Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by BoomTown »

Oak surface + Time = Whiskey
Oak surface + Time = Whiskey
Something I needed to know…
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by still_stirrin »

Boomtown,
That chart has been around a while. It does demonstrate an analytic method to correlate small cask to large cask aging.

However, there are more factors to consider than just surface area and volume ratio. Environmental conditions (temperature & relative humidity) as well as “entry proof” will affect aging quality. However, time certainly does affect the process and the surface to volume ratio does impact that empirically, at least, meaning that maturity is somewhat subjective and it’s not just a bunch of calculations.

It is with note that your thread starts with “aging in glass jars”, which is different than aging in an oak cask. Evaporation and oxygenation of the spirit is different in glass than it is in wood. So, the “numbers” presented are not all together accurate. In some instances, they may not be relevant at all, so I’d just caution you to experiment a little before you gamble a lot.

I’ve found that aging in glass can be controlled quite well, but it does take a little practice before you fully understand its effectiveness. When aging in glass, you use much less wood, so the time to maturity can and will most likely be much longer. Also, aging in glass does not have the same “air exchange” that a cask would present, so periodic agitation and oxygenation might help with the aging process.

Finally, thank you for looking up the chart and reminding us all how “size matters”. It is something that the new hobbyists may not be aware of, or fully understand. It is another “piece of the puzzle” for the “picture” we’re making here.
ss


AGING-OF-WHISKEY-SPIRITS-IN-BARRELS-OF-NON-TRADITIONAL-VOLUME.pdf
Barrel Aging
(963.2 KiB) Downloaded 268 times
This document has some good info in it to for non-conventional aging methods.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by BoomTown »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:19 pm Boomtown,
That chart has been around a while. It does demonstrate an analytic method to correlate small cask to large cask aging.

However, there are more factors to consider than just surface area and volume ratio. Environmental conditions (temperature & relative humidity) as well as “entry proof” will affect aging quality. However, time certainly does affect the process and the surface to volume ratio does impact that empirically, at least, meaning that maturity is somewhat subjective and it’s not just a bunch of calculations.

It is with note that your thread starts with “aging in glass jars”, which is different than aging in an oak cask. Evaporation and oxygenation of the spirit is different in glass than it is in wood. So, the “numbers” presented are not all together accurate. In some instances, they may not be relevant at all, so I’d just caution you to experiment a little before you gamble a lot.

I’ve found that aging in glass can be controlled quite well, but it does take a little practice before you fully understand its effectiveness. When aging in glass, you use much less wood, so the time to maturity can and will most likely be much longer. Also, aging in glass does not have the same “air exchange” that a cask would present, so periodic agitation and oxygenation might help with the aging process.

Finally, thank you for looking up the chart and reminding us all how “size matters”. It is something that the new hobbyists may not be aware of, or fully understand. It is another “piece of the puzzle” for the “picture” we’re making here.
ss



AGING-OF-WHISKEY-SPIRITS-IN-BARRELS-OF-NON-TRADITIONAL-VOLUME.pdf

This document has some good info in it to for non-conventional aging methods.
More “good to know”, am enjoying the read of the PDF you provided, too!
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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Some interesting reading there SS :thumbup:
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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still_stirrin wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:19 pm I’ve found that aging in glass can be controlled quite well, but it does take a little practice before you fully understand its effectiveness. When aging in glass, you use much less wood, so the time to maturity can and will most likely be much longer. Also, aging in glass does not have the same “air exchange” that a cask would present, so periodic agitation and oxygenation might help with the aging process.
I've had really good results aging in glass. It is much easier to control, and to adjust as you go. One thing I've found is that champagne corks from larger format bottlings, create an excellent seal in the neck of traditional glass carboys. I tried leaving about 10" of headroom, periodically agitating the carboy then removing cork to "refresh" the air supply. The results have been surprisingly effective and easy.

Re size: the same method works well in 1 gal growlers, which coincidently have a similar diameter mouth as traditional glass carboys.

20230902_144429.jpg
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Deplorable »

Ratbastrd wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:43 pm
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:19 pm I’ve found that aging in glass can be controlled quite well, but it does take a little practice before you fully understand its effectiveness. When aging in glass, you use much less wood, so the time to maturity can and will most likely be much longer. Also, aging in glass does not have the same “air exchange” that a cask would present, so periodic agitation and oxygenation might help with the aging process.
I've had really good results aging in glass. It is much easier to control, and to adjust as you go. One thing I've found is that champagne corks from larger format bottlings, create an excellent seal in the neck of traditional glass carboys. I tried leaving about 10" of headroom, periodically agitating the carboy then removing cork to "refresh" the air supply. The results have been surprisingly effective and easy.

Re size: the same method works well in 1 gal growlers, which coincidently have a similar diameter mouth as traditional glass carboys.


20230902_144429.jpg
Many here age in 1G glass jugs. Me included. I like to split about 6 quarts between two jugs and add 3 sticks of my favorite charred oak to each one. I shake them when I pass by and exchange the air. It works for me, and I enjoy the spirits aged this way, but nothing beats time in a barrel.
I have 8 gallon jugs currently, with a need for 4 more. These will feed my 5 gallon barrels as I pull off of them.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by NZChris »

Aging in glass is a different game to aging in barrels and has nothing to do with the chart posted.

It's not as simple as chucking a calculated surface area worth of the appropriately prepared wood into a full demijohn, banging a cork into it and hoping for the best. It's about simulating, to the best of your ability, the conditions in a barrel in the climate at the latitude in which the product is normally aged, plus ensuring that the air exchange and Angels Share occur at the appropriate rates.

I'm sure that there are no 'secrets' to aging in glass that haven't been posted on this forum at various times by various members.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Ratbastrd »

NZChris wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:23 pm Aging in glass is a different game to aging in barrels and has nothing to do with the chart posted.

It's not as simple as chucking a calculated surface area worth of the appropriately prepared wood into a full demijohn, banging a cork into it and hoping for the best. It's about simulating, to the best of your ability, the conditions in a barrel in the climate at the latitude in which the product is normally aged, plus ensuring that the air exchange and Angels Share occur at the appropriate rates.

I'm sure that there are no 'secrets' to aging in glass that haven't been posted on this forum at various times by various members.
True. I think the point I was trying to make, is that it is preferrable in some circumstances for home brewers to use glass for aging, rather then introducing another variable, wasting time and money on barrels (particularly in the early learning cycles). Having read through as many of the threads on aging in glass as I can, I often felt discouraged from using glass.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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NZChris wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:23 pm It's not as simple as chucking a calculated surface area worth of the appropriately prepared wood into a full demijohn, banging a cork into it and hoping for the best.
Thank you for this, Chris. A very succinct reminder that I need to tend to my spirits during agin, which I’ve been neglecting. It’s easy to forget that care is needed in EVERY age of the process.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:43 am rather then introducing another variable, wasting time and money on barrels (particularly in the early learning cycles).
Imo barrels are far from a waste of time or money, nothing else works as well for aging booze. I aged in glass using oak sticks for quite a few years, nothing I ever did or tried matched barrel ageing.
Big commercial distilleries are always trying to save a buck, they spend millions on oak barrels.
If there was an easier and cheaper alternative that worked as well and saved them money by using glass or stainless containers for aging, then I'm sure they would have been doing it that way for years.
Must be a reason that they dont ?
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Ratbastrd »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:30 pm
Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:43 am rather then introducing another variable, wasting time and money on barrels (particularly in the early learning cycles).
Imo barrels are far from a waste of time or money, nothing else works as well for aging booze. I aged in glass using oak sticks for quite a few years, nothing I ever did or tried matched barrel ageing.
Big commercial distilleries are always trying to save a buck, they spend millions on oak barrels.
If there was an easier and cheaper alternative that worked as well and saved them money by using glass or stainless containers for aging, then I'm sure they would have been doing it that way for years.
Must be a reason that they dont ?
I think we are debating different points. Clearly a barrel (or similar format) is the best medium for aging spirits, not suggesting otherwise.

The problem for the novice/hobbyist distiller is volume of spirit produced, frequency of production, consumption habits etc. Glass carboys, jugs et al are essentially free if you know where to look. Oak staves, chips etc. are also cheap/free and readily available, plus there is an abundance of good information online on how to get the best results using the combination. Maybe not the best, but IMO a good place to start early in the learning process.

I'll quit hijacking the thread now.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Demy »

I also believe that the volume is the point .... for example, I produce a few liters so the barrel is not convenient (at least to find something tiny).. of course a barrel will give better results even if the glass gives you the possibility of play with the variations (wood mix, toasting, quantity, etc.)
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Bushman »

If you use the Solera method of aging you can always pull part of it out early and still be building up stock. Below is a link to the solera method using glass jars. I use this but end in a barrel or barrels for the final product.
Solera
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Windy City »

If you are looking to age in glass, this is a pretty comprehensive thread.
viewtopic.php?t=50348
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Bushman wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:14 am If you use the Solera method of aging you can always pull part of it out early and still be building up stock. Below is a link to the solera method using glass jars. I use this but end in a barrel or barrels for the final product.
Solera
Solera method when using glass is my go-to if I can make enough of the primary house spirits - Ending in a used BadMo for the finishing blend. There are no rules that the finishing has to be from the last in the solera if you want to blend differently. Different wood profiles in each jug helps IMO - I'm also starting an "oak extract" jar to add some into the finishing barrel where I fill a jar with a mix of alligator char and toasted oak that I top up with new make (wine, port, whatever) - A dram or four of this into the BadMo plus some time to meld...

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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:30 pm
Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:43 am rather then introducing another variable, wasting time and money on barrels (particularly in the early learning cycles).
Imo barrels are far from a waste of time or money, nothing else works as well for aging booze. I aged in glass using oak sticks for quite a few years, nothing I ever did or tried matched barrel ageing.
Big commercial distilleries are always trying to save a buck, they spend millions on oak barrels.
If there was an easier and cheaper alternative that worked as well and saved them money by using glass or stainless containers for aging, then I'm sure they would have been doing it that way for years.
Must be a reason that they dont ?
Well, those big boys do have a motivator for using oak barrels, aside from achieving barrel aged booze…ther is a law saying they are required to use new oak barrels to produce bourbons, though Whisky aged in oak allows use of used barrels. And then there is the re-aging process (Maker’s Mark comes to mind) when their barrel aged spirit is exposed the French brandy barrel staves…

My commitment to use of glass is a compromise driven more because of the gasses escaping through oak barrels permeate the storage area with the aroma of whiskey, that complicates live on the 15th floor of our apartment building. The posting I fostered is an excellent discussion of methods, and not the solution for everyone.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Mr_Beer »

Very interesting thread.
Thanks to still-stirrin for the reference to the .pdf document. Good information

As a point to think about, some folks do not have the time horizon for multi-year ageing because of their age or possibly storage circumstance.
So the next approach is to use glass. Not as good as it could be but a compromise from the optimal.

This is a related question.
I currently use quart mason jars for storage/ageing. The contents are about 60 ABV with one or several sticks ov various woods that have been charred or otherwise processed. Since I am a newbie, I am trying to get a sense of what wood is preferable and how much char is desirable for my taste.

The emphasis in this thread is the ability to 'breath' -- have some oxygen exchange.
I leave the lids on the mason jars loose and do not tighten the lids. Will that loose lid approach be acceptable for oxygen exchange or should I drill a very small hole in the lids?

As always opinions are solicited
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

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Mr_Beer wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:26 pm Very interesting thread.
Thanks to still-stirrin for the reference to the .pdf document. Good information

As a point to think about, some folks do not have the time horizon for multi-year ageing because of their age or possibly storage circumstance.
So the next approach is to use glass. Not as good as it could be but a compromise from the optimal.

This is a related question.
I currently use quart mason jars for storage/ageing. The contents are about 60 ABV with one or several sticks ov various woods that have been charred or otherwise processed. Since I am a newbie, I am trying to get a sense of what wood is preferable and how much char is desirable for my taste.

The emphasis in this thread is the ability to 'breath' -- have some oxygen exchange.
I leave the lids on the mason jars loose and do not tighten the lids. Will that loose lid approach be acceptable for oxygen exchange or should I drill a very small hole in the lids?

As always opinions are solicited
Since I'm newer than a freshly minted penny to wood ageing, I'm also trying to get a handle on what works for my tastes.

On the understanding that breathing is of great importance, I've just been following a stupid simple routine that works for me at the moment with the fairly low volume of product I'm ageing, at this stage in my distilling journey.
All my spirits with oak staves in, go into what we call "Demijohns" here in the UK, but I think are just called gallon jugs in the US. They have one or two glass finger rings at the top to help grip.

I have them in full gallon size and half gallon, I fill them to the shoulder or below so there's lots of headspace, and cork the top.

I have them all lined up on a rack in my garage, and every time I go past I just uncork one, give it an aggressive swirl to aerate it and have a good a sniff, and recork.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Deplorable »

+1 to what Mooseman said.
I've turned out some really approachable glass aged whiskey in 10 to 12 months using 1 gallon jugs.
My fermenter is 30 gallons. I mash 50 pounds of grain in about 23 gallons of water and yield about 1.5 gallons of finished spirits after cuts for aging at ~60%. I split that between 2 jugs and add 3 fingers of toasted and charred oak to each. They are corked with natural cork stoppers with a small slit up the side.
I frequently remove the cork, agitate them, and put them back on the shelf. I start tasting them at around 9 months, and usually around 10 months, they're good enough to start pulling a bottle here and there. None of what I've aged in glass to date has made it more than about 18 to 20 months before its gone.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by NormandieStill »

Deplorable wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:56 pmNone of what I've aged in glass to date has made it more than about 18 to 20 months before its gone.
I find this reassuring. I'm in the same boat.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Mr_Beer »

My first post must have been to long.

The emphasis in this thread is the ability to 'breath' -- have some oxygen exchange.
I leave the lids on quart sized mason jars loose and do not tighten the lids. They sit in a pole barn while ageing packed inside some covered totes.

Will that loose lid approach be acceptable for oxygen exchange or should I drill a very small hole in the lids as the equivalent of a slit in a cork opening?

As always opinions are solicited
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I don't use mason jars for aging due to the stock materials on the underside of the lid not being 100% stainless or PTFE material. I don;t want plastics to be in contact with my likker for extended aging periods (or short periods for that matter).

I did pick up some toasted oak and cherry discs fitted for a large mouth mason jar that I have been experimenting with - I keep them upright (not on their side or they'll leak) and have been aging a few things as experiments. Seems to work well and I'm using them for most mason jar needs now. Mostly for breathability through the wood (not oaking since it's not in contact with the likker in my setup).

Other folks use PTFE liners and might poke a hole in them. I also picked up some widgetco corks sized for mason jars that work for short term but don't fit as snug as i'd like..

As far as how much air exchange is not enough, just right, or too much - It's a hard thing to measure and quantify. I go with regular testing to keep on top of it :)

For most aging and storage I use Barrels (Gibbs & BadMo), Gallon & Half Gallon jugs, and large widemouth gallon jars with a large cork. The mason jars are typically too small but I do use them for extracts and small one-off things...

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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by still_stirrin »

Mr_Beer wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:26 pm… The emphasis in this thread is the ability to 'breath' -- have some oxygen exchange.

I leave the lids on the mason jars loose and do not tighten the lids. Will that loose lid approach be acceptable for oxygen exchange or should I drill a very small hole in the lids?
The “angels” will LOVE your still shack! For oxygen/air exchange, it is probably adequate to “shake” the jars periodically/weekly and open the lids to allow the volatile vapors to escape. But, I wouldn’t leave the jars open otherwise, because the alcohol will evaporate slowly as well. And that will tend to “water-down” your spirits.

Also, keep in mind that wood chunks or dominoes will expand during soaking in the spirts, so make sure you account for that when cutting wood to insert into the jars. I use chunks made from used whiskey barrels in 2 liter mason jars. I had a couple of chunks that expanded enough that I could not get them “fished” out of the jar after aging the whiskey. I had to drain the liquor and then used a hacksaw to cut the wood into smaller pieces…kind of like building a “ship in a bottle”, only in reverse order. Tricky!

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:48 am…I go with regular testing to keep on top of it :)
+1 jonny.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Deplorable »

To the OPs point, if you're using mason jars, put a ptfe liner between the lid and the jar and leave the ring a smidgen loose. Be mindful of alcohol evaporation.
I don't see a reason to poke holes in an otherwise usefull ptfe disc.
And if you can get hold of half gallon or 1 gallon jugs, move to those. You can better control the outcome in my opinion.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Mr_Beer »

Thanks to all who offered their views.

To put out the mini-fires that may start, I do use PTFE liners for the mason jars based on this forum recommendations.
However, I am blessed with about 11 cases (130+) of quart mason jars, lids and rings. They make nice storage size, are easy to handle and wood chunks fit inside without any concern about removal. Most importantly, they fit in the dishwasher and they fit my style/space for storage.

On a personal basis, I am almost rabid when it comes to larger glass carboys and jars. A fellow in our brew club almost lost his arm to a trip and slip with a glass carboy. From that point forward we banned all glass carboys from any club events. So, I want smaller glass containers -- sort of paranoia on my part.

What I learned here is that there is no substitute from periodic 'checking' of each jar -- loosen and then tighten the lids to get some oxygen inside and avoid excessive evaporation.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by Renhoekk »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:30 pm Big commercial distilleries are always trying to save a buck, they spend millions on oak barrels.
If there was an easier and cheaper alternative that worked as well and saved them money by using glass or stainless containers for aging, then I'm sure they would have been doing it that way for years.
Must be a reason that they dont ?
Often because they’re not allowed to, Salty. Scotch isn’t legally Scotch unless it’s matured in oak barrels of 700L or less; American whiskey has to be matured in new, unused charred oak barrels; Australia is a bit looser but it still says matured “in wood” to meet the definition as a whiskey or rum.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by rubberduck71 »

still_stirrin wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:54 am Also, keep in mind that wood chunks or dominoes will expand during soaking in the spirts, so make sure you account for that when cutting wood to insert into the jars. I use chunks made from used whiskey barrels in 2 liter mason jars. I had a couple of chunks that expanded enough that I could not get them “fished” out of the jar after aging the whiskey. I had to drain the liquor and then used a hacksaw to cut the wood into smaller pieces…kind of like building a “ship in a bottle”, only in reverse order. Tricky!
+1 to this -- I had similar experience. I put an Irish style whiskey into 3 gal jugs with some purchased oak spirals. They went in easily enough, but swelled & were too thick to come back out. I let them air dry (bottle was empty -- HA! Go figure...) for about 2 weeks & was able to get them out.
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Re: Secrets (well maybe not) to aging in Glass Jars

Post by The Booze Pipe »

Deplorable wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:56 pm +1 to what Mooseman said.
I've turned out some really approachable glass aged whiskey in 10 to 12 months using 1 gallon jugs.
My fermenter is 30 gallons. I mash 50 pounds of grain in about 23 gallons of water and yield about 1.5 gallons of finished spirits after cuts for aging at ~60%. I split that between 2 jugs and add 3 fingers of toasted and charred oak to each. They are corked with natural cork stoppers with a small slit up the side.
I frequently remove the cork, agitate them, and put them back on the shelf. I start tasting them at around 9 months, and usually around 10 months, they're good enough to start pulling a bottle here and there. None of what I've aged in glass to date has made it more than about 18 to 20 months before its gone.
I follow similar procedures. I’m currently drinking a 37 month glass aged (toasted & charred) and I have another one gallon approaching that 36 month point. I’m a believer in ‘time’ it does the spirit well.
13.5g/50L keg boiler
copper pot still
modular 3" CCVM copper&stainless w/offset gin head
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