ferment won't start - looking for solutions

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vernue
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ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

I admit failure! My mash has defeated me! Anyone have any good advice?

I’m speaking of two identical vats of rye mash, same protocol for each as described below. One has fermented down to 1.00, the other stubbornly holding at 1.055, and as sweet as it was on mash day. It refuses to ferment.

My rye protocol is always the same: I cook the rye and corn separately. I use barley to convert the rye: after an hour rest at 100F (I don’t have my notes with me, but about that), I heat the rye up in a double boiler (how long did it take me to realize that my big pots fit nicely one inside the other to make a perfect double boiler and never have to worry again about scorching the rye? About 3 years) to 160F til it is thick as porridge, let it cool down to 145F or so and add the barley. Cover and wait while hitting it periodically with the drill paddle. Iodine test great, mash as sweet as molasses. That’s step 1.

Step 2: heat water up to 185F or so, add HT amylase, dump in corn meal and paddle til smooth. after conversion cool it with remainder of water down to 160F (if i remember right) and add gluco-amylase. Sweet as honey. Then I dump the two together, hit it one last time with the paddle, and let it cool overnight. next morning pitched the yeast. Temperatures being a bit cool in my shed, I used US 05 instead of bakers yeast, and the temp of the mash was in the sweet spot. My shed is insulated and I have a good radiator heater there, and I was able to keep temps pretty constant. One vat fermented dry, the other will not, though I asked nicely and added more and more yeast, and baker’s yeast as well. And additional doses of gluco, though I’m not sure the mash is warm enough for the gluco to be effective.

In the same shed, I had 200 l of single malt and 50 l of wheat whiskey, all of which were fermenting at the same time and did just fine.

Seems like I have a vat of unfermentable sugars there - should I heat it up again and hit it with more gluco? Do you see anything in my protocol that might cause this - except for human error? I use a check-list so I don’t have to rely on memory - doing two batches side by side I know i’d get confused. But I may have gotten confused anyways.

Any advice or ideas for a solution welcome.
Both me and my whiskey are ageing. I hope my whiskey finishes first.
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EricTheRed
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by EricTheRed »

Add more gluco at current temp.
If the original gluco was denatured earlier this will sort that out.
Gluco will work at room temp, just a bit slower
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by HDNB »

160 too hot for gluco. try 150 next time.

i've had a couple rye mashes do similar things for no reason i could figger.

if it's sweet, i'd try making a small yeast starter with some of it at 100-105 and see if the yest takes off. maybe half gallon of mash in a gallon pail

flaked rye? ground grain? or malt rye? i wouldn't worry too much about gelatinizing it. it's getts goopy just fine on a short cook to 160.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

Thanks Red - I've tried that, but to no effect whatsoever.

HDNS - I twas thinking of trying that - bringing some in the house and experimenting til I got results. My wife can't stand the smell of mash though.

I use unmalted rye. I like the flavor of it - less spicy and more earthy. Had issues grinding it, even with a MM2 pro. had to go back to my old Victoria grinder.

Was it you that said how to not have a stuck ferment: figure out what you did wrong and don't do it the next time?

But as you indicate, it just might be part of the makin' rye blues. einstein said (or someone like him) that insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results. making rye is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same results. wish i didn't like rye so much.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Ben »

If it tasted sweet to start you had something in there that was fermentable. How does it taste now?
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

still tastes sweet. actually, let me go check.

sweet and a bit sour. hydrometer is at 1.06 after temp correction.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

and it dries sticky on my hand - there's sugar there. it just doesn't want to ferment.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Twisted Brick »

HDNB wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:25 pm
if it's sweet, i'd try making a small yeast starter with some of it at 100-105 and see if the yest takes off. maybe half gallon of mash in a gallon pail
+1

If you feel the need to, you can sanitize your starter wort by gently bringing up to 170F. This will elevate the gravity slightly. Then, reduce the gravity of your starter to 1.030 before pitching. If ya got one, a sanitized gallon wine jug with airlock works great.

Don't forget to re-aerate your main wash when pitching the starter.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

I'll give it a shot - thanks.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

I tried what you suggested, down to the last detail, and no fermentation.i even warmed it, added more sebstar gl - no joy. added sugar,, no change. IDK - i'm out of ideas.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

i even chilled it a bit more and used US-05. a waste of yeast.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by subbrew »

Is your other ferment going strong? or is it done? If the other is actively fermenting you could take a gallon or two of the active ferment and add to the stuck one. Or if it is done you could rack off the done beer and rack the stuck wort onto the used grain bed which would be loaded with yeast.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

yeah, the other container fermented dry within 10 days. I could try that - certainly it will not do any damage. Thanks.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by still_stirrin »

Subbrew is onto something Vernue. You may have a “dead fermenter”, or something was inoculated in it that kills live yeast.

Sounds like the mash was proper, so the problem must be after that step.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

ss - that's what worries me. I think you're right, there's something in there that is killing the yeast. I've never heard of anything like this before - but I think I may have experienced it on a smaller scale when I was first starting out. I figured I had done something stupid and dumped the bucket out. Could it be a sanitation issue, you think? I wonder if boiling it would sanitize it completely, kill whatever kooties are slaughtering my yeasts. I think I'll try that with a small amount before I dump the wort on to the grainbed of the fermented container. Although at this point, either subbrew's idea will work - or it won't and I'll just start another ferment tomorrow. The frustrating thing is not knowing why.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Dee Envy »

I found through the years is using a chlorine based cleaner stalls yeast if the vessel is not rinsed out enough.
For my wines I found this to be the case quite often. I went back to using oxyclean for cleaning, and sodium metabisulfate to sterilize/sanitize wine vessels, as well as StarSan for beer and washes.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

I have starsan but I admit to not always being diligent about using it. I guess I will be now...

My impression is that many of the distillers here do not follow a strict sanitation regimen. Is that so or am I just projecting my own laziness onto others?
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Dee Envy »

Personally I like to clean all my vessels. Gets rid of the crap.
As far as sanitizing goes, I am less diligent with the distilling fermenters than I am with wine or beer. The latter two would not last very long without sanitizing the vessels.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

yes, that is what I also understood. thanks for your knowledge.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by still_stirrin »

Vernue,

Is does not take much chlorine to kill yeast. If you have a fermenter that was sanitized with dilute chlorine, but not rinsed thoroughly or dried afterwards, then a few ml could effectively kill your yeast.

And, I don’t know if boiling the wort would be effective to “revitalize” it so you could repitch. My gut says, “maybe”. I have not had the problem you’ve experienced because I pay attention to the protocols preceeding fermentation. Avoid the problems by not getting into them.

But, there are other chemicals that could steralize a wort. If you ferment in plastic, sometimes the plastic can hold chemicals in the fibers. For this reason, glass fermenters (carboys) or stainless steel fermenters are much more popular with homebrewers.

Regardless, it is worth fumbling with the stalled mash simply because the alternative is to dump it and write it off as a loss.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

yes, I 'm thinking now that I procured this blue plastic barrel from a friend who produced wine for several years but has left off from it - he may well have sanitized his equipment with chlorine. I'll ask him today - that may well solve the mystery, Thanks for your help and advice. - Vern
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Demy »

Have you checked your PH well?
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

yep. first thing.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by Goonshine »

Demy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:49 am Have you checked your PH well?
I did a plum mash recently, didn't check ph, 30hrs later still hadn't started.
Turns out plums are more acidic then oranges, plus you have to use so many of them as they have almost no sugar...high 2's, low 3's on the ph scale.
I was going to cut my losses, but thought about adjusting ph... little baking soda, little stir, took right off, didn't even have to add any more yeast.
Dunno how it's going to turn out, might be fine, might be terrible, but I'll have something to work with at least.
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Re: ferment won't start - looking for solutions

Post by vernue »

there is no better feeling that encountering a problem and solving it. good going!
Both me and my whiskey are ageing. I hope my whiskey finishes first.
5 g. clawhammer
50 l. homemade pot still
5 l alembic for alchemy and experiments
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