Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Adjust the deflegmator.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by greggn »

JHeron wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:58 pm
What am I doing wrong here I wonder...

You're running a CM which is wonky when it comes to cooling water temp and flow rates. What concerns me are the downward hanging coolant lines off your dephleg. As your run progresses those hoses can warm up, soften, and bend to where they're nearly closed. Needless to say, that's going to negatively affect your product.

I'd recommend using reinforced hoses at those connection points.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by JHeron »

Yes the exit hose did collapse a bit but not enough to cut off the flow.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by quadra »

A pretty good example of why some people like to valve at the Far end of the cooling loop. That vertical drain line on the left seems to be developing enough suction head to collapse the flexible discharge line on the dephlegmator... you could also loop it back up to balance out the water column on the discharge line, or tee in an air admittance vent ?
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Yummyrum »

quadra wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:43 pm A pretty good example of why some people like to valve at the Far end of the cooling loop. That vertical drain line on the left seems to be developing enough suction head to collapse the flexible discharge line on the dephlegmator... you could also loop it back up to balance out the water column on the discharge line, or tee in an air admittance vent ?
Yup , it sure does look that way Quadra.
I’m a “valve at the far end “ kinda person BTW . Just make s more sense to me .

Can't say I’ve ever seen anything regarding it , but I wonder about Venturi effect in those tee joiners .
Can fast flow though the PC cause a suction in the deflag return in those Tees ???

There just seems to be a real flattening of the hose that shouldn’t be that obvious .

Would changing the connections to the tee change any Venturi effect ??
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by GrumbleStill »

I reckon Quadra and Yummy are on the right track. That collapsed discharge line indicates suction in the dephlag, which won’t help its heat transfer. I’d suggest moving the control valve to the outlet, and upgrading from a ball valve to a needle valve if funds permit. That will give you better control of what’s happening in there. A bit of a reorganisation in the discharge line to break the vacuum wouldn’t hurt either.

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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by JHeron »

Nah, the line sagged when I was running it as a pot still doing stripping runs with it not in use. The water in the dephleg turned to steam and the line sagged due to gravity and heat, there is no sign of suction, you would see water drawing up from the drain if it was.
As someone who has designed and made venturi's for producing biodiesel I can tell you a strait tee will not function as a venturi.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by JHeron »

I like the idea of a needle valve on the output, I will keep my eyes open for a decent one.
When you folks are rufluxing do you run the still about the same temp as a pot still run or do you drive it hotter?
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by howie »

i eventually fitted 90° S/S bends to all my condenser outlets, even the reinforced hoses were bending over through heat and strain.

refluxing power (as we don't control temps) for me is about getting a good rolling boil going, but the amount of power can differ, depending on the size of the charge in the boiler.
the amount of power will reflect in the output.
they reckon 1l-1.2l per hour output on a 2".
i get 95-96% on mine easily, it's just slow.
stacking/fractioning/equalizing (whatever you want to call it) the column under full reflux can take 30-40 minutes on my 2", during this time your top thermometer should stay at room temp.
after it's stacked, personally i turn the water to the RC down in small increments and wait a couple of minutes.
so keep reducing the water and waiting, reducing/waiting, then you'll see the top thermometer start to change as the top volatile vapours push past the RC.
wait and see what your output is like, slowly adjust water or power accordingly.
is the column insulted yet?
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Yummyrum »

JHeron wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:51 am I like the idea of a needle valve on the output, I will keep my eyes open for a decent one.
When you folks are rufluxing do you run the still about the same temp as a pot still run or do you drive it hotter?
I don’t use or watch one now days … but iff’n I did ,
The whole thing when you reflux is that the purity at the top will be much higher and closer to the boiling point of ethanol so for the most part , ( during the hearts ) iff’n you wanted pure tasteless ethanol , you would see a reading pretty close to 78.3°C .

But should you want some sort of flavour to come across , then you would be running it harder ( IE less coolant flow through the deflag … or more power to the boiler …. The two balance each other ) and so the temp would be a lot higher and closer to what you might expect to see on a pot still .

But you would end up with a shitty tasting Vodka .
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by JHeron »

Thank you gentlemen. I am beginning to catch on.
What is the indication of when it is stacked and balanced to start cutting the water to the dephleg?
I only have a thermometer on the still head but I also have an infrared temperature gun I could use on the stack.
I still need to get it insulated too...
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by greggn »

JHeron wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:36 pm
What is the indication of when it is stacked and balanced to start cutting the water to the dephleg?

You need to determine the maximum input power that your reflux condenser can condense. Knowing that, you can run just below that value, for as long as you want, to equalize your column.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by howie »

JHeron wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:36 pm Thank you gentlemen. I am beginning to catch on.
What is the indication of when it is stacked and balanced to start cutting the water to the dephleg?
I only have a thermometer on the still head but I also have an infrared temperature gun I could use on the stack.
I still need to get it insulated too...
when you get insulation, you can put a cheap digital thermometer probe in between the insulation and column, just below the RC.
this point (on my still) usually reads a constant temp (usually about 74C) after going into full reflux.
after about 30-40 minutes, i get a small 2C temp drop, which i think indicates that the volatiles with the lower boiling point, are stacked at the top of the column, which i then bleed off.
i have noticed this temp change several times, including about 3 hrs ago, during today's FFV reflux run.
NB before the anti-thermometer brigade comment, i am not looking for a specific temp, just observing a small temp change from a constant reading.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Saltbush Bill »

howie wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:31 pm NB before the anti-thermometer brigade comment, i am not looking for a specific temp, just observing a small temp change from a constant reading.
I don't think that many people here who have run VM or boka type refluxs will argue that point , its when people start trying to run pot stills and trying to make cuts by temp that things go wrong and people start wanting to smash thermometers with hammers.
There is a big difference between religiously trying to chase temps or believing that you can control the temp of the boiler and looking for a tiny temp change to use as an indicator that something has or is about to change.
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by JHeron »

howie wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:31 pm
when you get insulation, you can put a cheap digital thermometer probe in between the insulation and column, just below the RC.
[/quote]

Good stuff, thanks!
I am sure you are referring to the dephleg when you say 'RC' but what does RC stand for?
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Yummyrum »

JHeron wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:44 am I am sure you are referring to the dephleg when you say 'RC' but what does RC stand for?
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RC is abreviation for Reflux Condenser
Unfortunately many incorrectly call a Deflegmator a Reflux Condenser which causes confusion.

A Deflegmator is a Partial Condenser . Although it can be operated at full reflux and could be considered an RC , for the most part it is operated in partial mode with a percentage passing through it .
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Re: Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

Post by Bushman »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:06 pm A Deflegmator is a Partial Condenser . Although it can be operated at full reflux and could be considered an RC , for the most part it is operated in partial mode with a percentage passing through it .
This is the definition in Merriam-Webster-Webster dictionary:
(ˈ)dēˈflegˌmātə(r) plural -s. : an apparatus used in fractional distillation as a partial condenser to cool the mixed vapors and thus condense the higher-boiling portions.
Mine operates at full reflux until I am ready to collect thus I have never liked the definition. But I agree with you that it has been used to represent an RC which can come in different designs.
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