Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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NZChris
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by NZChris »

Hebden wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 am I did do one thing differently and that was to add CaCO3 right after lowering pH and before pitching. Whereas previously, I had added my CaCO3 to my nutrients and sugar and mix all together, therefore "maybe" the CaCO3 smothered the base of the fermenter?
Where did you get the idea to put large amounts of powdered CaCO3 into the wash? It sounds like a really bad idea to me and I suspect your guess may be correct, high pH at the bottom may have killed off a lot of the yeast at the start of the ferment.

How soon after the addition did you measure the pH? What was it?
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

NZChris wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:31 pm
Hebden wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 am I did do one thing differently and that was to add CaCO3 right after lowering pH and before pitching. Whereas previously, I had added my CaCO3 to my nutrients and sugar and mix all together, therefore "maybe" the CaCO3 smothered the base of the fermenter?
Where did you get the idea to put large amounts of powdered CaCO3 into the wash? It sounds like a really bad idea to me and I suspect your guess may be correct, high pH at the bottom may have killed off a lot of the yeast at the start of the ferment.

How soon after the addition did you measure the pH? What was it?
NZ, on this fermentation I held back the CaCO3 until just before the yeast pitch.

Usually I had been mixing CaCO3 in nice and early. And usually I added the Citric Acid last in order to control my pH.
But this time, I had read that the citric acid can help invert sugars and so my theory was to invert sugar by adding citric acid at early to help inversion, and then control the fermentation part of the pH with "the usual" CaCO3 that I knew worked.

So to answer your question, I took the 5.4 pH reading at the point of everything in the wash except the CaCO3 and the yeasties.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy »

Hebden wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:28 pm I had read that the citric acid can help invert sugars and so my theory was to invert sugar by adding citric acid at early to help inversion,
The above statement is an erroneous understanding..

Yes citric acid is use to invert sugar, but the sugar solution has to be boiled for at least 20 minute to invert sugar with the use of the acid.. citric acid will not invert sugar in a wash.. all the citric acid does in a wash in create an acidic environment..

Plus there is no need to invert sugar, as it provides no additional value to the fermentation..

There is a need on your part to improve on your reading understanding, as I've observe many time misunderstanding of what was stated.. and this is causing you many issues..

Mars
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by NZChris »

You put a huge dollop of powdered CaCO3 in your washes and don't check, or record, what it does to the pH over the next few hours and days. If you did, you might have your answers already. I'd love to know what happens as it's an experiment that is unlikely happen in my shed.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by bilgriss »

Give it a taste. If it's not sweet and doesn't feel sticky, run it.
If it still has sweetness, stir it up and throw in some cheap yeast, and see if it takes off.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I don't know how some people can make such hard work of making a sugar wash, pick a Tried and True recipe, stick exactly to that recipe and keep it at the right temp, and it should work.
Ive never measured PH in my life, Ive never owned and probably wont ever own a PH meter or strips.
In eleven years and probably hundreds of washes I think about 2 failed to finish as expected, even those still produced something useful.

Stick the lid back on it, if it looks like the photo Stillerboy put up when you look again in a week then its done..........if it doesnt look like that then you do have a problem.
bilgriss wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:18 pm Give it a taste. If it's not sweet and doesn't feel sticky, run it.
That would be to simple it seems.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:28 pm Stick the lid back on it, if it looks like the photo Stillerboy put up when you look again in a week then its done..........if it doesnt look like that then you do have a problem.
But he does have a problem with that wash as pictured.. that is the first sign or indication that the wash environment is not healthy, for whatever reason.. the stir or waiting longer will only prolong the inevitable..

In all the yrs of doing sugar washes, I've two that had behavior similar to what I view is occurring.. just clear it as best one can and run it, as it doesn't stop progressing..

Mars
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Stonecutter »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:28 pm I don't know how some people can make such hard work of making a sugar wash, pick a Tried and True recipe, stick exactly to that recipe and keep it at the right temp, and it should work.
I agree Saltbush Bill. I’m a complete novice. I found a tried-and-true recipe that I thought would work with what I had laying around the house I followed it to the letter and surprise surprise it was a success. I continue to use that same recipe tweaking it here in there and that’s purely experimental cuz I’m new to the game.
Hebden wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 am
With only minor adjustments to my wash from a previous working wash
I doubt rehydrating the yeast caused you any problems.

Was this previous working wash a T&T recipe by chance?
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by shadylane »

Hebden wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 am Can anyone help here, sugar wash started slow and then seems to have stopped at SG 1.012 after 9 days at 85-86f
How are you measuring SG with a hydrometer or refractometer?
What yeast is being used?
On a side note, your recipe is short on nutrients.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

I am still very much a novice and perhaps I shouldn't be experimenting with so little knowledge, and unfortunately I do need to ask for and appreciate the help your all kindly offering up now I have a stuck sugar wash.
I can produce successful sugar washes now and I could probably conduct many without fail, but what this wash bill was was an experiment, to try to lower ingredients volumes requirement, I obviously failed the wash and yes I double failed by not following a process properly which I shall try and learn from. But I do feel it is important to try and experiment and to push boundaries in order to find the tolerances, effects and now solutions. It is all a good learning curve.

I am indeed a terrible reader and soaker up of information, I regularly read pages several times, so that's not an unfair point to say I need to improve as there will no doubt be many examples of my shortfall. But there are also many examples of contradictions within what I read ie accomplished distillers like NZChris and Ben disputing pitch rates on the previous page and also, the old school instruction about not getting air into a wash too.
My logic on the citric acid helping inversion was that if citric acid is used to invert in a correct manner, then it may help, even to a small degree if used early in the dissolving of sugar when temps are higher, I never expected it to fully invert but to help.
I would never waste time properly inverting sugar as I have read elsewhere on this forum that it is of little improvement, if any. But with so little effort there was nothing to lose if the wash came out better, unfortunately it didn't.

The idea that sugar should be inverted was also found on this forum and so to newbies, we really can be confused about exactly which bits we should ignore. I think I got it right that modern consensus is that there is no point inverting.

Anyhow, this morning after yesterdays gentle stir everything looked the same, dormant, I added 2 tsp of DAP and 50g yeast (probably not enough) then given it an aerate. I'll try and figure out the next move from the advice you guys have given depending on what I see in the wash going forward and will update soon.
Last edited by Hebden on Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Do remember that many parts of this hobby are not an exact science, a large part of it is more of a craft/ art.
There is often more than one way to skin the cat and different people prefer to do things different ways.
One or the other of those ways isn't always right or wrong.....just different.
On the other hand there are some basic rules to this hobby that don't change and simply wont work if you try to do them another way.
Inverting sugar is a good example of one thing that is a personal choice, some prefer to do it , others don't bother......both groups get results that they are happy with.
Having said that , there is a right way and a wrong way of inverting sugar, do it the wrong way and its just a waste of time and effort.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Yummyrum »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:46 am Do remember that many parts of this hobby are not an exact science, a large part of it is more of a craft/ art.
There is often more than one way to skin the cat and different people prefer to do things different ways.
One or the other of those ways isn't always right or wrong.....just different.
On the other hand there are some basic rules to this hobby that don't change and simply wont work if you try to do them another way.
Inverting sugar is a good example of one thing that is a personal choice, some prefer to do it , others don't bother......both groups get results that they are happy with.
Having said that , there is a right way and a wrong way of inverting sugar, do it the wrong way and its just a waste of time and effort.

I agree with you Salty .

I am in the camp that prefers to invert and I personally believe I get less sugar bite by doing so .To make a wash you need to dissolve sugar and add boiling water to get the yeast temp up . Just so happens that you need about the right amount of boiling water as you need to invert sugar and it dissolves it at same time .

Now what Salty was saying about correctly inverting and what stillerboy mentioned about needing to invert sugar for about 20-30min just happens to be true according to some tests I did at smoko .

Posted it on CCSC here https://www.coppercustomstillcomponents ... gar#p99522

But here are some teaser pics .
1FFD46D6-4093-4F2E-A59E-455BC870DBDC.jpeg
67CDCBE0-CE0E-424D-9FFA-B275F4550938.jpeg
9E69D3F8-7BED-4F0D-94D4-857A3833C68E.jpeg
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by NZChris »

Hebden wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:13 am The idea that sugar should be inverted was also found on this forum and so to newbies, we really can be confused about exactly which bits we should ignore. I think I got it right that modern consensus is that there is no point inverting.
The forum is great for getting ideas, but anyone can post their thoughts and those posts remain regardless of how useful, or not, they are.

When I read conflicting information, I research outside the forum to find the science behind the logic. E.g., the reasons for aerating a wash and when to aerate, are well known. If you have found conflicting ideas on the forum, they won't both be correct and it's up to you to do the research to understand enough about aeration to be able to recognize which idea is correct and will give you the best chance of a happy outcome.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Bradster68 »

+1 to Chris comments. This is agreat forum for learning. BUT... the web is full of useful info that is worth looking into. Even if your not confused and really wanna learn this hobby you owe it to yourself to gather as much info as you can.
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

NZChris wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:53 pm When I read conflicting information, I research outside the forum to find the science behind the logic. E.g., the reasons for aerating a wash and when to aerate, are well known. If you have found conflicting ideas on the forum, they won't both be correct and it's up to you to do the research to understand enough about aeration to be able to recognize which idea is correct and will give you the best chance of a happy outcome.
Yes I agree NZ, and so is Mars and the forum is a wonderful tool. Fact is I do need to improve my reading because I am not good at it, but at my age it is unlikely to ever improve much.

The wash has not improved any today. I will be chucking it down the drain as I don't really want to run anything that has had whatever issues caused it to fail, not sure what exactly the cause was but it has sugar left in it, it is very acidic and I don't trust it. I will revert to the last working recipe or close to it as I still want to tweak things a little.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Yummyrum »

Don’t chuck it down the drain .
Strip it and run it .

Seriously , what a waste .

There is very good alcohol in there . You have a top notch still that can get it out . Why the hell dump it . Makes no sense at all . :shock:

So you didn’t get a text book fermentation . Welcome to the club hebdon … it happens …. So maybe if it had worked out perfect , you may have ended yo with 10-12 litres of Neutral ….. but due to shit happening , you may only end uo with 7-10 litres …. Sounds great in my book and no way I’d be dumping it . :ewink:
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:58 am Don’t chuck it down the drain .
Strip it and run it .
+1 on running it..

Get over a fail attempt at experimenting.. lessen learn (hopefully).. many more lesson to come.. that what life's about..

Next time an experimenting thought crosses your mind, remember to just change one item, not multipal..

Mars
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Ben »

Run it... even if it turns out bad (Which it won't) it's a learning opportunity. The distillation process will destroy anything that is potentially harmful in the wash.

Don't worry about the acidity, the still can take it; remember your vinegar run? The acids almost all have a high enough boiling point to come over only in fractions.

Infections are fine! Sometimes things happen: viewtopic.php?t=63689
:)
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

Thanks all, but I dumped it early this morning before reading your posts.

My lack of knowledge meant I didn't know it would be safe to run and I didn't want to run anything that may be dangerous and as it had failed without me knowing why, I just thought it safest.

Plus during yet more research last night, I was reading up on yeasts again and came accross an explanation of how different strains and the temp of their ferment and varying acidity pH's would affect flavour profiles of a drink and so my low pH made me think anything I ran might taste really dry after pushing a really low pH.

And so whilst it is time wasted, it is a lesson learnt. I am reverting to my last successful run but for 2 changes (I hope this will be OK for following process Mars).

First change is a lower yeast pitch volume to 420g bang in the middle of Bens guidelines and 80g less than my last successful wash.

Second changes is to adhere NZ's advice on Oyster Shells (not powder) so that I can weigh before and after in order to calculate the weight used.
I hope that then I can use that weight of my powdered CaCO3 reserves going forward as advised by NZ

Will these two changes be OK to then be classed as following a process as CaCO3 is just a different form used?

I honestly read and read last time I looked into yeast health and pitch rates etc before this failed wash and in the end followed the Llalvin guidelines thinking that if the yeasts can go to 18% then I must be still overpitching by going to their top end pitch rates with what I had calculated was going to be a theoretical 11%abv available to my wash. Now I feel I really don't understand how to calculate pitch rates on my own, I'll manage with my sugar washes ok but if I ever go for different fermentation styles, I am doomed!
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by StillerBoy »

Hebden wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:16 am My lack of knowledge meant I didn't know it would be safe to run and I didn't want to run anything that may be dangerous and as it had failed without me knowing why, I just thought it safest.
Haste causes one to make many mistakes, with no guideline for information of understanding..

Without a process for doing something is recipe for failure..

Without understand and knowledge of a task before the start is a guarantee of failure..

We've provided valuable info/guidance, and you care to recital a defence to not learn ..

What you have not understood is what happened and why, yet you still want to experiment with changing the recipe, which will be and give a totally different behavior..

Motor on.. best of luck on your next experiment..

Mars
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

Sorry to have pissed you off Mars, I really am, I know you don't have to be spending time on my failures and that you don't want to be repeating yourself.
But I didn't want to be risking my health and I didn't know that it would be safe. I had started on chucking it out as soon as I'd checked in here early this morning. Yourself, Yummy and Ben all posted after I was on with it.

Prior to that, in yesterdays posts, Bilgriss said run it with proviso it wasn't sweet or feel sticky and SBB agreed, for some reason I knew there must be sugar left as I not not reached the alcohol level that it should have reached, therefore it must have had sugar in it and I thought that Bilgriss must have mean't don't run it if there was sugar remaining.

And you had said run it because it isn't going to get any better or words to that efefct. Considering a strip and run would take best part of 2 days to potentially end up with shite tasting poison, I honestly thought it which was hardly worth the effort.

I am not unwilling to learn or reciting reasons for not doing so. I again spent 3 more hours on homework after leaving here last night, I stumbled upon Odins university and but for the high cost I would have signed up for it.

In my last post, I was not diverting from "process" (or intentionally avoiding good advice), I was asking if it would be OK to use Shells instead of Powdered CaCO3 and to remain within "process". If I was told not to, I would not have done so.

Again, sorry for pissing you off and if you know of an up to date book, please point me to it.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by NZChris »

Hebden wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:16 am Second changes is to adhere NZ's advice on Oyster Shells (not powder) so that I can weigh before and after in order to calculate the weight used.
I hope that then I can use that weight of my powdered CaCO3 reserves going forward as advised by NZ
Because of the huge ratio of surface area to volume, powdered behaves differently to whole shell, blocks of marble, etc., dissolving much faster, which is why I don't use it. I use shells to buffer the pH through the whole ferment, not as an ingredient at the start, or to adjust pH.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Dougmatt »

Hebden wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:16 am Thanks all, but I dumped it early this morning before reading your posts.

My lack of knowledge meant I didn't know it would be safe to run and I didn't want to run anything that may be dangerous and as it had failed without me knowing why, I just thought it safest.

Plus during yet more research last night, I was reading up on yeasts again and came accross an explanation of how different strains and the temp of their ferment and varying acidity pH's would affect flavour profiles of a drink and so my low pH made me think anything I ran might taste really dry after pushing a really low pH.

And so whilst it is time wasted, it is a lesson learnt. I am reverting to my last successful run but for 2 changes (I hope this will be OK for following process Mars).

First change is a lower yeast pitch volume to 420g bang in the middle of Bens guidelines and 80g less than my last successful wash.

Second changes is to adhere NZ's advice on Oyster Shells (not powder) so that I can weigh before and after in order to calculate the weight used.
I hope that then I can use that weight of my powdered CaCO3 reserves going forward as advised by NZ

Will these two changes be OK to then be classed as following a process as CaCO3 is just a different form used?

I honestly read and read last time I looked into yeast health and pitch rates etc before this failed wash and in the end followed the Llalvin guidelines thinking that if the yeasts can go to 18% then I must be still overpitching by going to their top end pitch rates with what I had calculated was going to be a theoretical 11%abv available to my wash. Now I feel I really don't understand how to calculate pitch rates on my own, I'll manage with my sugar washes ok but if I ever go for different fermentation styles, I am doomed!

As always, you will find contradictory advice on these board. I will just say that in my experience of 100’s of ferments (wine, beer, sugar, AG) I’ve only measured yeast a few times (early on) and then probably because I wasn’t buying in bulk yet. I use pretty basic strains such as bread (rum) Dady (mostly things), some of the more interesting wine yeasts (when making wine for consumption), and 1118 (when I just want to plow through something) No stuck ferments that I couldn’t figure out (temp too low, ph too low, etc). I’m a believer in the evidence that most (non-specialty) Yeast will reproduce as required to fill its environment…. I know Ben believes otherwise, but I will trust my personal experience until it fails me. That said, the yeast is cheap compared to everything else so I tend to just pitch enough to cover the surface and be done with it.

You do you…..
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

NZChris wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:03 am Because of the huge ratio of surface area to volume, powdered behaves differently to whole shell, blocks of marble, etc., dissolving much faster, which is why I don't use it. I use shells to buffer the pH through the whole ferment, not as an ingredient at the start, or to adjust pH.
I see, hence it is a 2nd change in process thanks NZ.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by shadylane »

Here's my thoughts on stuck sugar washes.

First, don't let it happen, because once it does, it's difficult to restart...
It's often better to run what you have, than to add extra ingredients trying to restart it.

Most sugar washes are short on what yeast needs for reproduction. Each generation gets weaker.
I always pitch more yeast. So they can get right to work and get the job done in fewer generations.

@ Hebden
Put the lid back on and wait.
If you're going to experiment, use several buckets for fermenters.
Not a f#cking barrel :lol:

Give this recipe a try.
viewtopic.php?t=70585
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Hebden »

shadylane wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:17 pm If you're going to experiment, use several buckets for fermenters.
Not a f#cking barrel :lol:

Give this recipe a try.
viewtopic.php?t=70585
Thanks Shady, I wondered when I was going to get pulled up on the size of my first ever bucket :oops:

ps Yours was the 1st ever wash I made and it ran great. I just enjoy tinkering.
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by squigglefunk »

here's my thought on stuck sugar washes: yuck

here's my thought on regular sugar washes: also yuck

:wink:

you dun the right thing dumping that and get you some grains in those ferments ! :wink: :wink:
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by DAD300 »

I believe allowing Ph to crash down and then using something harsh to blow it back up is horrible for the yeast!

A small amount of marble rocks suspended in the ferment will keep the Ph between 4.5 and 4.9.

That bottle was half full at the start of a 150gal ferment.
DSC01215.JPG
Rocks.jpg
Rocks.jpg (12.32 KiB) Viewed 936 times
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by shadylane »

Many of the Big distillery's brag about the limestone water they use for mashing and fermenting.
I don't have access to limestone water. My tap water is almost mineral free.
That's why crushed oyster shell/coral works here.

It's easy to measure what's needed.
A little bit is a necessity, but it takes many times more to be too much. :ewink:
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Re: Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

Post by Garouda »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:47 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:28 pm Stick the lid back on it, if it looks like the photo Stillerboy put up when you look again in a week then its done..........if it doesnt look like that then you do have a problem.
But he does have a problem with that wash as pictured.. that is the first sign or indication that the wash environment is not healthy, for whatever reason.. the stir or waiting longer will only prolong the inevitable..

In all the yrs of doing sugar washes, I've two that had behavior similar to what I view is occurring.. just clear it as best one can and run it, as it doesn't stop progressing..

Mars
It is not easy to make a diagnosis from a distance. From the photo, I would like to say that it is a contamination by acetobacter... A healthy wash smells like a white wine, if there is a smell of vinegar, there is contamination. I had the same problem with a batch of Shady's Sugar Shine where I was too greedy. In general, in my Ø50 cm x 50 cm H fermenter, I limit myself to 70 litres, which leaves me a height of 15 cm to maintain a protective layer of CO2. I had gone up to 85 litres, it was not a problem for two batches, but the third was contaminated. The remedy, neutralize acetic acid with baking soda, acetic acid above a certain concentration kills yeast. It must therefore be neutralized, and the wash seeded with new yeasts. It would be better to use calcium carbonate, (200g/HL) but I didn't have any. In case of contamination of the stripping run, dilute the alcohol to 30% ABV and neutralize it with caustic soda, then distil it again. I had started to follow my fermentations with a refractometer, but I realized that the measurements are distorted by the bran in the recipe. TFFV remains my favourite recipe for producing neutral.
"In wine there is Wisdom, in beer there is Freedom, in water there are bacteria."
Benjamin Franklin
"In moonshine there is Rebeldom"
Garouda
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