Replacement for Vinegar Run in a Aluminum Pot Still !!

[mah41]

I ordered a Aluminum still pot(The only thing i could get my hands on) and as i know for the first time you have to clean it and one of the steps of the cleaning is boiling an acidic liquid, like vinegar. But there's a problem, acetic acid is corrosive to aluminum, and even more when heated.
Anybody has any idea what can i do?
Isn't running hot vinegar through the pipes enough for cleaning the copper pipes?
It's not a long or girthy pipe.
Or maybe putting a smaller stainless steel pot inside the aluminum pot? but that still would put vinegar vapor in contact with the aluminum???

I know aluminum isn't a good option for long run, but for now that's the only option and i really need your help, Any advice/suggestions?

Thank you.

[still_stirrin]

Aluminum is not considered as safe for distillation of alcohol for the same reason that it is not recommended for the vinegar cleaning run. The acids and solvents in the wash will cause corrosion and toxic by-products in the distillate.

Stainless steel and copper are the 2 recommended boiler and stillhead materials.

So, you’re best advised to eliminate your new aluminum stock pot and source one made from appropriate materials.
ss

[mah41]

Aluminum is not considered as safe for distillation of alcohol for the same reason that it is not recommended for the vinegar cleaning run. The acids and solvents in the wash will cause corrosion and toxic by-products in the distillate.

Stainless steel and copper are the 2 recommended boiler and stillhead materials.

So, you’re best advised to eliminate your new aluminum stock pot and source one made from appropriate materials.
ss

I wish i could get a better material, the problem isn't that i can't afford the goodies, the problem is that we don't have the good equipment in iran, any alcoholic drink is illegal, distillation of alcohol is illegal, making wine is illegal, all stills are only made for making essential oils/distilled herb water. they aren't also cheap, the economic state is pretty poop smelly, the normal average cheap stills that you use in your houses is called industrial still in here, they are hard to find and expensive.

The best option that i have access to is aluminum, There are mostly "Zinc still pots" and "pressure cooker still pots"(which the pressure cookers are also either aluminum or thick zinc) that are made by home distillers, so other options are worse, a lot of lead and solders on a lot of other options.

And i don't think safety of aluminum or the pot really matters in our case when most of the so called local distillers in here don't even know what cuts are and straight up mix it all and store it in plastic bottles.

This aluminum pot that i'm ordering is actually a Milk can/container that is turned to a still, i small copper pipe is placed at the top, and this gets scarier, you have to connect a silicone pipe to the small/short copper pipe that came out of the top and connect the other end of the silicone to the copper condenser.


All this useless information is just to say this aluminum still really is The Best option i can have, a normal steel food pot is the price of alomst 4 of these aluminum pot stills and let me tell you, these aluminum stills aren't cheap.

As much as i know the by products of the aluminum ethanol reaction can't be distilled with the temprature that the still is running in, a google search can give the answer about this.
Do you know that, is putting the copper in one or multiple hot vinegar bath enough to clean the pipe so at least the copper doesn't bring additional harm?

Thank you for your reply and sorry for the heartache that the silicone pipes and aluminum pots brought to you.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Aluminum is not considered as safe for distillation of alcohol for the same reason that it is not recommended for the vinegar cleaning run. The acids and solvents in the wash will cause corrosion and toxic by-products in the distillate.

Stainless steel and copper are the 2 recommended boiler and stillhead materials.

So, you’re best advised to eliminate your new aluminum stock pot and source one made from appropriate materials.
ss

I wish i could get a better material, the problem isn't that i can't afford the goodies, the problem is that we don't have the good equipment in iran, any alcoholic drink is illegal, distillation of alcohol is illegal, making wine is illegal, all stills are only made for making essential oils/distilled herb water. they aren't also cheap, the economic state is pretty poop smelly, the normal average cheap stills that you use in your houses is called industrial still in here, they are hard to find and expensive.

The best option that i have access to is aluminum, There are mostly "Zinc still pots" and "pressure cooker still pots"(which the pressure cookers are also either aluminum or thick zinc) that are made by home distillers, so other options are worse, a lot of lead and solders on a lot of other options.

And i don't think safety of aluminum or the pot really matters in our case when most of the so called local distillers in here don't even know what cuts are and straight up mix it all and store it in plastic bottles.

This aluminum pot that i'm ordering is actually a Milk can/container that is turned to a still, i small copper pipe is placed at the top, and this gets scarier, you have to connect a silicone pipe to the small/short copper pipe that came out of the top and connect the other end of the silicone to the copper condenser.


All this useless information is just to say this aluminum still really is The Best option i can have, a normal steel food pot is the price of alomst 4 of these aluminum pot stills and let me tell you, these aluminum stills aren't cheap.

As much as i know the by products of the aluminum ethanol reaction can't be distilled with the temprature that the still is running in, a google search can give the answer about this.
Do you know that, is putting the copper in one or multiple hot vinegar bath enough to clean the pipe so at least the copper doesn't bring additional harm?

Thank you for your reply and sorry for the heartache that the silicone pipes and aluminum pots brought to you.

Who makes an aluminum pot still?
Do you have a link?
I have never seen such a thing. I'm inclined to think you're attempting to build your own still out of cheap/incorrect materials. If that is so, I dont expect you'll get much help and support on this forum.

I have several aluminum pits I use for frying turkeys and boiling seafood. I ince stored some spent corn mash in one and accidently forgot about it for a couple weeks.
By the time I remembered and cleaned it out, the damage was done. After I cleaned it and filled it with water, it leaked like a garden watering kettle. The acidic corn had dissolved hundreds of tiny almost invisible pin holes right through the side of the cheap, thin aluminum kettle.

That should tell you everything you need to know about aluminum.

[mah41]

Who makes an aluminum pot still?
Do you have a link?
I have never seen such a thing. I'm inclined to think you're attempting to build your own still out of cheap/incorrect materials. If that is so, I dont expect you'll get much help and support on this forum.

I'm gonna try and get my hands on a smaller stainless steel normal pot to turn it to a still, i hope it goes well.

Actually these are made with "standards" in major production workshops, it's a normal design here:


pretty disgusting, i know.

I have several aluminum pits I use for frying turkeys and boiling seafood. I ince stored some spent corn mash in one and accidently forgot about it for a couple weeks.
By the time I remembered and cleaned it out, the damage was done. After I cleaned it and filled it with water, it leaked like a garden watering kettle. The acidic corn had dissolved hundreds of tiny almost invisible pin holes right through the side of the cheap, thin aluminum kettle.

That should tell you everything you need to know about aluminum.

Intresting... Leaving the mash inside any metal to ferment wouldn't be ideal i believe, i don't know about stainless steel, some say it's safe some say it's not, i don't think only distilling a close to neutral ph mash would have a significant damage to the aluminum pot(Maybe adding some safe acidity reducers in case of a ph too low?), but yeah i know it's a pretty bad material for this use.

[Sporacle]

Leaving the mash inside any metal to ferment wouldn't be ideal i believe, i don't know about stainless steel, some say it's safe some say it's not, i don't think only distilling a close to neutral ph mash would have a significant damage to the aluminum pot(Maybe adding some safe acidity reducers in case of a ph too low?), but yeah i know it's a pretty bad material for this use.

Generally Stainless is seen as safe, used by all the big commercial distillers, not to sure who is saying stainless is not safe in our situation.
Basically dont use aluminium

[mah41]

Generally Stainless is seen as safe, used by all the big commercial distillers, not to sure who is saying stainless is not safe in our situation.
Basically dont use aluminium

There are always people who disagree with the majority. doesn't matter right or wrong, they just disagree.
As i said, i don't know about stainless steel but Basically yes if i could, i would probably use stainless steel and throw out this trash aluminum.

[Steve Broady]

Since it seems that the primary concern is acid corroding the aluminum, I would think that at a bare minimum, add some form of base to your wash prior to distillation. Baking soda, calcium carbonate, marble, something. Get the wash as close to pH 7.0 as is practical. Remember that ALL ferments will be acidic, and plan accordingly.

I’m not sure that’s enough to satisfy the most safety conscious folks, but if that’s truly the best you can do, and it’s that or nothing, then you might have to just make the best of it. Remember that you (and possibly your friends and family) will be drinking it, so make sure it’s safe enough for your own personal standards. My visit to Morocco gave me a different perspective on safety in general, and showed that what we in the west take for granted is not necessarily seen the same way in other parts of the world. Hopefully you can find enough help here to get you as far as you are able and willing to go.

Just a thought: can you get copper sheet? I know I saw a lot of folks working copper and brass in the markets all over Morocco. You could probably make a better still out of that than out of aluminum, though you’d want to be careful about the lead content in brass.

[Wildcats]

This need to be moved to the What not to do thread.

[mah41]

Since it seems that the primary concern is acid corroding the aluminum, I would think that at a bare minimum, add some form of base to your wash prior to distillation. Baking soda, calcium carbonate, marble, something. Get the wash as close to pH 7.0 as is practical. Remember that ALL ferments will be acidic, and plan accordingly.

I’m not sure that’s enough to satisfy the most safety conscious folks, but if that’s truly the best you can do, and it’s that or nothing, then you might have to just make the best of it. Remember that you (and possibly your friends and family) will be drinking it, so make sure it’s safe enough for your own personal standards. My visit to Morocco gave me a different perspective on safety in general, and showed that what we in the west take for granted is not necessarily seen the same way in other parts of the world. Hopefully you can find enough help here to get you as far as you are able and willing to go.

Just a thought: can you get copper sheet? I know I saw a lot of folks working copper and brass in the markets all over Morocco. You could probably make a better still out of that than out of aluminum, though you’d want to be careful about the lead content in brass.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the primary concern is acid corroding the aluminum, but not the mash, i know, i'll probably bring the ph of the mash to a neutral level, but really the only thing that i'm really concerned that would make the alcohol dangerous is the copper pipes not being clean, i'm just asking everybody if "it is enough to put the copper parts/pipes inside a hot vinegar bath and rinse it instead of boiling vinegar in the still(which in my case will probably corrode the pot)? will the vinegar bath clean inside the copper enough?"

I think either i can't properly tell what my problem is or everybody just want to tell me to get something that i can't and i'm wrong and do this and that, Thank you, but about cleaning the copper pipes, is liquid vinegar enough for cleaning or is running vaporized vinegar through the pipes by putting it in the still a must do and there's no other way thing?

[Sporacle]

I think either i can't properly tell what my problem is or everybody just want to tell me to get something that i can't and i'm wrong and do this and that, Thank you, but about cleaning the copper pipes, is liquid vinegar enough for cleaning or is running vaporized vinegar through the pipes by putting it in the still a must do and there's no other way thing?

There are a number of things that need to be done and are considered non negotiable with new stills.
They are a vinegar run and a sacrificial run, there is plenty of info here on how they should be done.

People are just trying to get you working from a safe base as a starting point, hence people trying to stop you from using aluminium.

Good luck

[Yummyrum]

This need to be moved to the What not to do thread.

I agree and have moved it .

mah41

The purpose of the vinegar is not clean the copper , but rather to help rid any residual flux from the construction .

If you can physically clean the inside of the copper with a scrubber on a stick etc , that would probably be more effective than the Vinegar anyway .

If it was soldered with a water based flux , then its really easy to clean . If it was soldered with petroleum based flux paste then it will require a much more aggressive clean .

It may have even been brazed with an Oxy torch and no flux was even used .

The whole Vinegar steam up is to cover all bases because you may not be able to physically scrub it of have any idea what construction method was used .

In any case , as you seem likely to use this Aluminium pot despite the advice not to , I really don’t think that one Vinegar run will be a deal breaker .

Do it to get the job done and please try and get a Stainless steel pot as soon as you can .

And immediately after you do a vinegar run , rinse the copper in lots of water otherwise Copper Acetate crystals will start to form on the copper .

[mah41]

This need to be moved to the What not to do thread.

I agree and have moved it .

mah41

The purpose of the vinegar is not clean the copper , but rather to help rid any residual flux from the construction .

If you can physically clean the inside of the copper with a scrubber on a stick etc , that would probably be more effective than the Vinegar anyway .

If it was soldered with a water based flux , then its really easy to clean . If it was soldered with petroleum based flux paste then it will require a much more aggressive clean .

It may have even been brazed with an Oxy torch and no flux was even used .

The whole Vinegar steam up is to cover all bases because you may not be able to physically scrub it of have any idea what construction method was used .

In any case , as you seem likely to use this Aluminium pot despite the advice not to , I really don’t think that one Vinegar run will be a deal breaker .

Do it to get the job done and please try and get a Stainless steel pot as soon as you can .

And immediately after you do a vinegar run , rinse the copper in lots of water otherwise Copper Acetate crystals will start to form on the copper .

I really appreciate you, you explained very well and i got the answer at the edges of losing hope. Thank you.

[cob]

mah41; I am sure you are aware. But for every one else not in your country,

the penalties are extreme for alcohol consumption.

from wikipedia "In 2020, a Muslim man was executed at Mashhad Prison after being convicted of drinking alcohol for the sixth time, driving without a license and being in possession of alcohol."

Don't use an aluminum boiler please.

[tombombadil]

If aluminum is the only thing you can get then find another hobby.

[Kareltje]

I too do not like aluminium: it seems a unreliable material in this trade.
But also known materials are wood and iron. I know these are not recommended by this forum, but old submarine type stills were made just of these materials.
A few years ago this was discussed on HD: viewtopic.php?t=64535

And in the tv-series Moonshiners there was a season in which a whole herd of these was made and used. One of the old timers even knew the best kind of wood to use; learned it from his father.
And just like any other material: you have to treat your tools with care.

[RyanAnderson]

I really appreciate you, you explained very well and i got the answer at the edges of losing hope. Thank you.

This thread is the sort of pile-on that gets real old at HD. The guy has already said what he can and can't source, let it go. I'm sure he's also well aware of the legal status of distilling in his home country, as are we all.

mah41, welcome! Don't worry about your pot, roll with what you can get your hands on. This comes from someone who has degrees in both chemistry and materials science --- don't worry about it. There are no volatile aluminum compounds that you can make in a still. I would not use aluminum from pot outlet to spout (especially on the down side of the lyne arm), but it's fine for the pot. As others have said, you're going to have issues long term (or maybe short term, depending on how thick it is); it will corrode over time. But, drain and clean it ASAP after you distill and you should be good for a bit. Maybe bump the pH of the wash up above 5ish if you can before distilling, that would help with your pot life. Aluminum is pretty robust in the 4.5 - 7 pH range; it corrodes quickly much below pH 4.5. As for the copper lines, soak in vinegar if you can, and physically scrub out if you can, but then do a sacrificial sugar wash run and don't worry about it after that. Beyond that, don't worry about it, and have fun

[Laredo7mm]

This thread is the sort of pile-on that gets real old at HD.…

This is something I have noticed after signing up just a little while ago. A lot of virtue signaling going in in this forum. That’s fine if that is the way the owners’ want it to run, but it will severely limit the activity of the board in general, well at least my contributions. I don’t appreciate having my comments/opinions being called “misinformation.” I always thought that message boards were for the exchange of ideas and opinions to drive the conversation and experimentation, and not proliferating a certain dogma. But the response from the indoctrinated will be that I don’t understand premise of homedistiller.

[Sporacle]

I would not use aluminum from pot outlet to spout (especially on the down side of the lyne arm), but it's fine for the pot. As others have said, you're going to have issues long term (or maybe short term, depending on how thick it is); it will corrode over time. But, drain and clean it ASAP after you distill and you should be good for a bit. Maybe bump the pH of the wash up above 5ish if you can before distilling,

Hi Ryan

Given your background could you explain what happens to the particles from the aluminium when they do corrode if used as a pot?
Not piling on the OP I just suggested he not use an aluminium pot and maybe try to get a SS one

[RyanAnderson]

I would not use aluminum from pot outlet to spout (especially on the down side of the lyne arm), but it's fine for the pot. As others have said, you're going to have issues long term (or maybe short term, depending on how thick it is); it will corrode over time. But, drain and clean it ASAP after you distill and you should be good for a bit. Maybe bump the pH of the wash up above 5ish if you can before distilling,

Hi Ryan

Given your background could you explain what happens to the particles from the aluminium when they do corrode if used as a pot?
Not piling on the OP I just suggested he not use an aluminium pot and maybe try to get a SS one

No aluminum particles, per se. It's dissolved slowly (or sometimes quickly) by the acids in the wash making soluble aluminum compounds (lactates, acetates, hydroxy complexes mainly I would guess, maybe some citrate, chloride and sulfate, depending on initial ingredients). Most of those aren't particularly stable in hot water/ethanol, except the sulfate and chloride compounds, and mostly decompose into hydroxide/hyrdroxy compounds, which would look like a white sludge in a perfectly clear/clean wash. There aren't any volatile aluminum compounds under these conditions, so, baring a puke into the column, all the aluminum will stay put in the spent wash and go down the drain. All kinds of bad aluminum compounds that could form on the cold side (lyne arm on down, basically anywhere where vapor could condense and run towards the spout instead of the pot), which is why an aluminum condenser/column is a legitimately bad idea. So, bad for anywhere from the pot outlet on, not a huge deal for a pot, though the lifetime would probably suck, depending on what you were distilling and how acidic it was. In my, opinion, the only real safety issue with an aluminum pot would be it getting corroded to the point that is leaks and spills hot wash everywhere.

The "piling on" comment wasn't directed at an individual, sorry. Directed at the general vibe and trend I see in a lot of threads here (and all over the internet, tbh). Lots of awesome info and interaction here as well, the majority actually.

[Saltbush Bill]

In my, opinion, the only real safety issue with an aluminum pot would be it getting corroded to the point that is leaks and spills hot wash everywhere.

What if this aluminium boiler leaks above the liquid line and it's spilling hot ethanol vapour into a room , at the same time the boiler is being heated on an open flame?
Is that not a possibility?
Personally I 'd rather end up with hot wash on my foot than be engulfed in a ball of flame.
I say if you have the time to take up distilling as a hobby, you have the time to take the time to find/buy a stainless pot to use as a boiler.
My concern is only the safety aspect of acidic washes or mashes eating away at the pot.

[Steve Broady]

I’m just curious, since a boiler area relatively low pressure and temperature in normal use, could you make one out of a wooden barrel and seal it with flour paste where the copper vapor path enters? Maybe heat it with an electric element, or even a steam heat line from an external boiler.

[NZChris]

I’m just curious, since a boiler area relatively low pressure and temperature in normal use, could you make one out of a wooden barrel and seal it with flour paste where the copper vapor path enters? Maybe heat it with an electric element, or even a steam heat line from an external boiler.

That is a lot of trouble to go to when a simple stainless steel cooking pot and flour paste seals will work. That is what I use to build small gin stills and I have double distilled small batches of experimental washes in them.

In a country with laws and penalties like what mah41 has to live with, building something that is easy to dismantle and store in separate parts, in different locations, would be a wise move. Not distilling might be even wiser. The penalty for getting caught in NZ when I built my first still was only a hefty fine and confiscation, but I designed my still so that it could quickly be dismantled and spread around the property so that it would be difficult to prove that I owned a still.

[Yummyrum]

I’m just curious, since a boiler area relatively low pressure and temperature in normal use, could you make one out of a wooden barrel and seal it with flour paste where the copper vapor path enters? Maybe heat it with an electric element, or even a steam heat line from an external boiler.

Not a silly idea and certainly not new Steve .

Thecroweater ( was a great contributor and Mod here for
many years ) has coped shit ( we think its funny having a wooden boiler) on the Aussie forums for pointing out that Pussers Rum is famous for using Wooden boilers .

Stick a fire under it and indeed it’s stupid ….. but Steam driven ( even from an Aluminium boiler) , and its a damn good Idea .

The caveat is of cause , that there are no vapour leaks …… iff’n you are direct firing our Steam boiler in the same room , you might be back to square one with a potentially leaking boiler…. And Boom

Electric element in a wooden boiler … sure , why not . Don’t dry fire it . Grounding it is questionable . But maybe doable

[Steve Broady]

Interesting. It seems to me that it might be useful to at least have some suggestions of alternatives for possible in the OP’s situation. I’m sure there are some places in the world where sourcing approved materials to build or buy a boiler can be more or less impossible. Granted, I suspect they’re a minority, but I think we would be a bit more helpful and welcoming and informative if we could say “We strongly recommend Stainless and copper as the only safe boiler materials, but if for some reason you truly cannot get either, there might be another safe option in a pinch.” Safety is incredibly important, but we also need to acknowledge that not every place in the world has the same standards or products available. Sometimes that means that something is just not possible, but it might just mean that it takes a little more creativity and work to achieve a goal.

[mah41]

This thread is the sort of pile-on that gets real old at HD. The guy has already said what he can and can't source, let it go. I'm sure he's also well aware...

Thank you for the useful information.
There's a high chance that i'll get the aluminium but i'm trying to figure out if i can make one with a small steel pot i found, still expensive but maybe i'll do that, right now i'm searching for the copper output connections but i they're all brass, if this is what i'll end up doing, i'll probably end up brazing the pipe to the pot's door

[NZChris]

If you are looking at pressure cookers, you are making a mistake. There are cheaper and larger, and less dangerous pots available from the same shops.

[Niettemin]

Why don’t you buy an old boiler, copper pipes and make your own? Boilers have a copper pot on the inside. Just don’t solder it with lead containing products and you’ll have a safe and big still.

[Yummyrum]

Why don’t you buy an old boiler, copper pipes and make your own? Boilers have a copper pot on the inside. Just don’t solder it with lead containing products and you’ll have a safe and big still.

Not a bad idea Niettemin …. Good thinking outside the box .
I found this old 140 litre copper hot water tank at the tip years ago . Cost me $20 .

One day I hope to cut it down in size to maybe around 100litres so its a bit more useful for home distilling . But In think it will make a great Copper boiler . Its all Brazed together …. Not Lead soldered .

But that got me thinking . Back in New Zealand as a kid , a lot of house Laundries had an old Copper boiler that mother would light a fire under , inside a ( most Guaranteed Asbestos loaded cement firebox)and Chimney) to heat the water for washing and also household hot water .

The Aussies had a Gas heated version .

Both had a nice Copper pot inside and usually a Copper lid …. See where I’m going with this .

Just say’n ….. options

[cob]

I always thought that message boards were for the exchange of ideas and opinions to drive the conversation and experimentation, and not proliferating a certain dogma. But the response from the indoctrinated will be that I don’t understand premise of homedistiller.

When these boards were established 20+ years ago the primary purpose was to promote the safe home distillation of alcohol,

and to promote the legalization of the of the safe home distillation of alcohol. It was a very small site then and the focus was

clear. Then it grew like wildfire, and the newcomers did not research the history of the site, and you see the result. Anyone

with a keyboard can post almost anything they thought, heard, guessed, read on other boards, or saw on youtube. with no

relevance to the history or initial intended purpose of HD. what you see today is the evolution of a small dedicated forum

into the large lightly controlled jugernaught that it is today. What are you going to do to help guide it today?

Not all message boards are the same. Especially this one. Safety first always, and skip the aluminum boiler.

If the group that is here now had the dedication and focus on safety, and legalization, that the founders did

HD could have some real sway.