Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Himert
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am

Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Himert »

My conclusion from my small amount of destilling experience so far is that there is not a large variety in how my product is tasting after the heads and tails have been removed. I have destilled beer made from grains, wine, and sugar wash and the destillate tastes more or less the same from all of them.


I tried using different oak sticks for flavoring spirit made from sugar wash.
Oak that I got from a hardware store - resulted in very dark spirit with a bad wooden taste.
Bourbon barrel sticks - resulted in nice golden whisky flavored spirit.
Sherry barrel sticks - also whisky flavored and golden clour.

I would like to make something with the taste of cognac. Does anyone have a tip on how to achieve it?
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7657
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Yummyrum »

Are you using a Pot still or a Reflux still?
It sounds like you’re using a Reflux still . That would explain why it all tastes the same . .

Cognac and Whiskey’s are traditionally made in a Pot still .
JAMAWG
Novice
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:54 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by JAMAWG »

What kind of still are you useing?
If you want a cognac clone you need to pick a grape variety they use. There are a few. Double pot still it. And age in oak for a few years.

There a few youtube videos where they tour cognac distilleries.
Mossback moonshiner in Cascadia.
Himert
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Himert »

Thanks for the advice.
The still is modular and can be both pot and reflux but I think that ABV above 65-70% the product more or less tastes the same. Lower ABV gets more flavours but not enough to explain the huge difference in taste between whisky and cognac. I guess my question is; does most of the flavoring happen after the destillation, during the aging process? And if so, what is it that creates to the different flavors since both whisky and cognac are aged in oak barrels?
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9677
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Have you tried aging it for 2 or three years........a lot happens to a spirit in a barrel in that time.
You can't expect things to taste as you think they should when they are only weeks or months old.
Himert
Novice
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Himert »

No, I have only been into this for about 8 months and the first 4 months the spirit I made was hardly worth drinking. I have been using sticks and chips for 10-15 days duration mostly and it all tastes like whisky. This makes sense since I used oak from sherry and bourbon barrels. But is there a particular type of oak used to produce cognac flavour, except for oak barrels that previously has been used for aging cognac?
tombombadil
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:55 pm

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by tombombadil »

Cognac distilleries do a lot of blending and rebarreling over time too.
A lot more involved than what I've seen from the Whiskey makers.
I think it's called elivage?
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9677
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Himert wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:43 pm the first 4 months the spirit I made was hardly worth drinking
Four month wont be enough.
Himert wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:43 pm I have been using sticks and chips for 10-15 days duration mostly
Dont use chips......thats been proven time and again, to much surface area. 10 or 15 days is not long enough by any means. You need to use a little oak for a long time , not large amounts for a short time.
Himert wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:43 pm But is there a particular type of oak used to produce cognac flavour,
Ive not researched that but from memory Im pretty sure they use French/ European Oak.

Edit:
A quick look around the net tells me that it needs to be aged for at least two years to legally be called Cognac.
I also found this link which should answer some of your questions...........The internet is a marvelous, you need to learn to use it.
https://www.distilleriedupeyrat.com/cognac-ageing/ .......im sure there is a lot more out there if you look.
Reading all it the above link, tells me that there is much more to making Cognac taste like Cognac, than Running a wash through a still, then putting the results in a jar or bottle with a few oak chips..........Time is only one important factor.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by NZChris »

They should not all taste the same off the still.

You will have to look at each step in your processes to find out how, or where, you are losing, or diluting, your flavors.

If you want Cognac, research how it is made, what stills they use, how they run them, how they age them, then do what they do without taking any shortcuts.
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1051
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Steve Broady »

I found that when I first started distilling, everything tasted pretty much the same after a spirit run. Now, a year and a half or so later, that’s not even CLOSE to the case. I ascribe this to three things.

1, I had no idea what white spirits should taste like. My palate simply wasn’t tuned to it, because I had only ever tasted commercial products, most of which were barrel aged.

2, I had no idea what I was doing. I ran the still too hard, too fast, smeared the crap out of it, and everything tasted like heads and tails. That made the cuts much more difficult, and just generally made everything taste like crappy moonshine.

3, I had no idea what I was doing. I used mostly sugar, with a little grain for whiskey flavor, fruit for brandy flavor, or molasses for rum flavor. Unsurprisingly, all my flavored sugar washes tasted pretty similar, like subtly flavored sugar washes. Once I tried all grain, all fruit, and all molasses recipes, that changed drastically.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
User avatar
Stonecutter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:40 pm
Location: Somewhere within the Milkyway

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Stonecutter »

Himert wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:02 am
I tried using different oak sticks for flavoring spirit made from sugar wash.
Oak that I got from a hardware store - resulted in very dark spirit with a bad wooden taste.
Bourbon barrel sticks - resulted in nice golden whisky flavored spirit.
Sherry barrel sticks - also whisky flavored and golden clour.

I would like to make something with the taste of cognac. Does anyone have a tip on how to achieve it?
Himert wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:06 pm I guess my question is; does most of the flavoring happen after the destillation, during the aging process? And if so, what is it that creates to the different flavors since both whisky and cognac are aged in oak barrels?


The flavors that you taste in Whiskey or Brandy, apparently you prefer cognac, come from every part of the distillation process.

-Ingredient’s of the mash/wash
-mashout process or wine making process
-type of yeast being used
-fermentation environment
-Distillation Process
-Cuts
-Blending
-aging medium
-aging time (we’re talking in years)
-aging environment
-Blending

All of these things can play an important role in making a decent AND REPEATABLE drop.

In my limited reading and experience oaking and Distilling variables are going to play the biggest role in both and obviously the grain bill being a major contributor in Whiskey.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
User avatar
Renhoekk
Swill Maker
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:43 am

Re: Difference between flavoring whiskey and cognac?

Post by Renhoekk »

Just as there are lots of variables that create "whiskey", there are many factors that make cognac taste like cognac. The main ones are:

- Grape variety. True cognac is mostly Ugni blanc with a smattering of (typically) Folle blanche and Colombard. For us home distillers, look for anything that has a low-ish sugar content of 16-20 Brix and a pH around 3.5. Cognac grapes taste dry and acidic, so your supermarket grapes will likely be much sweeter because they're meant to be eaten (table grapes are around 23-25 Brix and pH 4.0)

- Fermentation. Large producers like to knock this over in about 5-7 days because time is $$$. Boutique producers can take up to 2 to 4 weeks, which is a lot longer than a typical whiskey ferment. The ferment finishes at 7-9% ABV

- Yeast. Usually a wine/champagne yeast that leans towards fruity and floral notes.

- Distillation. A cognac still is unique - that aside, the first run produces a low wine of about 30%. The second run with cuts usually comes in at around 70%. Some producers add heads and/or tails back into the first and/or second runs

- The lees. Some producers distil "on the lees", which is similar to distilling "on the grain" for whiskey

- Maturation is typically done in reused French oak casks. The spirit goes in around 65%. However, the cognac maturation process is complicated. Producers will often swap product between casks, reuse casks that previously held different wines and sherries, wet down their warehouses to increase humidity, dilute the barrel strength slowly over time and so on. Cognac needs a minimum of 2 years in a barrel.

Long story short: find a dry, acidic grape (or skip that and buy some cheap dry wine). Ferment it with a wine yeast. Distil it twice. Mature in French oak. You'll get something that tastes like cognac.
Post Reply