ml and keep the next 400ml - is that correct ?

So if i wanted to run 4litres i would just times this by 4 correct ? ie- 4litres 40% - dump first 40-50ml and keep next 1.6litres and dump the tails - this sounds like the info i got before except macerating the 40% spirit first which worked well ..
thanks Mark
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Smog »

Renhoekk wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:50 pm If you charge your Airstill with 1L of 40% ABV (diluted and clean neutral spirit):

1. Collect about 10-12mls as a head cut. This will clean out any residual gunk in the pipes, as well as any heavy botanical oils

2. Collect about 400mls. Start tasting the output before this. The 400mls will be around 78-80%, which when diluted will give you a bottle of gin.

3. Don’t bother collecting tails
That's also how I do mine in an air still clone. I mostly use my other keg boiler and CM column to do the neutral then do small batches of gin in the air still.
Shit I bought but shouldn't have :
1. Amazon 30L pot distiller
2. T-500 reflux column (good product but expensive)
3. Large 60L stock pot + 2" column

Now using 15.5gal KEG + 5500w electric + fully aircooled reflux condensor and product condenser.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Renhoekk »

globalmark wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:45 am Hi Renhoekk

sorry just to clarify - so you just start with 1lITRE of 40% neutral in the airstil and dump first 10-12ml and keep the next 400ml - is that correct ?

So if i wanted to run 4litres i would just times this by 4 correct ? ie- 4litres 40% - dump first 40-50ml and keep next 1.6litres and dump the tails - this sounds like the info i got before except macerating the 40% spirit first which worked well ..
thanks Mark
Hey Mark,

I left out any instructions about the botanicals to just focus on the distillation process. Whether you dump everything into the pot, add a gin basket, start at a 60% ABV maceration and cut to 40%, soak for 3 hours or 3 weeks.....that's up to you.

And yes to your questions. Just scale up the quantities I gave for 1L if you want to do a bigger batch. The "400mls per litre" is what you can generally take off of a 1L run before the flavour goes south. Be sure to taste throughout the run though, both as a learning exercise about when different flavours come over, and also to detect anything "off" as you get closer to the 400mls mark. Depending on your botanical recipe you may decide to stop the run a bit sooner or a bit later.

.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by howie »

globalmark wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:45 am Hi Renhoekk

sorry just to clarify - so you just start with 1lITRE of 40% neutral in the airstil and dump first 10-12ml and keep the next 400ml - is that correct ?

So if i wanted to run 4litres i would just times this by 4 correct ? ie- 4litres 40% - dump first 40-50ml and keep next 1.6litres and dump the tails - this sounds like the info i got before except macerating the 40% spirit first which worked well ..
thanks Mark
this is an excerpt from odin's OEG..............
"The only thing that does not need to be scaled up, is the first 10 mls cut. It can stay 10 mls up until 10 liters of 43% gin maceration. If you distill over 10 liters in one go, enlarge this first cut to 20 mls."
it's up to you.
why not try it yourself and see what you like, collect the first 50ml in 5 x 10ml.
do a bit of experimenting.
TBH i like a forward gin and after the first 10ml, there is a lot of flavour that i wouldn't want to miss.
although your next google search might be 'louching' and how to avoid/remove :)
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by Saltbush Bill »

That's been my experience to Howie, there is a lot of good flavour in the very early part of a gin run, it's easy to throw some of it away if that first cut is to big.
I'd rather drink cloudy gin than take too big of a cut at the beginning.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by globalmark »

Hi Guys

Thanks so much for your info - i think i am pretty clear on it now .
Howie thanks for that excerp from odins bit and 10ml and thanks all makes so much more sense to me now
mark
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by TwoSheds »

I was just doing a 3 liter batch (3l in the fermenter at 40%) and collected 5ml fores, then another 5, then switched to bulk. I found I even liked the second 5ml cut so ended up including it. It was intense but diluted into the blend very well.

Of course that might vary based on your equipment, methods and ingredients.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by howie »

TwoSheds wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:07 am I was just doing a 3 liter batch (3l in the fermenter at 40%) and collected 5ml fores, then another 5, then switched to bulk. I found I even liked the second 5ml cut so ended up including it. It was intense but diluted into the blend very well.

Of course that might vary based on your equipment, methods and ingredients.
agreed
i've found that the first 10ml can reduce quite a lot, even half it's original size, when airing for a day or 2, especially in summer.
the remaining 5 ml is very intense and sometimes added to the mix.
i sometimes add some of the first 10ml into the main mix as well.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by TwoSheds »

howie wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:06 pm agreed
i've found that the first 10ml can reduce quite a lot, even half it's original size, when airing for a day or 2, especially in summer.
the remaining 5 ml is very intense and sometimes added to the mix.
i sometimes add some of the first 10ml into the main mix as well.
Ah, now I don't air out my gin, only neutrals. Not saying that's wrong, in fact it might help get rid of some of the undesirable flavors I sometimes get, but it seems like I'm finding other ways to do that.
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Re: help on 2nd run making gin in Airstill

Post by NZChris »

Undesirable flavors in gin should be about what you put in it, not about what you can, or can't, remove after the run.
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